Europeans playing jazz

[Paul B]

Two recent shows in New York proved (if it needed proving) that Europeans are as adept at playing jazz as Americans. The question, then, is: are there differences in approach between European countries? The shows in question seem to indicate that there are.

Last week at the Austrian Cultural Center I went (with Helmut Lampshade and our friend Carl Maguire) to see the Franz Koglmann trio. I knew Koglmann by reputation only, though I do own one or two Vienna Art Orchestra albums, and he plays on (and arranged) Steve Lacy's <i>Itinerary</i>, a large-group album that succeeds wonderfully. The trio (piano, drums, trumpet/flugelhorn) played mostly originals, with a few standards. The tunes were interesting--angular lines, harmonies that shifted in interetsing ways, all played tightly and cohesively. And yet...something was missing. Koglmann played as if he were practising, or as if he was not thoroughly engaged. The bass and piano seemed to have more fire, but in the end it all seemed very clinical. It was "chamber jazz" without the brio that Giuffre, or even Lacy, would have brought to it. I am generally loath to use the word "soul," but it seemed to me that quality was exactly what was lacking. One good thing, though: the tunes were brief, and I mean that as a compliment. So much jazz--both bop and free--consists of overly long tunes. I think it is a good thing to make a statement in 3-5 minutes. It's just that Koglmann et al weren't making much of one at this show.

In stark contrast was a show at Lincoln Center Saturday night. Opening the show was the Herve Sellin tentet, essentially Sellin and a French bassist and drummer along with some New York pick-up musicians. Good stuff, but hardly earth-shattering. Sellin is clearly indebted to Wynton (he preceded one tune with a statement saying he was dedicating it to someone who was very "precious" to him...No, not a wife, friend, or family member, but Wynton). Anyway, the band played tightly and with some feeling, but it was no different that his "precious" friend's music: predictable, never risky, never crossing any lines. Still: it beat the Koglmann act.

The highlight, though, was what came next: The great Martial Solal playing with Phil Woods and Steve Lacy. Solal is marvelous, his playing has incredible finesse, his tunes are quirky, interesting, captivating, and utterly original, and his technique is not far from that of a great classical player. Woods and Lacy are a truly odd couple, and I was worried about what would happen (though the Ben Ratliff review of Thursday's show had eased my doubts a bit before the show). Sure enough, the two horns meshed well. They are from opposite ends of the spectrum, but with Solal anchoring them, the contrast worked. Lacy looked frail, and was clearly not at the top of his game. Woods sounded strong and powerful. They played a Lacy original ("Bagdhad"), two Solal tunes, and, as an encore, "Well You Needn't." As good as Woods sounded, though, Lacy showed how great an original voice can be, and I was glad to hear him chip away at Woods' by-now-cliched bebop lines. Solal played brilliantly throughout the whole thing, and his rhythm section was felt but not heard, i.e. no long bass or drum solos, just good strong backup. Koglmann would not likely hold his own with these folks.

Bye-ya.

[I'll admit to wondering after the concert--prompted by Woods' playing--how bebop, which takes so much technique and is so harmonically complex, almost always ends up sounding so flat, so predictable, so lacking in soul. The curse of hegemony, I guess, and a topic for another thread. Or perhaps not.]

[Uli]

Originally posted by Paul B

[I'll admit to wondering after the concert--prompted by Woods' playing--how bebop, which takes so much technique and is so harmonically complex, almost always ends up sounding so flat, so predictable, so lacking in soul. The curse of hegemony, I guess, and a topic for another thread. Or perhaps not.]

imho it be much better if you kept that kinda drivel to yourself.

[mke]

Re: Austrian trumpeters, I saw Daniel Noesig back in september and he was a highlight. He too was very concerned with form and logic and I wouldn't say what he played was "soulful" in a down-home sense, but it did seem honest and more importantly was very interesting. It made him the highlight of the group.

"I'll admit to wondering after the concert--prompted by Woods' playing--how bebop, which takes so much technique and is so harmonically complex, almost always ends up sounding so flat, so predictable, so lacking in soul. The curse of hegemony, I guess, and a topic for another thread."

Title is kinda long, though.

[Paul B]

imho it be much better if you kept that kinda drivel to yourself.

Ahh, Uli. We're always so grateful for your incisive and intelligent responses.

Bye-ya.

[yardbird]

Uli, I think the question raised by Paul B is quite an interesting one - the intensity and feeling of inner urge of original bebop is lacking in most bop based music performed these days.

