Ten Worst Recordings in Your Collection

[Brian Olewnick]

Silly, end-of-the-year thing. To be sure, there are millions of recordings out there I'd like much less than these and, for some reason, these things remain in my collection, but they're really not very good. Ideally, someone out there will think one or two of 'em are great, or even *GREAT*. ;-)

10. Steve Coleman - Sine Die

9. Orkest de Volharding - Shoulder to Shoulder

8. Anthony Braxton - Four Orchestras (I'm sorry, but I've been giving this one second chances for 25 years)

7. George Russell - The African Game (Pretty sure this came in near the top of a Village Voice poll back when it was released)

6. Eugene Chadbourne - Camper Van Chadbourne

5. Don Cherry - Home Boy

4. Bernie Worrell - Funk of Ages

3. Captain Beefheart - Unconditionally Guaranteed

2. The Golden Palominos - Blast of Silence

And the worst album by the guy about who WIRE was spewing hosannahs as the next great composer about 10 years ago.....

1. James MacMillan - Isabel Gowdie

[Nate Dorward]

This'll be a tough one, cause I usually get rid of bad or even just mediocre things as soon as possible (whither goest thou, Jazz Trading Post...?). Still thinking....

[Jon Abbey]

I used to like that Camper van Chadbourne record, haven't heard it in a while. I sell the worst CDs in my collection whenever I decide that's what they are, so I can't really answer this.

[Derek Taylor]

Clever, Brian. Off the top of my head:

Leonard Nimoy – MR. SPOCK’S MUSIC FROM OUTER SPACE (Varese Saraband)
Wynton Marsalis – JOE COOL’S BLUES (Columbia)
Pat Metheny & Derek Bailey – THE SIGN OF THE 4 (Knitting Factory)
Eve Packer & Noah Howard – CRUISIN’ WITH MOXIE (Altsax)
David S. Ware – THREADS (Thirsty Ear)
Sonny Rollins – THE SOLO ALBUM (Milestone)
Chet Baker – YOU CAN’T GO HOME AGAING (A&M)
Chris Botti – A THOUSAND KISSES DEEP (Columbia) [this one’s soon to start a new life as a tea mug coaster]
Starship Beer – NUT MUSIC: AS FREE AS THE SQUIRRELS (UMS/Atavistic)
Anthony Braxton & Alex Horwitz – FOUR COMPOSITIONS (DUETS) 2000 (CIMP)

[Nate Dorward]

I suspect that Anthony Braxton is responsible for more discs that I've hastily disposed of than anyone else......I've never heard Four Orchestras but the recent double-CD set of four saxes + strings from Ljubljana stayed here no longer than necessary.... I've gotten rid of every Ken Vandermark disc I've received as quickly as possible. Recent hot potatoes have been the Dixon/Taylor/Oxley (which I palmed off on Will Montgomery, poor guy) & Ware's Threads. I finally managed to unload The Sign of 4 (Bailey/Metheny) in the past year, after years of unsuccess (all the record shops here are wise to it). Managed to dispose of Dave Douglas's The Invisible within two weeks of acquisition.

The single worst disc I still have--no contest--is the following, which I've hung onto because it's not every so often one gets a disc from someone who is obviously totally insane. THis is from my CD-ROM column in Cadence....And now for a visit to the Twilight Zone, courtesy a Japanese pianist named ARATORI. His disc TIMING-PROGRESSION.COM ARATORI VOL.1 (no label information) (Original/ 8bars1 / 8bars2/ 8bars3/ 8bars4/ 8bars5/ 8bars6/ 8bars7/ 8bars8/ cut1/ cut1 8bars1/ cut1 8bars2/ cut1 8bars3/ cut1 8bars4/ cut1 8bars5/ cut1 8bars6/ cut1 8bars7/ cut1 8bars8. 6:58.) (Aratori, el p. 23 June 2002) is, he tells us in the copious notes that accompany this release, the first fruit of thirty years’ musical research. During this span of time he discovered and refined a revolutionary musical system he calls the Timing Progression Theory, about which you can hear much, much more on his website (which handily doubles as the title of his CD). Given its lengthy gestation you might perhaps anticipate that timing-progression.com would be an expansive outpouring of the music that’s been pent up inside Aratori all these years, but you’d be wrong: it is a surprisingly compact aesthetic statement. Very compact, in fact—the entire disc is 6 minutes, 58 seconds long. The disc is divided into 18 tracks, of which the first track is a 64-bar electric keyboard improvisation (one minute, 29 seconds long) that bears a certain resemblance to the work of Lennie Tristano. Tracks 2-9 are exactly the same performance, now divided into eight-bar sections. Track 10, entitled “cut1,” is the same performance yet again, with (according to Aratori’s liner notes—I didn’t actually try to verify this) one beat removed to make it subtly different. Tracks 11-18 are “cut1” again, divided into eight-bar sections. So--in case you weren’t paying attention--the 6 minutes, 58 seconds of timing-progression.com actually contain only a minute and a half’s worth of music, repeated four times. Nonetheless, says Aratori, the disc required 180 days for recording (though, curiously, elsewhere in the notes is the information that the album was cut on a single day).
In his notes the pianist next addresses a question about this CD that may arise in skeptical jazz fans’ minds: “Why does it cost as much as $40?” The answer appears to be complex, to judge by the two pages of explication that follow. From what I can make out, it involves his conviction that any purchaser of the CD will want to listen to it at least 100,000 times. Helpfully, he assures us that this is physically possible: “I have listened to it about 100,000 times in a year after my recording it. Really? Yes, it needs just 10 hours a day. And I continue to do.” Your forty bucks also gets you an authentic Aratori signature: according to the website, “The title and so on with his autograph are all written by Aratori's hand. Your name etc. ‘to Your name’ can be also written. ... And a serial number is written begining from ‘No. 0001’. That is to say, the serial number means how fast you discover the value of Aratori's music historically!” I am truly disappointed that my reviewer’s copy is unnumbered. Drat!The non-insane disc which has come repeatedly closest to getting pitched is Frisell's Nashville (Ghost Town already went bye-bye). Archie Shepp's Live in San Francisco is pretty crummy; I just picked it up last week.

