Body Count

[Gary Sisco]

As of this morning:

US dead: 46
MIA: 15
wounded: no figures available

Brit dead: 27
MIA: none
wounded: no figures available

Iraqi count: Nothing available on military casualties. Civilian dead numbers available only from Iraq official sources, given at 500 to 700. It's probably safe to cut that figure in half.

(Guardian, UK, today)

[Tanager]

One (relatively) good bit of news - one US soldier rescued from a hospital in Nassiriya by a special ops team. More than anything, I'm glad for her and her familiy.

[Clay Fink]

By all means let's not let those filty wogs get their hands on a nice little WHITE girl. Send in the Green Berets... (Sarcasm).

No. I'm glad she's free. Too bad Bush sent her in to harms way for no good reason.

[Al in NYC]

It seems they also found 11 bodies, likely American, in rescuing her.

One of the things that's striking to me is that many of the Americans captured, killed, or missing seem to be from non-combat units. Why did this happen? Did they stretch the supply lines too thin and leave them unprotected? Did they not expect guerilla activity or other problems at the rear?

[Clay Fink]

Originally posted by Al in NYC
Did they not expect guerilla activity or other problems at the rear?

Their problems at the rear are due to their heads being too far extended up their butts.

[Tanager]

Originally posted by Al in NYC
One of the things that's striking to me is that many of the Americans captured, killed, or missing seem to be from non-combat units. Why did this happen? Did they stretch the supply lines too thin and leave them unprotected? Did they not expect guerilla activity or other problems at the rear?

You're joking, right Al? You have read/heard/seen some news in the last couple of weeks, right? In short: For the reasons you suggest, yes, no.

[Tanager]

Originally posted by Clay Fink
By all means let's not let those filty wogs get their hands on a nice little WHITE girl. Send in the Green Berets...

I may be overreacting, but suggesting, even jokingly, a racial motive for rescuing a fellow soldier seems out of line. And I doubt they knew precisely which solders were alive, if any, before they made the raid.

[patricia]

Originally posted by Tanager
I may be overreacting, but suggesting, even jokingly, a racial motive for rescuing a fellow soldier seems out of line. And I doubt they knew precisely which solders were alive, if any, before they made the raid.

I'm sure that Tanager's remark was an attempt at levity, gallows humour if you will.


Two British soldiers have been removed from the "theatre" because they voiced disgust at the "illegality" of the attack on Iraq.
Apparantly, according to their lawyer, they are in big trouble.

[clinthopson]

Shrub has caused 73 confirmed deaths of US and Brit troops plus a probable other 11 and of course, the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands of Iraqi soldiers and civilians.

Operation Iraqi Oil Freedom continues on course.

[Clay Fink]

Originally posted by Tanager
I may be overreacting, but suggesting, even jokingly, a racial motive for rescuing a fellow soldier seems out of line. And I doubt they knew precisely which solders were alive, if any, before they made the raid.

Gallows humor. Yes it was. I'm sure they would have rescued the sister who's being held as a POW if they could have.

That our actions, generally, in this war are not racially motivated at least in part is debatable. At the same time, the whole history of European and American involvement in the non-white world is full of examples of how we view these folks as lesser beings who need "correction". There's been a good bit a talk like that from our right wing brothers all along the way on this war.

It's ironic that a good number of our non-white fellow citizens are getting shot at defending Southern white privilege.

[patricia]

Originally posted by Clay Fink
Gallows humor. Yes it was. I'm sure they would have rescued the sister who's being held as a POW if they could have.

That our actions, generally, in this war are not racially motivated at least in part is debatable. At the same time, the whole history of European and American involvement in the non-white world is full of examples of how we view these folks as lesser beings who need "correction". There's been a good bit a talk like that from our right wing brothers all along the way on this war.

It's ironic that a good number of our non-white fellow citizens are getting shot at defending Southern white privilege.


I think that, though you have a valid point, with regard to the "otherness" of the Iraqi people, I don't think that overt racism was involved in who was rescued and who was not. The uniform, I hope, was the determining factor in this case. I was more disturbed by the dead bodies which were also discussed. None of them needed to be dead, no matter what their ethnic origins were.

