What is funk?

[Deke]

This one's carried forward from the Tower of Power forum pages (Since most people will agree that ToP are the living embodiment of funk) but what exactly is funk?

When I was at school a 'blue funk' was a case of panic initiated bottom burping (Not being too techinical am I?), and I believe I remember hearing the term 'Funky' used to describe a slightly whiffy atmosphere in an old black and white film, so I assume that 'funky' in musical terms means 'Doesn't stink', much as 'Ba-a-ad' means 'Terrific!', but when you pick up a 'funky' record or one labled 'File under Funk', what do you expect to get out of it?

Let's get the funny answers over and done with first.

Brain death. A communicable disease. Dirty hands. Pop music. Carry on...:D

[bluenoter]

Deke--We in the United States grew up with funk. I think it'll be tough to explain what it is. (I certainly can't.)

Pardon me if you know this, but non-jazz-related messages belong in the forum called the Alley, not here in Speak Out. (Funk as a topic is sort of a gray area, I suppose.)

[Tanager]

I am pretty sure that not *everyone* in the US grew up with Funk. :)

(I grew up in Washington, D.C., so I did grow up with it, however.)

[Pete C]

Originally posted by Tanager
(I grew up in Washington, D.C., so I did grow up with it, however.)

http://www.stonesthrow.com/images/funkaho/FUNK-flash-72.gif

[Pete C]

Originally posted by bluenoter
Deke--Pardon me if you know this, but non-jazz-related messages belong in the forum called the Alley, not here in Speak Out. (Funk as a topic is sort of a gray area, I suppose.)

If eai belongs here, funk is a no-brainer...

http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/uli-blocks32.gif

[Uli]

Originally posted by Pete C
If eai belongs here, funk is a no-brainer...

http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/uli-blocks32.gif

omygod, we've been outed!

if lowercase belongs here, everything belongs here.

[GoodSpeak]

[heaviest of sighs]

[graypencil]

Just to actually address the question at hand ( as opposed to all the posturing and one liners so far ): :)

Musically , "funk" can refer to the groove, rhythmic conventions, the harmonic context ( lots of use of sevenths, blues scales, etc. ), and performance attitude .. some may be present , others not ..

Musically, obviously derived from 60s R&B , the first jazz hybrids of it included the "soul jazz " stuff of the same period ( Guys like Horace Silver, Bobby Timmons, early Joe Zawinul w/ Cannon etc. )

Later on, the rhythms got more complex ( lotsa 16th note patterns , Thumb pop bass contributed by Sly's Larry Graham, and the great drummers like Clyde Stubblefield , Bernard Purdie, et al ..) Jazzwise, this became prevalent in the styles of guys like BS&T, DReams, Stuff, Tom Scott, and most noticeably later Miles ..

Finally, it's my opinion that REAL funk must be played by actual humans ..sequenced machine stuff just doesn't make one do the booty thing, IMO ..

[Al in NYC]

The true meaning of the word "funk" is a stink, like an earthy smell )or an emotional depression). Applied to music that means its sound is evocotively earthy and elemental -- "low down" in more pejorative terms.

(Why do I feel like I'm explaining "red" or "happy"?)


"They call it the White House, but that's just a temporary condition..."

[Ron Thorne]

GS, I'm disappointed that your only response on this thread was your patented "heaviest of sighs". What? No glowing TOP reviews/recommendations, just for starters?

What is funk?

Well, it could be something powered via Oakland, ala TOP, or James Brown, The Allman Brothers or Whitesnake.

Different strokes ...

Tower of Power
Average White Band
Bootsy Collins
Parliament
Edgar Winter's White Trash
George Clinton and the P-Funk All-Stars
Chaka Khan and Rufus
EW&F

Those are a few of my favorite funksters, among many.

[Tanager]

Chuck Brown and the Soul Searchers, baby.

Grandmaster Flash.

Billy Preston, Earth, Wind, & Fire, Dennis Coffey, Fishbone.

Con Funk Shun, the Commodores,

The Gap Band, Cameo, Graham Central Station...

SLY!

Funkadelic, for my $$$ the best of the Clinton funkiverse.

Plus everyone Ron said...and then some.

There's really a whole mess of truly skank-nasty funk out there, thank God.