None of this is to take into account my LP collection, which I haven't been able to play for years (non-functioning record player I can't be bothered to fix). The worst thing there was probably the Bley/Giuffre/Connors/Peacock IAI disc whose name escapes me.

If you're taking into account complete sets, Larry Young's Heaven on Earth on the Mosaic set is pretty horrible. Bizarre to have it sitting next to Unity....

[Brian Olewnick]

See, there ya go. While I don't have the album, I was present at MOMA for the Sonny Rollins solo concert and have very fond memories of it!

That Brax is the one with the comic, right? I almost bought that several times figuring, no matter how bad it was, I really should have it. But I never pulled the trigger.

btw, I haven't traded in an album since about 1976. If I think something's really execrable, I just toss it. Happily, this usually only occurs on odd occasions like when Walt dumps a bunch of his Leo promos on me! ;-)

[Nate Dorward]

Derek--hey, if Ware's on your list, shouldn't Mr Munoz be there too.... ;)


Interesting to see the simulpost with Derek shares a number of the same gobblers--Braxton, Ware, Metheny/Bailey.

[Brian Olewnick]

If I expanded my list to 20, 'Sign of 4' might well show up. iirc, there are a few minutes, four or five maybe, on one of the discs where some actual interplay occurs.

[Pete C]

Originally posted by Nate Dorward
Archie Shepp's Live in San Francisco is pretty crummy;


Not my favorite Shepp (Mama Too Tight & The Way Ahead probably are), but I vociferously disagree nonetheless.

[Jon Abbey]

ok, here are ten CDs I edited out of my collection since Brian started this thread. I'm not exactly judging the quality of the music, I just don't need them in my own collection anymore, for enjoyment or for reference.

Eugene Chadbourne-Ayler Undead (Grob)
Conspiracy-Intravenous (Matchless)
Andrew Cyrille-My Friend Louis (DIW/Columbia)
L@N-L@N (A-Musik)
Big John Patton-Blue Planet Man (Evidence)
Pneuma-Psychabuse (Marquee/Belle Antique)
Bobby Previte/John Zorn-Euclid's Nightmare (Depth of Field)
Produkt-Stretch (Raster/Noton)
Seikazoku-Outtakes '66-'78 (Fractal)
Twisted Science-Blown (Lo)

discs I listened to some of while weeding and decided I wanted to hold onto for now:

Breschand/Doneda/Zbinden-L'Intense (For 4 Ears)
Champion Jack Dupree-One Last Time (Bullseye)
Solid Eye-When The Snowman Starts to Talk (Senseworks)

[Brian Olewnick]

Originally posted by Derek Taylor

Leonard Nimoy – MR. SPOCK’S MUSIC FROM OUTER SPACE (Varese Saraband)


I've never heard this but it's impossible to imagine that it wouldn't contain sufficient camp value to ensure it a place in anyone's collection.

The only one of Jon's recently deceased I own is the Previte/Zorn which I agree is pretty dud-worthy.