[Clay Fink]

I promise that in the future that I will flag all sarcasm with the note: "(sarcasm)"

It just makes me feel superiour chraracterizing our forces as a bunch of ravenous, racist locusts. Though, of course, we're nothing of the kind (sarcasm).

I'm sorry about any dead bodies that have resulted from this unnecessary and illegal war from either side - guilty or not guilty. Period.

[tippy]

I too think the racial factor is misapplied here. After all, Saddam is the Arab Hitler didn't you know? And Hitler as far as I know was white. Cultural differences, sure, since they don't share our Jesus, but neither do the jews and they are our friends. (In fact, Muslims are more accepting of Jesus than those of Jewish faith, right?) We didn't like Russians for a good while, now French people, now Russians (again) and they are whitey too.

I think this invasion is primarily about economic factors. I mean human rights. I mean WOMD. Control? Small peni? (ha ha, that's a *joke*) Pick your own best reason.

Btw, is sympathy being created indirectly for that despot Hussein? Now that would be sick.

Here's to the Battle of Baghdad. I wish our guys luck. You know that POW they rescued had two broken legs and a broken arm. How did that happen?

[patricia]

Yours is not an opinion of a small number of weirdos, but of many regular people who have been carried into this whole mess, kicking and screaming.
Now, all we can do, for now, is twist our sashes and hope that it will be over soon. So, so sad and unnessesary, IMO.
Maternity hospital was hit. Many injured. Oh well, shit happens.
[YES, SARCASM, FOR THOSE NOT FAMILIAR WITH MY POSTING STYLE]

[Clay Fink]

How can you say "shit happens" in the face of the slaughter of innocents, even if it's for their own good.

[Clay Fink]

BTW is it 'peni' or 'penises' (or just A BUNCH OF DICKS)?

[patricia]

Originally posted by Clay Fink
How can you say "shit happens" in the face of the slaughter of innocents, even if it's for their own good.


Did you see my disclaimer at the end of my post?? YOU, above others who read my post, should understand what sarcasm is.
THAT WAS SARCASM!!!

I've since edited, putting my disclaimer in caps.

[Clay Fink]

Originally posted by patricia
Did you see my disclaimer at the end of my post?? YOU, above others who read my post, should understand what sarcasm is.
THAT WAS SARCASM!!!

I've since edited, putting my disclaimer in caps.

Who ME? Sarcastic?

For christ's sake, I knew you were being sarcastic.

[Clay Fink]

The banjo boy is starting to scare me...

[patricia]

Originally posted by Clay Fink
Who ME? Sarcastic?

For christ's sake, I knew you were being sarcastic.


OK. Your post didn't make that clear. Sorry.

[Clay Fink]

Originally posted by patricia
OK. Your post didn't make that clear. Sorry.
You're sorry? I'm sorry!

[walto]

This just in from the thread police:

"All sarcasm, express or implied on this thread, whether labeled as such or not, is right out, effective immediately. That is all."

This has been a service of Thread Police Notice Disseminators, LLC, and Mutilation Bros., Inc. As always, we hope it will be found conducive to smoother and better lubricated future discussions.

[Clay Fink]

Walter. Are you serious?!

[Uli]

I am organizing a sit-in against organisations associated with a certain walto.

More to the suject of body count. One may become so sarcastic and think "What's a 1000" They have much bigger earthquakes than that. And why don't they count the Republican guards? I mean, they are soldiers too and seem to get the heaviest of pounding.

[Clay Fink]

Originally posted by Uli
And why don't they count the Republican guards? I mean, they are soldiers too and seem to get the heaviest of pounding.

They are also Republicans - I can't understand why Bush is so mad at them.

[Gary Sisco]

Answer to one of the questions. There are always ten or more personnel involved with logistics for every combat trooper. Nothing to say that only combat troopers get killed or captured. That's war, my friends. People get hurt and killed and shit gets destroyed. It's always that way, always has been, always will be. That's why it *ought* to be the last decision taken after all others have proven themselves unworthy. Not the first, out of mere impatience and personal agendas.

There's no count on Iraqi soldiers 'cause neither side is counting them.