[Gary Sisco]

Two words: James Brown

[Pete C]

A lot of those old bands are very active on the festival circuit, hence in recent years I've seen Tower of Power, George Clinton & P-Funk, ConFunkShun, EW&F, and two rival versions of War.

[Dr Dave]

OOhh...what is Funk? Funk is the blues in super-syncopated form. Funk is dance music built on an ostinato bass with machine-like (but not mechanical!) drum support. Funk is an essential ingredient of jazz, in my opinion. People who dissed Johua Redman's "Freedom in the Groove" didn' have enough Funk in their regular diets. Funk supplements may be necessary, beginning with several heaping tablespoons of Grant Green's "Carryin' On" and perhaps a steaming hot infusion of Lee Morgan's "The Sidewinder." For truly serious cases, as Gary has pointed out, long rehabilitation sessions with mid-'60s James Brown may be required.

[Sergio Zamora]

It's name is the one. Some people call it the funk.

[Deke]

Wow. I'm a little surprised in a way to find that the concensus is pretty similar to the views expressed on the Tower of Power site, except they don't know quite so many jazz characters.

The real blocker to me is always the same one. James Brown. He has always been rock'n'roll to me. And getting Clyde to write down some of Tony Allen's drum patterns and then replay them over and over and ov... you get the drift, seems to me to be the pre-digital version of looping.

Can't remember who said what, but whomsoever declared that machines can't play funk, I am with you man!!! When machines can think, they can think about playing funk, until then it will remain a purely human pastime :)

Finally, on the subject of whether I should have posted this here, I did wonder, but then I thought Brecker Brothers, Miles Davis, Tower of Power, Lee Ritenour... Tell you what. Maybe we should do a thread on 'What is jazz?'

Incidentally, the earliest funky record I've heard is a 78 that my father had. It was recorded in 1938 if my memory serves me well. 'Sun Dance' by Chief Os-ko-mon. Can anyone beat that?

[Tanager]

Originally posted by Deke
The real blocker to me is always the same one. James Brown. He has always been rock'n'roll to me.

By this I take it you mean that James is not a Minister of Funk of the first order?

Say three Cold Sweats in penance, and by all means,

GIT UP OFFA THAT THING!

[Jason Bivins]

Chuck Brown, baby! "Mastercard, Visa, American Express. I ain't got nothing' 'gainst no credit cards, but the cash is the best."

My personal pantheon: JB, Funkadelic/Parliament (in that order), Sly, Curtis Mayfield. Many others, but those are the big four.

The Head Maggot Overlord never directly responded to the question "what is funk?" but Funkadelic did respond to - and named a song - "What is Soul?"

I quote:

"Soul is a ham hock in your cornflakes. Soul is chitlins foo yung."

[graypencil]

Originally posted by Deke
Wow. I'm a little surprised in a way to find that the concensus is pretty similar to the views expressed on the Tower of Power site, except they don't know quite so many jazz characters.

The real blocker to me is always the same one. James Brown. He has always been rock'n'roll to me. And getting Clyde to write down some of Tony Allen's drum patterns and then replay them over and over and ov... you get the drift, seems to me to be the pre-digital version of looping.

Can't remember who said what, but whomsoever declared that machines can't play funk, I am with you man!!! When machines can think, they can think about playing funk, until then it will remain a purely human pastime :)





Deke: the machine observation would be me ..after some 30 years of working in studios with both human ..AND bloody machines , there's no doubt whick I prefer ..

BTW: dont forget **STUFF** ..in yer list of all time champeen muthafunkers :D

[Tanager]

Since Jason had the taste to include Washington, D.C.'s own Chuck Brown (and the Soul Searchers), let's also include:

Trouble Funk
Experience Unlimited

[Jason Bivins]

Tanager, did you ever hear "Go-go Drug Free"? An incredible single - from '87 or '88 - pairing EU with Mr. Mayor, Marion Barry. Mayor Barry actually rapped on this one, and I believe his rhyme went: "I'm Marion Barry and this is my rap. Don't want no drugs in the nation's cap." Fucking epic.

[Jim Dye]

Don't know about funk, but Funkadelic had a song on an early record called 'What Is Soul?'

Went a little something like this...

"What is Soul?

I Don't Know.

Soul is the ring around your bathtub....

What Is Soul?

I Don't Know.

Soul is Chitlins Foo Yung."

etc...