[Uli]

Yardbird, Paulie B did not raise a question. He made assertions. Assertions are never a good starting point for discussions.

Also, the context in which he made those assertions are very questionable imho. I very much doubt that

one can say that Lacy has more soul, is less predictable, etc because he plays a different style than Woods.

In this context, my statement was also a bit payback because Paulie dismissed wholesale as making stupor inducing noise or something to that extent musicians like, William Parker, Fred Anderson, Andrew Cyrille, Joe Maneri, Warren Smith, Hamid Drake etc etc(cf Sunny Murray w. Burrell thread)

[Paul B]

Uli, will you ever learn to read? It seems more and more doubtful.

There is no "assertion" at all. I started the paragraph in question with "I admit to wondering...." In English, that is hardly an assertion--it's obvious that I'm simply raising a question and expressing an opinion.

However, it doesn't take a genius to see that Lacy is more original than Woods; the latter is playnig a slightly refined version of the bebop created by Bird, Cannonball, and a few others. He sounds like dozens of other players, and dozens of other players sound like him. The same cannot be said for Lacy. That's not to disparage Woods' playing--but he can't lay any stake to having come up with something original. And,<b>for me</b>, that style of playing just seems stale sometimes, even in the hands of someone formidable like Woods.

Of course, I don't know why I bother with this. You're not interested in discussing ideas, just negating what everyone else on the board has to say.

Bye-ya.

[Uli]

Originally posted by Paul B
Uli, will you ever learn to read? It seems more and more doubtful.



I think I know how to read, Paulie. Yes, you start with I was wondering..... and that is kinda indication of questioning.

However you continue with: how is it that....and follow with a bunch of assertions. You are not questioning if indeed bebop derived music is more flat you only question how is it that.


Indeed why should I continue to discuss things with you, with somebody who sez Warren Smith makes stupor-inducing noise. Unfortunately I have nothing bad to say about Steve Lacy.

[Pete C]

Paul, 2 points:

Woods and Lacy did play together in some of those Monk big band dates.

I don't think the problem is bebop, but rather Woods. Much like Michael Brecker, Woods wows people with his amazing technique, but there is definitely something--vulnerability, unpredictability, edge, surprise, whatever--missing.

[Tanager]

Originally posted by Uli
Assertions are never a good starting point for discussions.

I disagree entirely, even though this isn't the point of this thread at all. Assertions, especially ones about interesting topics, are IMHO one of the best ways to start a discussion off. Give me a good honest opinion over which we can debate, I say.

[Uli]

Originally posted by Tanager
Give me a good honest opinion over which we can debate, I say.

Assertions are never a good starting point for a discussion.

[Pete C]

How about insertions?

[Nate Dorward]

Originally posted by Pete C
Woods and Lacy did play together in some of those Monk big band dates.Depends how you mean "together": Woods got to solo on every one of the tunes, Lacy is just there in the ensemble. Woods is on both the Riverside & Columbia big band discs; Lacy only on the Columbia. It's a great "what-if?" to me what it would have been like if Lacy's work with Monk had been caught on tape, beyond this token glimpse of him in the ensembles....

I've only seen Woods twice, on two consecutive nights in Halifax a few years ago (w/ Lynch, Charlap, Gilmore, Goodwin). The first night was terrific, the second night horribly routine (Woods was obviously in a foul mood on the 2nd occasion & refused to walk onstage for an encore). I think the lesson here is that any style of jazz can seem utterly trite or electrifyingly renewed depending on the right circumstances. Improvisation always leaves room for unpredictability or more subtle shades of internal renovation, even within basically codified artforms like bebop.

On the other hand, I can think of nothing more predictable & tedious than the typical Uli post.


Solal.....I suppose I should check him out more. I hated the first album of his I got, Just Friends, so much that I've been avoiding him since. (It's an album distinguished by one of the weirdest & most lacklustre Paul Motian performances ever committed to tape--he loses the beat entirely at a few points & scrambles to catch up--& Solal is positively remorseless in his ingenuities. He goes at jazz standards there as if he really didn't like the tunes much--in fact, he admits in the liner notes that he dislikes "Summertime", which he plays on the album in a drastically reharmonized version.)

[Uli]

Originally posted by Nate Dorward

I think the lesson here is that any style of jazz can seem utterly trite or electrifyingly renewed depending on the right circumstances. Improvisation always leaves room for unpredictability or more subtle shades of internal renovation, even within basically codified artforms like bebop.