[patricia]

Originally posted by walto
This just in from the thread police:

"All sarcasm, express or implied on this thread, whether labeled as such or not, is right out, effective immediately. That is all."

This has been a service of Thread Police Notice Disseminators, LLC, and Mutilation Bros., Inc. As always, we hope it will be found conducive to smoother and better lubricated future discussions.


LOL!!! Noted and ignored. ;)

[Uli]

Originally posted by Gary Sisco

There's no count on Iraqi soldiers 'cause neither side is counting them.

Both sides have pretty good estimates, imho.

[Tanager]

I don't mean to make light of it, but I actually kind of doubt it, Uli. You might be correct in a general sense, but considering the "children's crusade" recruiting and deployment tactics of the regular Iraqi army, I can't imagine anyone *really* has a firm handle on any precise number of the number of raw grunts blasted by our bombardments.

I hope I'm wrong, but I have a feeling that a lot of the Iraqi regulars die pretty anonymous deaths.

[RainyDay]

So I'm reading Time magazine last night and there's a big color photo of a dead Iraqi soldier laying face up. Then a few pages on there is an article about the appropriateness of showing dead American soldiers in the media.

[Uli]

Well, they may not be too detailed about it,but they have a pretty good idea about their toups strenghts at any time, as long as they are still operating. Don't forget Irak is also sed to be a pretty tough police state so they do know about their citizens.

[patricia]

Originally posted by RainyDay
So I'm reading Time magazine last night and there's a big color photo of a dead Iraqi soldier laying face up. Then a few pages on there is an article about the appropriateness of showing dead American soldiers in the media.

The implication being that dead Iraqi soldiers are "work product" and dead American soldiers are sons and daughters of real people.

[Tanager]

Originally posted by Uli
Well, they may not be too detailed about it,but they have a pretty good idea about their toups strenghts at any time, as long as they are still operating. Don't forget Irak is also sed to be a pretty tough police state so they do know about their citizens.

I don't question they know who got "recruited" - I just doubt they know that well who's been killed/fled/wandered off into the desert/surrendered.

[Uli]

Of course, Tanager. I am not really arguing with you. Besides, it ain't that easy a task if you are constantly the receiver of bombs from the air, if your communication channels are attacked and you are generally speaking under heavy attack. Our troups even with all the backroom help they have are apparently not the fastest to verify and confirm all info neither.

[Tanager]

Originally posted by Uli
Of course, Tanager. I am not really arguing with you. Besides, it ain't that easy a task if you are constantly the receiver of bombs from the air, if your communication channels are attacked and you are generally speaking under heavy attack. Our troups even with all the backroom help they have are apparently not the fastest to verify and confirm all info neither.

Yah, agreed. But damn, I was spoiling for a good argument!

[Gary Sisco]

US Dead: 53
MIA: 11
Wounded: 110

Brit Dead: 27
Wounded: no figures

Iraq: Dead soldiers: +/- 1000 (US/Brit estimate)
Dead civilians: 677 (Iraq estimate)
Wounded civilians: 5000 (Iraq estimate)

again, given the state sources of Iraq info, I think it safe to cut the civilian casualties by half, as it was always safe to do with American counts of Vietnamese dead, back in the daze. Of course, back then, all Vietnamese dead were "VC" by definition.

Stats from The Guardian (UK) today.

[Chris A]

LIBERATION KILLS!

[Gary Sisco]

US dead: 61
Wounded: 114
MIA: 15
POW: 7

Brit Dead: 27
Wounded: 74
MIA: none
POW: none

Iraq military numbers still same as yesterday. Ditto civilian estimates. "coalition" reports 9,000 Iraqi POWs. After four days in Gulf War I, they had 69,000 Iraqi POWs on their hands. Seems they're not quite caving as much as expected.

[Gary Sisco]

Guardian today:

· US - 61 killed; 12 MIA, 110 wounded, 7 PoWs
· UK - 27 killed, 74 wounded

· Iraq military - about 1,000 (coalition estimates), 9,000 PoWs
· Iraqi civilians - (Iraqi estimates) 1,252 killed, 5,103 injured

Vermont: 2 killed; 1 wounded

What the numbers mean:





RED CROSS HORRIFIED BY NUMBERS OF DEAD CIVILIANS

CTV - Friday 4 April 2003 - OTTAWA: Red Cross doctors who visited southern Iraq this week saw "incredible" levels of civilian casualties including a truckload of dismembered women and children, a spokesman said Thursday from Baghdad.