[Gary Sisco]

Famous Flames or JBs, take your pick. The one is precision funk personified, the other greasy funk beyond compare. Either way, James Brown, baybeez.

[Tanager]

Originally posted by Jim Dye
Don't know about funk, but Funkadelic had a song on an early record called 'What Is Soul?'

It's off their first album, a fine record.

[GoodSpeak]

Originally posted by Ron Thorne
GS, I'm disappointed that your only response on this thread was your patented "heaviest of sighs". What? No glowing TOP reviews/recommendations, just for starters?

What is funk?

Well, it could be something powered via Oakland, ala TOP, or James Brown, The Allman Brothers or Whitesnake.

Different strokes ...

Tower of Power
Average White Band
Bootsy Collins
Parliament
Edgar Winter's White Trash
George Clinton and the P-Funk All-Stars
Chaka Khan and Rufus
EW&F

Those are a few of my favorite funksters, among many. Sometimes it's just better to sit back and let others speak for you ;-)

I concur.


bump de bump de bump

[GoodSpeak]

I would suggest that if you can pick up a copy of AIN'T NO 'BOUT-A-DOUBT IT by Graham Central Station [Larry Graham's band], do it.

It's an absolute clinic on Funk.

I would add:

Brothers Johnson
Rick James
Ohio Players
Billy Cobham
Sly and the Family Stone
Kool and the Gang
Cold Blood
Curtis Mayfield
Isley Brothers


[But there ain't nothin' beats a goodly dose of old school Funk on EAST BAY GREASE...Tower of Power, bay-bee ;-) ]



Get up for the down stroke...

[jazzy mary]

Isley Bros. are R & B.

[GoodSpeak]

Au contrere.

THE HEAT IS ON by The Isleys is classic funk.

[jazzy mary]

Um,um. The Isley Bros. are R&B rooted w/ perhaps funk overtones sometimes. I'd have to say Cutis Mayfield is R & B too. R&B came first, then funk.

[GoodSpeak]

SUPER FLY by Curtis Mayfield


Hey, it's all good ;-)

[Tanager]

Hell, JB, the Isleys, and the Temptations all began playing what you seem to mean by R&B, but that doesn't mean they didn't lay down some phat funk as they evolved.

I wouldn't say "X is a R&B band, so they don't belong in a discussion of funk, which is what I am interpreting you as saying.

[GoodSpeak]

I agree.

Even Herbie Hancock did some Funk on MAN-CHILD. His cover of Steppin' In It, as an example.

[jazzy mary]

Indeed, they could all lay down some funk. But "funk" per se is a different groove and beat and vibe than funk. "Super Fly" to me is pure R & B. As Goodspeak said "it's all good". Now, Chaka Khan is someone who is a superb R & B artist, but had a big hit with a "funk" groove song "Tell me Something Good" Y'all can hear the difference, right? Between R & B and funk?

[Tanager]

Originally posted by jazzy mary
Indeed, they could all lay down some funk. But "funk" per se is a different groove and beat and vibe than funk. "Super Fly" to me is pure R & B. As Goodspeak said "it's all good". Now, Chaka Khan is someone who is a superb R & B artist, but had a big hit with a "funk" groove song "Tell me Something Good" Y'all can hear the difference, right? Between R & B and funk?

Sure, I can hear the difference, I just don't agree with you at all where it lies. Superfly is pretty much funk, to my ears.

[graypencil]

I think the distinction that JM is drawing seems to be that R&B is a bit more produced and slicker for what it is ( no matter how "funky " the elements are, while pure funk ( if there is such an animal ) is a bit rawer with rougher edges ..

like Geo Clintons P Funk or Sly ..vis a vis , say Rufus, T of P, EW&F

correct me if I'm putting wordz in your mouth , JM ...

[jazzy mary]

Um, not exactly because I think R & B is very "raw" (if "raw" means from the heart and soul--think Al Green, Sam Cooke, Ray Charles. Really good R & B isn't "slick" or produced. What I'm really talking about is the difference in the beat (I'm not a musician so I don't know how to put it) and the chords and the funky groove that is laid down musically. It's hard to describe in words. What we really need to do is have a listening session, listening to R & B and funk and pointing out the differences and sounds. Wouldn't that be fun!?