[Brian Olewnick]

Here's 10 more bottom dwellers that I'm too kind to evict:

John King - Hot Thumb in a Funky Groove

Roscoe Mitchell - Sound and Space Ensemble (whatever virtues in the former, Tom Buckner more than makes up for it in the latter)

Joe McPhee/Milo Fine/Steve Gnitka - MFG in Minnesota (worst McPhee I've ever heard--probably a semi-valuable piece of vinyl though)

Greg Osby - Sound Theatre

Sam Rivers - Crystals (I know many here liked the CD--I've had the LP since its release and have always found it shrill and unconvincing)

Jean-Paul Bourelly - Jungle Cowboy

Praxis - Transmutation

Chris MacGregor/BOB - Country Cooking

Ray Lema - Nangadeef

Jamaladeen Tacuma - Jukebox

[Derek Taylor]

Brian, that Brax I mentioned is indeed the one with the ‘stand-up comic.’ Sections of it have Horwitz dryly reading passages out of some newspaper while Brax toots & tweets beside him. It’s such a bizarre project that I had to hold on to it, though I’d advise keeping your gun holstered on a purchase.

The Nimoy is hilarious, definitely a ‘so bad it’s good’ album. Nice balance between cheesy instrumentals (one’s mysteriously called “Amphibious Assault”) & Nimoy vocal numbers- he does a wicked version of “Where Is Love” from the musical Oliver.

I’ve read a lot of conflicting opinions about the Rollins solo record over the years. What’s there strikes me as Sonny rehearsing in front of the audience & seems terribly unfocused. Was there more to the performance than the hour or so worth of music on the disc?

I’m still trying to figure out the appeal of Milo Fine? Have him on a few discs & he always seems to be the fly in the ointment. I’ve lived in Minneapolis for two plus years & still have yet to hear him play in person.

Nate, the Muñoz went in the compost pile about a month ago so I couldn’t count it. The completist in me is holding on to the Ware.

Have to say I like Shepp’s SAN FRANCISCO too, though not nearly as much as several of his other Impulse dates.

[Brian Olewnick]

Originally posted by Derek Taylor
I’ve read a lot of conflicting opinions about the Rollins solo record over the years. What’s there strikes me as Sonny rehearsing in front of the audience & seems terribly unfocused. Was there more to the performance than the hour or so worth of music on the disc?


No, I think that was it. It was a non-stop improvisation, mixing in the occasional few bars from this or that standard and playing off the car horns on the other side of the garden wall. Saw the AEC give a great show at the same location around the same time.

[Captain Hate]

This is a great thread; I'm gonna have to give it some serious thought but there'll be at least two Steve Coleman's on it. Two of the most disappointing releases that I own are on Arabesque, usually a label with quality stuff: Thomas Chapin's "I've Got Your Number" and the Tiny Bell Trio's "Live in Europe". Both of them are amazingly lifeless, with the Chapin showing very little of the spark of his Knitting Factory releases. The third most disappointing is Zorn's The Parachute Years, which I've noted that some people here like, at least some of the individual discs. I'd like to know if the people who like them saw these pieces performed; because I'm usually a shill for Zorn yet I can't find ANY enjoyment in any of the discs in this collection.

Glad to see that some of Eugene Chadbourne's output is being recognized for what it is. I've always admired his ability but his discs make it very difficult to like him.

I'll also throw in an Archie Shepp: Attica Blues (at least I think that was the title of a big band release on Blue Marge); I got it after Cadence (and the readers poll, I think) gushed all over it. Boy were my eager anticipations dashed as I listened to these flaccid big band charts and mediocre soloing. I don't think I listened to it ever again.

The Jazzpar Prize with David Murray & Pierre Dorge's New Jungle Orchestra is far less than the sum of the parts.

[Brian Olewnick]

I don't have the Zorn box but I've heard almost all of the pieces over the years (on radio) and nothing's ever really grabbed me. Never saw any performed although I saw Zorn and many of the same musicians (including Chadbourne and Polly Bradfield) in a couple of non-Zorn-led performances in the late 70s that I also thought uninteresting although, to be fair, I wasn't at the time very much into that "school" of improv.

I think my least favorite Zorn that I own is probably "Nani Nani". Some might nominate "Zohar", the one with rabbinical chanting almost totally buried underneath layers of vinyl hiss and scratches, but I actually have a weird liking for that one.

[Jon Abbey]

Originally posted by Brian Olewnick
I think my least favorite Zorn that I own is probably "Nani Nani". Some might nominate "Zohar", the one with rabbinical chanting almost totally buried underneath layers of vinyl hiss and scratches, but I actually have a weird liking for that one.

I've sold both of these. I remember liking parts of the Parachute box quite a bit, but I haven't heard it in a while. my Zorn collection continues to shrink, it was up to 50 at one point...