Roland Huguenin, one of six International Red Cross workers in the Iraqi capital, said doctors were horrified by the casualties they found in the hospital in Hilla, about 160 kilometres south of Baghdad.

"There has been an incredible number of casualties with very, very serious wounds in the region of Hilla," Huguenin said in a interview by satellite telephone.

"We saw that a truck was delivering dozens of totally dismembered dead bodies of women and children. It was an awful sight. It was really very difficult to believe this was happening."

Huguenin said the dead and injured in Hilla came from the village of Nasiriyah, where there has been heavy fighting between American troops and Iraqi soldiers, and appeared to be the result of "bombs, projectiles."

"At this stage we cannot comment on the nature of what happened exactly at that place . . . but it was definitely a different pattern from what we had seen in Basra or Baghdad.

"There will be investigations I am sure."

Baghdad and Basra are coping relatively well with the flow of wounded, said Huguenin, estimating that Baghdad hospitals have been getting about 100 wounded a day.

Most of the wounded in the two large cities have suffered superficial shrapnel wounds, with only about 15 per cent requiring internal surgery, he said.

But the pattern in Hilla was completely different.

"In the case of Hilla, everybody had very serious wounds and many, many of them small kids and women. We had small toddlers of two or three years of age who had lost their legs, their arms. We have called this a horror."

At least 400 people were taken to the Hilla hospital over a period of two days, he said -- far beyond its capacity.

"Doctors worked around the clock to do as much as they could. They just had to manage, that was all."

The city is no longer accessible, he added.

Red Cross staff are also concerned about what may be happening in other smaller centres south of Baghdad.

"We do not know what is going on in Najaf and Kabala. It has become physically impossible for us to reach out to those cities because the major road has become a zone of combat."

The Red Cross was able to claim one significant success this week: it played a key role in re-establishing water supplies at Basra.

Power for a water-pumping station had been accidentally knocked out in the attack on the city, leaving about a million people without water. Iraqi technicians couldn't reach the station to repair it because it was under coalition control.

The Red Cross was able to negotiate safe passage for a group of Iraqi engineers who crossed the fire line and made repairs. Basra now has 90 per cent of its normal water supply, said Huguenin.

Huguenin, a Swiss, is one of six international Red Cross workers still in Baghdad. The team includes two Canadians, Vatche Arslanian of Oromocto, N.B., and Kassandra Vartell of Calgary.

The Red Cross expects the humanitarian crisis in Iraq to grow and is calling for donations to help cope.

[Gary Sisco]

Here's another example of what the numbers mean.

Turns out, very sadly, that the second Vermont KIA, Cpl Mark Evnin, USMC, was the son of a close family friend of Bronwyn and her mom, and the grandson of a longtime Burlington rabbi. We didn't have the news til late yesterday morning.

South Burlington Marine killed in Iraq







By John Briggs
Free Press Staff Writer

Mark Evnin, 21, a Marine corporal from South Burlington, was killed Thursday in combat in Iraq.

He was a scout and sniper with the First Marine Division. He had shipped to Kuwait in February.

His mother, Mindy Evnin, said he died at 1 p.m. Iraq time after a firefight. She had no details of the fight other than that two other Marines were with him when he was shot in the abdomen.

She learned of his death when three Marines in dress blues came to her house Thursday evening.

"One of them came back today," she said Friday afternoon, "and they will help with the funeral arrangements."

"I want him buried in Burlington and with full military honors," she said. "He was proud to be a Marine, and I'm sure he died feeling that he was doing what he should do."

Evnin was an only child. His father, Michael, lives in Rockville, Md.

Evnin's grandfather, Max Wall, rabbi from 1946 to 1987 at Burlington's Ohavi Zedek Synagogue, said his grandson had wanted to be in the military since childhood.

"We thought it would be the Air Force," Wall said, "and then he told us it was the Marines. He was a person -- I don't know where he got it -- a person always concerned about peace and welfare. He had a social conscience. In his last letter, from Kuwait, he was talking about going into international relations when he got back, or possibly into intelligence or security services. He was definitely a patriot.