[Tanager]

Originally posted by graypencil
I think the distinction that JM is drawing seems to be that R&B is a bit more produced and slicker for what it is ( no matter how "funky " the elements are, while pure funk ( if there is such an animal ) is a bit rawer with rougher edges ..

like Geo Clintons P Funk or Sly ..vis a vis , say Rufus, T of P, EW&F

correct me if I'm putting wordz in your mouth , JM ...

Well, FWIW, there is some just nasty funk which was very heavily produced. Examples are EW&F, Rick James, and Cameo.

Parliament was undeniably phatass funk, but there's a lot of polish in most of their recordings, I think, as well.

I think Funk is much, much broader than is being implied in many of these comments, and many bands which one doesn't often think of as "Funk Bands" have laid down some skanky tracks.

[GoodSpeak]

OK.

Is it possible we are at cross purposes here?

JazzyMary is talking about Funk as a genre of music in the purest sense.

I think a few of us are trying to point to bands that play Funk irrespective of where they came from originally.

[Tanager]

Originally posted by GoodSpeak
OK.

Is it possible we are at cross purposes here?

JazzyMary is talking about Funk as a genre of music in the purest sense.

I think a few of us are trying to point to bands that play Funk.

That could be, but I didn't get that sense from JM's posts. And I don't think the two are mutually exclusive either, FWIW.

[GoodSpeak]

Originally posted by Tanager
That could be, but I didn't get that sense from JM's posts. And I don't think the two are mutually exclusive either, FWIW.

Neither do I.

I do think, however, that JM is attempting to show a decided difference between R&B bands and Funk bands. I submit that the bands she has identified as strictly R&B aren't ALWAYS that way. I further submit that some Jazz artists have devlved into the Funk, too.


Case and Point, Your Honor: Miles Davis BITCHES BREW.

[Dr Dave]

Cameo!

Hey pretty ladies all around the world
got something wierd to show you so tell all the boys and girls
tell you brother, your sister, and your mama too
'cause we're about to throw down and you know just what to do
Wave your hands in the air like you don't care...etc.

What's the difference between funk and R&B? Funk is about the body first and foremost. R&B is about the soul first, the body coincidentally.

Now, what about Stevie Wonder?

[Tanager]

Originally posted by Dr Dave
Now, what about Stevie Wonder?

Another fine musician who defies categorization. Why bother trying? The man has made great R&B/soul, funk, and pop, but he shouldn't be shoehorned into any of 'em.

[mke]

What about funk today? Any recs?

[Uli]

Not a rec per se as I only heard some cuts on the radio (but wich made me put him on my to get list) and also not funk per se but certainly FUNKEEEE: Kirk Franklin.

[Root Doctor]

Not to be forgotten: Dyke & the Blazers.

[Gary Sisco]

Funk is that element of music that, when heard, makes people involuntarily shake their butts and get a stupid look on their face.

[jazzy mary]

Yes, I am talking more about funk as a pure harmonic genre of music. Certainly, there are alot of crossovers and some R & B--later R & B that is as funk came *out* of R & B---have incorporated the style. But people and groups like Curtis Mayfield and The Isley Bros. aren't "funk" groups. Stevie is an R & B artist who is a musical genius and so, being that, he too incorporates ALL kinds of musical styles in to his music. I don't think ANY music is mutually exclusive. Most music born in the U.S. incorporates different styles--country, R & B, funk, rock etc. They all have their roots in the blues and "church music". I'm NOT saying that Curtis or Stevie or Sly Stone didn't incorporate some funk into some of their music--hey, they are all artists--the entire musical pallette is theirs to explore. But, I wouldn't label them as "funk". In a record store I'd put them under R & B (the real definition) or "Soul" if they didn't have the plastic divider that said "R & B".

It does seem that funk is more about the body, sex etc. (lyric wise) and the beat is intended to get your "booty" shaking. R & B covers more ground--love, broken hearts, happiness, solitude, mother, apple pie, the ecology, drugs.....name it. And the beat melodies and structure are varied. R & B can be ballads, fast, disco-y. Is there such a thing as "funk" ballad?

Cameo was so outrageous. I loved them. Remember. how they would wear those red jock-strappy things!!? Oh, yes funk is more "outrageous" and theatrical in its execution.

[Tanager]

JM, you and I are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. I don't for a minute buy that Sly... wasn't a "funk band". By your criteria, Tower of Power wasn't one, either - they cut a LOT of ballad/slow jam sides.