Artfully expressed basics, imho. Basics that Paul B. apparently has not mastered yet. Amazing that you have learnt that lesseon after hearing Woods only 2 times

Originally posted by Nate Dorward
On the other hand, I can think of nothing more predictable & tedious than the typical Uli post.

It does not surprise me, that you find my posts more predictable than Paul B's fashionable bashing of the VF. Taking offense of that would not earn you a pat on the back from your peers on the fashion pannel

[mke]

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Tanager
Give me a good honest opinion over which we can debate, I say.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Originally posted by Uli
Assertions are never a good starting point for a discussion.

HA HA

[Pete C]

Originally posted by Nate Dorward
It's a great "what-if?" to me what it would have been like if Lacy's work with Monk had been caught on tape, beyond this token glimpse of him in the ensembles....



There is a very poor quality recording of two tunes from the period when Lacy was part of Monk's small group for several months in '60 or '61. I have this on cassette, from when it was broadcast on WKCR some years ago. One of these days I'll get it transferred. It's the quartet plus Lacy, and Rouse takes the much longer solos. I don't know if that was due to Lacy's reticence, or instructions from Monk.

[Pete C]

Originally posted by Nate Dorward

Solal.....I suppose I should check him out more. I hated the first album of his I got, Just Friends, so much that I've been avoiding him since. (It's an album distinguished by one of the weirdest & most lacklustre Paul Motian performances ever committed to tape--he loses the beat entirely at a few points & scrambles to catch up--& Solal is positively remorseless in his ingenuities. He goes at jazz standards there as if he really didn't like the tunes much--in fact, he admits in the liner notes that he dislikes "Summertime", which he plays on the album in a drastically reharmonized version.)

I hadn't noticed the Motian thing explicitly, but I have felt that the album is missing something compared to other Solal recordings. That group was much better when I caught them live in Europe. But you should really check out the contemporaneous Ballade du 10 Mars, with Marc Johnson & Motian. for some great Solal.

I don't have the same problem as you with the reharmonizations. There are plenty of straight versions of those tunes, they'll survive, and in the hands of masters like Solal, Jarrett and Walter Norris, the reharmonizations give the tunes a new spark.

[Tom Storer]

I think Phil Woods is great, and disagree that he and scores of others are anonymous sound-alikes. Like any musician who's been touring and recording for decades, sometimes you'll have sparks flying and sometimes you won't. The same is true of Lacy. I've seen him live numerous times and believe me, he has his ho-hum nights too.

[Captain Hate]

Lacy and Phil Woods played together, I believe, at a Chicago Jazz Fest years ago where they were doing Monk's Big Band charts. Lacy was his usual excellent self; I've never heard him have an off night but I believe Tom. I just haven't had enough times seeing him live. Woods was an absolute monster that night; the wattage increased significantly when he began to play and he had the crowd in his pocket from the get go. I'm sure he mails it in on occasion and I don't like it when he badmouths people like Braxton. Although he does play in the bop idiom, his chops are truly amazing and when he's on he transcends categories.

[Nate Dorward]

Pete--that sounds like a fascinating document with Rouse & Lacy together. Well Monk had a rather fixed order of solos especially in the Rouse years--listen to the Black Hawk sessions e.g. where I find the invariability of the order of solos a bit annoying considering that he's got a larger band to work with.

The oddest track in terms of Motian on Solal's Just Friends was, if I remember rightly, "You Stepped Out of a Dream", which is where his time gets a bit shaky at one or two points at the turnarounds, I recall. The other oddity is that Motian plays brushes for the entire album--even though the session photos show him playing sticks. -- I don't mind reharmonization, I was more generally pointing to the fussy, bristling despatching of many of the standards on the album even when the original chords are adhered to. It's a slightly wearying album to listen to--could have used a more subtle studio sound, too (very bright & inyerface).

[Paul B]

I was trying to think of something else to add to the thread, in order to give Uli something to contradict. But I can't come up with anything.

Re: Woods, don't get me wrong: I've admired him for many, many years. It's just that sometimes his approach (and post-bop in general) <b>seems</b> lacking--perhaps it's the rigidity; it's hard for players steeped in bop to play anything else, and this seemed to be the case for Woods. <b>I felt like</b> his playing at the Solal gig was a little stilted even on the Monk tune. The free improv basically just didn't work; <b>I suspect</b> Woods can't really approach music that way, and has <b>probably</b> never really dealt with improvisation not based on chord changes.

N.B. Words in <b>bold</b> indicate that the above is an opinion, not an assertion. That's for the benefit of Uli, who generally needs things like that to be made clear.

Bye-ya.