"He was not the most successful student," Wall added, "but he was a very successful grandson. We were very close."

Wall said Evnin called his mother Tuesday or Wednesday night, from the battlefield.

"Apparently," he said, "an embedded reporter let him use his cell phone. There are good people everywhere."

"He couldn't say where he was," Wall said, "and he was a stickler for that kind of discipline."

Rabbi Joshua Chasan of Ohavi Zedek Synagogue, who knew Evnin since 1991, recalled him as "a thoughtful kid.

"He was the same kind of little boy as he was a man," Chasan said. "I saw him last August. He was so present, so present. He was a very gracious presence. He was an honorable young man.

"His death," Chasan said, "brings home painfully that what's going on is about far more than politics."

Evnin graduated from South Burlington High School in December 1999, his mother said, and a few weeks later was in Marine Boot Camp at Parris Island, S.C.

His high school remembered him Friday morning with a moment of silence, and Principal Patrick Burke had the flag lowered to half-staff.

"He was very well-liked by students and staff alike," Burke said of Evnin in a written statement. "Our thoughts are with his fellow Marines, his family and the SBHS Class of 2000."

Tim Comolli, who directs the school's imaging laboratory, said he remembered his former student "as family.

"Back when I was sick for two months, this was a kid who came by every day," he said. "When I was supposed to present at the Vermont Fest, Vermont's largest technical show for educators, he put together the kids' projects, video and animation projects, and then he went down to the Fest and made the presentation for me because I couldn't go.

"I remember him being there after school. He'd spend hours helping elementary and middle school kids with their projects. Technology was innate with him.

"He was about as kind and loving an individual as you'll ever meet," Comolli said. "He exuded it. He was just fundamentally a kind person.

"I've done my crying, but my tears are done now," he said. "When I think of him I smile. That's the kind of kid I remember. When Mark was in the room, everyone was happy."

"Mark had a definite sense of duty," said Travis Kehoe, Evnin's longtime friend and a member himself of the Vermont Air National Guard. "We always dreamed of the military, since we were little kids, running around playing soldier."

He said Evnin joined the Marines because "they were the most gung-ho.

"He'd never settle for second best," Kehoe said. "If he was going to do something, he wanted to be the best. He was pretty easy-going, but once he got his mind set on something, there was no stopping him."

Wall got a letter from his grandson, then in Kuwait, in February.

"He said he was sitting around doing nothing. He said they were trained to do whatever they had to do, and he couldn't wait. I wrote back and told him to be patient, and that was the last I heard from him.

"He was a good-looking young American with a million dreams and hopes," Wall said. "Now, they're cut short.

"But I can't look at the war now," he said. "Somehow I hope we can get out with some degree of a moral victory. Maybe in the future we can lead other nations to solving international problems in a peaceful fashion. To continue to pay these prices is terrible."


Reporter recalls Vermont corporal's last moments




By Geoffrey Gevalt
Free Press Staff Writer

Friday, the day after Mark Evnin of South Burlington died in a firefight in Iraq, the platoon commander told a reporter: "Mark did what Marines do. He died fighting for his country."

The reporter, John Koopman of the San Francisco Chronicle, was 15 feet away when Evnin was mortally wounded. In a satellite phone interview Saturday, Koopman said he thought Evnin's wound, though serious, wasn't life-threatening.

"I thought he was going to be OK. It looked bad, but I'd seen worse. I thought, 'That's too bad, but at least he's going home.' We joked about it later, how Mark was going to have sponge baths from the nurses that night."

But Evnin didn't make it. He died in the helicopter evacuating him to safety. He was 21.

"It was a shock. It was the first death in the battalion."

Evnin had two roles in the war. He drove the Humvee that carried Koopman and two other marines -- a sniper and the sergeant-major. Evnin also was the spotter for the sniper. He was there to spot the target, to gauge the distance and wind.

In an article in the San Francisco Chronicle that was published in Saturday's Burlington Free Press, Koopman described the firefight encountered by Evnin's outfit, the 3rd Battalion, 4th Marines. He provided more detail Saturday.