I don't really see funk as distinct from R&B at all (limiting the scope to the late 60s onwards) - I think the two are inextricably intertwined, and trying to separate them is folly.

[jazzy mary]

But I thought the whole idea of this thread was to define "funk"??!! Wasn't that the thread question??!!! I'm just trying to do my best. That's what I was trying to do. You're saying funk and R & B are interchangeable. I can't agree on that one. I can really *hear* the difference.

But, it really doesn't matter, all the groups we've been mentioning are bad m*****f***ers!!!!!

[Tanager]

I understand that you think you can hear the difference - and I'll say that yes, for a given song, one can certainly say, "that's funk" or "that's not funk." That's not what I'm arguing against.

What I'm saying is that, to me, funk grew out of R&B and is part of the larger whole. Is there R&B/Soul which isn't funk? Sure, much of it played by bands ranked among the pantheon of funk greats (EW&F, Tower of Power, Rick James among these). Is there Funk which isn't deeply and inextricably rooted in R&B/Soul? Not to these ears. To me, Sly is funk ("incorporated some elements of funk" - hell, he laid the groundwork, baby). Ditto for JB (especially late-60s on). That, to me, is not negated b/c you think you hear more R&B in there. I hear plenty of funk, believe me.

FWIW, I've never been in a record store which even HAD a "funk" section.

[edit] I don't mean to be overly argumentative, I just really love funk - I will agree with you 100% on one count, they're all bad-as-hell muthas.

[graypencil]

These a lot of funk in Contemporary Black Gospel music too ..

i.e.: Bebe and Cece Winans et al and I LOVE that funk version by Mark Kibble of the Hallelujah Chorus he did about eight years ago!!!

I play it EVERY Xmas

[GoodSpeak]

Originally posted by mke
What about funk today? Any recs?

Take a look at Greg Adams' MIDNIGHT MORNING and Tower of Power's SOULED OUT, SOUL VACCINATION [live] or OAKLAND ZONE.

FWIW, POWER STATION by Robert Palmer [a while back, 'tis true, but...] had some pretty edgy, Rock-like Funk.

[Tanager]

I haven't listened to much radio for a while (and when I do, it's mostly jazz/classical/college-alt), and I haven't heard a lot of recent acts that threatened to make me forget the 70's heyday.

But having said that, groups like Public Enemy, Defunkt, Fishbone, and the Brand New Heavies all put out some pretty funky stuff (but this was a while ago, by no means is any of this "new", unless you stopped listening in the late 80's). They're all worth exploring. The funkiest stuff, by far, I've heard in the least 15 years has been hip-hop stuff: PE, Son of Bazerk, Disposable Heroes of Hiphoprisy. Not the soulful horn/slap bass-driven stuff of yore, but it's got the right groove, no doubt.

The early-mid 80s saw a little bit of a post-disco funk renaissance as well: Cameo, Prince, Morris Day and the Time, several other Prince-spinoffs, Janet Jackson. I think that the non-hip-hop branch of the funk tree went too far in the homogenized techno-dance direction, though, unfortunately, courtesy of the whole Jimmy Jam/Terry Lewis school. Just IMHO. Maybe that's why little of it's interested me.

[Dr Dave]

Upon reflection, I'd say that "funk" is at least partly indicated by the prominence of rhythm above all other factors: above melody, above chords, above lyrics.

[GoodSpeak]

Yup.

[read this aloud...with the caps as emphasis]

Get UP for the DOWN stroke [pause] everybody get up! [repeat twice]



[The horns: BAP, ba, ba, BAAAH-duh [pause] BAP, ba, ba, bup, BAAAH-duh; repeat three times]

Funkadellics/Parliment, bay-bee.


Can't get enough [pause] of that Funky stuff!

[Kool and the Gang]


On the ONE.

[James Brown]

[Ron Thorne]

"Yes, I am talking more about funk as a pure harmonic genre of music."

Sorry, but this characterization completely lost me. Harmonic?

"Upon reflection, I'd say that "funk" is at least partly indicated by the prominence of rhythm above all other factors: above melody, above chords, above lyrics."

Ummm, Doc ... you may be onto something here. :-) I'd replace the words "at least partly" with the word "largely".

I think we may be talking about something on this thread which is extraordinarily difficult to talk about ... an elusive essence. Something which makes your body feel good before your mind can even relate is definitely powerful, but not necessarily something easily put into words.