The unit of 800 to 900 soldiers was heading toward Baghdad when it was hit with heavy enemy fire near Kut, about 100 miles southeast of Iraq's capital. It was 2 p.m., clear and hot.

The tanks led the procession that crossed over the Tigris River, followed by armored personnel carriers and then the Humvees.

"We had been sweeping down the road shooting at anything that resembled the enemy," Koopman said. "All of a sudden there was a whole bunch of enemy in there who started shooting.

"Mark got out and got on the hood of the Humvee with the sniper. The sergeant-major got out and saw there were bunkers that were fortified with sandbags. That was where a lot of the fire was coming from.

"The sergeant-major told Mark to get off the Humvee and fire one of the grenades at the bunker. Mark carried one of the grenade launchers an M-203 with him. The sergeant-major grabbed it and fired a couple of rounds so Mark could spot it. Mark couldn't see the bunker at first.

"Mark went over to a small clump of dirt to fire. He then moved behind the armored personnel carrier to reload. He was partly behind the APC and stepped out and fired again, but someone popped up between the bunker and Mark. I don't think he was aiming at Mark; he just sprayed the area with machine gun fire. Mark was hit and went down.

"The sergeant-major crawled to Mark to pull him to safety. He was sitting up, his head was moving around. He was talking to the corpsman and the sergeant-major. A Humvee came up to get him out. He seemed to be doing OK."

Later, word came back that Evnin was "stable." Then came the bad news: Evnin had died in the helicopter.

"It's always an ugly thing to have happen. I didn't know him very long; I'd only moved onto his Humvee about four or five days before the firefight. But Mark was a great guy. Folks told me he was a good Marine who always got the work done.

"Mark was one of those kids who really should have been in college, and he was intending to do that after he got out of the Marine Corps. He should have been in a frat house. He was bright. He was a good-looking guy who liked his Ray-Ban wrap-arounds.

"The guy was standing up there engaged in a full-scale battle and he got killed for it," Koopman added. "You write about people who get killed all the time, but when it happens to someone right next to you, who you know, it takes on a whole different meaning.

"He was a prime-of-life kid with a real bright future. That makes it doubly a shame."

Koopman sent his regrets to Evnin's family and said he wished he could have done more with the story of Evnin's death. But the battalion has been on the move; on Saturday it was a few miles outside of Baghdad.

Koopman did do one thing for Mark Evnin. Several days before his death, Koopman let Evnin use the newspaper's phone.

"Seems like the least I can do is invite people I know or people I feel just need to make a call."

So on Tuesday, with a little time to burn, Koopman let Evnin call home. He tried his girlfriend first but there was no answer so he left a message. Then he called his parents.

"I'm very glad that he was able to have that last phone call," Koopman said.

With that, Koopman had to sign off. It was midnight Iraq time.

"This has been a long time over here," he said. "I'm ready for this war to be over."

[Gary Sisco]

US - 91 killed; 172 wounded; 16 MIA; 7 PoW

UK - 30 killed; 74 wounded

Iraqi military - about 4,000 (coalition estimate); 9000 PoWs

Iraqi civilians - (Iraqi estimate) 1,252 killed; 5,103 injured

Journalists - 9 killed; 2 injured; 2 missing

Vermont -- 2 KIA; 1 wounded


The Iraqi figures are highly questionable, as they haven't changed much since last week, and that simply isn't possible, even in the best of circumstances. Nor is it possible to "destroy" entire divisions, as the American command has maintained, with only an estimated 4000 dead. Just ain't possible. Which either means that they didn't destroy a division or that the figures simply aren't accurate or reliable. It's also certain that many more civilians have died and been wounded. It's impossible to conduct a war with modern technology in an urbanized setting -- particularly in cities where a "hospital" is not exactly up to standards after many years of economic embargo -- without many more dead and wounded than these figures reflect. Just ain't possible.

One "good" thing is that there are 60,000 less Iraqi prisoners (so far) than in Gulf War I. Given the Bushist take on how to treat prisoners, we can at least be thankful for that. I'd hate to see them force on the American people the cost of keeping 69,000 POWs locked up in wire cages, apparently forever.