For what it's worth, I don't feel that R&B and Funk are mutually exclusive either. In fact, they're inextricably interwoven, historically and rhythmically. Once again, semantics may prove to be a barrier to diggin' the music, no matter the "label".

It's not my impression that Deke was truly looking for a "definition" of funk, but rather some personal indicators and things which resonate for you (and me) as "funk(y)".

[Jim Sangrey]

http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/dre500/e542/e54233wp8uj.jpg http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/dre700/e779/e77909pupb6.jpg

[Jim Sangrey]

http://128.121.123.11/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/metersfire.jpg http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drc600/c642/c64235v9408.jpg

[Jim Sangrey]

http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/dre800/e810/e81072hmj0h.jpg http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drd100/d130/d13084ser0r.jpg

[Jim Sangrey]

http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drd500/d536/d536264163h.jpg http://zigaboo.com/images/zigaboo_cover.jpg

[Deke]

If I was honest I think I'd have to say Gary Sisco came the closest to what I'd really define as funk. My body knows before my brain does. A case in point, I watched a music programme because US2 were on it. They were awful. The drums were 'played' by a speccy guy sitting behind a computer, 'percussion' was a guy standing behind the 'wheels of steel'. The front line tried, but they could not inject any kind of emotion into that backline.

Then on came Jamiroquai (Or whatever...). No exactly my favourite band, yet suddenly I became aware of being on feet while my pelvis did unmentionable things with the laws of gravity.

Of course, half the problem with defining anything these days is that half a lifetime ago we weren't quite so hung up on genres, plus, today's kids can't think of new names for their music, so they've used the old ones. Computer generated funk? That's an oximoron. Swing? Frankie S. never sounded like that. Rap, well not like Millie Jackson does it, Sunshine! Today's rap actually sounds more like the poetry of previous generations (Jazz poets, jive poets, beat poets, dub poets...), and as for Beyonce's R&B... Howlin' Wolf it ain't!!! :cool:

[GoodSpeak]

Deke,

Check out:

Dr. Funk

[Pretty much anything by] George Clinton...new or old

[Noj]

Brick
Gwen McRae
Johnny "Guitar" Watson

[Pete C]

If I was honest I think I'd have to say Gary Sisco came the closest to what I'd really define as funk.

The amazing thing is you took EXACTLY a year to mull the responses over. I'm impressed.

[Bruce Lindfield]

I agree.

Even Herbie Hancock did some Funk on MAN-CHILD. His cover of Steppin' In It, as an example.


How can anybody talk about Herbie in this context and not mention "Headhunters" - which has to contain some of the funkiest moments ever in Jazz or Jazz Funk.

So - Paul Jackson is the essence of funk - every bass line he plays, exemplifies what funk is all about.

So - listen to the point on "Chameleon", where the synth bass stops and Herbie goes to an electric piano solo - the perfect amalgam of funk and Jazz - groove and improvisation by a kicking band!!

[Bruce Lindfield]

"Yes, I am talking more about funk as a pure harmonic genre of music."

Sorry, but this characterization completely lost me. Harmonic?

"Upon reflection, I'd say that "funk" is at least partly indicated by the prominence of rhythm above all other factors: above melody, above chords, above lyrics."

Ummm, Doc ... you may be onto something here. :-) I'd replace the words "at least partly" with the word "largely".

I think we may be talking about something on this thread which is extraordinarily difficult to talk about ... an elusive essence. Something which makes your body feel good before your mind can even relate is definitely powerful, but not necessarily something easily put into words.

For what it's worth, I don't feel that R&B and Funk are mutually exclusive either. In fact, they're inextricably interwoven, historically and rhythmically. Once again, semantics may prove to be a barrier to diggin' the music, no matter the "label".



I agree - I have a double CD called "The best funk album in the world ever" - which always goes down really well at parties and people ask me about it - but I would say that a lot of it is not exactly funk, but closer to R&B - Isley Brothers, for example.

However - bass players and drummers have no problem defining funk - as people have hinted, it is often about ostinato patterns on bass - from the Sidewinder to Chameleon, the repeating bassline often gets people dancing. But the latter is still funky when it goes to a non-repeating line. Jaco Pastorius could be incredibly funky and never repeat himself.

I think the thing is some kind of rhythmic syncopation - that is resolved, so that it points up the one, in a danceable manner. So you might have a 2-bar pattern where the first beat in the bar is felt very strongly, first time round - but then you only play off beats in the second bar, so when you come back to the first bar with the "one" - people really feel it.

The other big rhythmic syncopation thing with funk is playing more slowly in tempo, but subdividing the bar and accenting 16th notes - this was James Jamerson's innovation that made his lines so funky and was taken up by other bass players like Chuck Rainey - who made tracks like "Kid Charlemagne" so funky, while being non-repetitive in a Jazz improv. way.

[graypencil]

However - bass players and drummers have no problem defining funk - as people have hinted, it is often about ostinato patterns on bass - from the Sidewinder to Chameleon, the repeating bassline often gets people dancing. But the latter is still funky when it goes to a non-repeating line. Jaco Pastorius could be incredibly funky and never repeat himself.

I think the thing is some kind of rhythmic syncopation - that is resolved, so that it points up the one, in a danceable manner. So you might have a 2-bar pattern where the first beat in the bar is felt very strongly, first time round - but then you only play off beats in the second bar, so when you come back to the first bar with the "one" - people really feel it.

The other big rhythmic syncopation thing with funk is playing more slowly in tempo, but subdividing the bar and accenting 16th notes - this was James Jamerson's innovation that made his lines so funky and was taken up by other bass players like Chuck Rainey - who made tracks like "Kid Charlemagne" so funky, while being non-repetitive in a Jazz improv. way.



All the above is true ..but another musical consideration regarding a good funk groove ( regardless of whether it's even 16ths based or shuffled in a hip-hopstyle ) is a high form of COUNTERPOINT ..utilized in a very similar way to Bach...

Primarily , the Bass, guitar and keyboard patterns must ideally be playing separate but interlocking patterns where each part can be clearly heard, yet mesh to form a powerful groove ..

the drums: first of all, the bass drum must play a pattern that LOCKS with the bass player's line ..not necessarily doubling it note for note ( as is common in C&W music ) but reinforcing the shape of it ..

the snare drum will usually lay in a hard 2 and 4 ..( but not always ..one or more beats may vary depending on the composite groove )

within this framework, there may be occasional variations by individual players but the essence of the style is to achieve a relentless groove ..

I yield to the next speaker on the subject :eek:

[Groovehigh]

Alphonse Mouzon once said in an interview:" Funk is an inner feeling and hard to describe.It's something like a jogger who had run a long distance and you smell it.Or when you wake up in the morning and you DON'T brush your teeth!
;)
Mouzon, another funkmaster.
Herbie
Dazz Band
Morris Day
Eugene McDaniels

[Deke]

The amazing thing is you took EXACTLY a year to mull the responses over. I'm impressed.
And so you should be.

When my new post started a new page (Or at least it does on my computer...) I figured no one would notice... :)

Funny thing is, I hadn't realized I was such a creature of habit. My head was simply in the same place as it was when I started the thread, so I went back to see if I'd missed anything new. As a matter of fact I picked up a few new albums in the past year as a result of recommendations on here and the Tower of Power site.

I've got a couple for those of you on the Clinton/EWF/Tower of Power side of things.

Whitey's Carnival of Funk
Ridin' Thumb (Try the first album first...)
The Mummies - Terrifying funk from beyond the grave.
Mingo Fishtrap

...alright, I've got a couple of pairs of recommendations... :rolleyes:

[Clay Fink]

Fuck funk, what's Fink?

[Deke]

I don't know, but he appears to have his thumb up his nose...

[NahMean]

Lyman Woodard Organization.

All heads Wreckonize!

[Noj]

"Creative Musicians" is a pretty funky tune.

[Clay Fink]

I don't know, but he appears to have his thumb up his nose...

Actually he is inhaling laughing gas.

[Deke]

You heard the man.

Everyone take cover!!

[Enforcer]

There's nothing worse than a power outage. A while back, I finally distilled the definition of funk to a single sentence. I spent the better part of the past 4 years disseminating it to musicians and musical scholars the world over, and they unanimously agreed with it. I started to type it here, and the next thing I know, my hard drive crashes and I lost it.

If only I had remembered to back up my hard drive. I had my one sentence definition of jazz on there, too. Not to mention my 2 paragraph solution to world hunger. F**k me...

Larry