[saltwatersnow]

every zorn ive come across has long been sold.

[Nate Dorward]

I've hung onto Chadbourne's early album of country tunes (I forget the title--it's got Zorn, Cora, &c on it), which is a lot of fun, but I think I've disposed of everything else. (No: hold on: I have a collab with Jimmy Carl Black. Have to get rid of that.) Actually, a serious question: how many good Eugene Chadbourne albums are there? For me, the most disappointing was actually Strings (Intakt), which is a virtually "straight" album of guitarplaying which reveals that actually Chadbourne's a totally mediocre player of actual, you know, TUNES. There's one of the world's longest & most uneventful versions of "Monk's Mood" on record, closely followed by the equally tedious "Day Dream"; there's a "Coltrane Medley" which is as far as I can tell no such thing (a joke about the sameyness of modal improvisation? maybe). The good stuff on it is all the Chadbourne "originals"--the tribute to Derek Bailey at the end for instance is surprisingly good. Too little, too late, though.

The Shepp Live in San Francisco isn't completely hopeless, but, jeez--it's got the world's feeblest rhythm section, they can't seem even to get through a blues without it sagging, & a third of the original album (a generous 34 minutes) was taken up with plummy poetry+jazz, a plunking piano solo & a pleasant but inconsequential opening fanfare. At least with the reissue you get the mother of all expansions, with 40 minutes added to it. Still, it's pretty ragged stuff.

Yes, Zohar is a waste of space. The main problem with it is that Zorn has arranged that once you open the packaging there's no indication anywhere on it that it's a Zorn/Eye disc. So just TRY friggin' selling it to a record shop & convincing them it's not just two doddering rabbis...

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

The sound quality on the Collectables reissue of Gloria Gaynor's "I Will Survive" on 45-rpm vinyl is mind-bogglingly poor, like a faint echo in a dumpster, the worst quality recording of any commercial release I've ever heard.

I like Zorn's work a whole lot, and don't plan to part with any of it, but the one with the duck calls -- inexplicably entitled "The Classic Guide To Strategy, vol. One & Two" -- is almost unlistenable. More than fifteen minutes of it and I start to feel like Daffy Duck. The only album in my collection of about 20 Zorns that I don't like.

And although I adore Anita O'Day and am a completist collector of her work, her last album, "Rules of The Road," was too painfully bad for me to keep more than a day.

[Gary Sisco]

Jeez, Jon, "My Friend Louis" is one of my favorite CDs!

Re the solo Rollins. I like that one, too, Brian, and have it on vinyl. I'll have to get it burned one of these days so I can hear it straight through without having to turn the record over. Must've been cool to be there and also have the recording, for the memory of it.

I can't answer this question, as I don't hang on to records I don't like. There are about a dozen or so on my discard pile at the moment, about half jazz and half euroclassical. I'll not list them so as not to embarass any of the cats, as some of them I liked fine for a few listens but wouldn't ever return to. That's where I draw my keep or sell line. I don't need to keep things I'm not going to listen to again, sometime.

[Jon Abbey]

Originally posted by Gary Sisco
Jeez, Jon, "My Friend Louis" is one of my favorite CDs!

cool, I have a copy for sale now, tell a friend. :)

I don't need to keep things I'm not going to listen to again, sometime.

exactly my point, I have more than 6000 CDs, including hundreds and hundreds of jazz CDs, a genre I've obviously lost most of my interest in, and don't anticipate any sort of resurgence any time soon.

[Nate Dorward]

Actually, The Classic Guide to Strategy is one of the few Zorn discs I still pull out now & again. I like the simplicity. Though the masterpiece from the duck-call period is surely Yankees, which I recently pulled out & remembered how good it was.

Yeah, My Friend Louis is rather underwhelming. I recall it had a two or three good tracks on it though, including a Dolphy cover. But considering the lineup it could really be a better disc....

[Frisco]

HAPPY NEW YEAR, ALL!

A rather negative thread to kick off the New Year, but all in good fun, I guess. If we don't take it too seriously.

I'm searching my basement for perhaps my least favorite record of all time. Does anyone know about an LP of Toshinori Kondo and (was it?) IMA? After hearing Kondo in Die Like a Dog, I bought this LP of blatant commercial slickness.

ARCHIE SHEPP LIVE IN SAN FRANCISCO! One of my first hundred or so LPs as a kid. Nate, I still love it. "Keep Your Heart Right" and "The Lady Sings the Blues" make the record worthwhile. Still in Shepp's most creative period, his raw, gritty, soulful sound, and Beaver Harris....Beaver Harris! part of the the "world's feeblest rhythm section"? Wow. I'm not sure about a 34 minute poetry/jazz thing. My record is about 35 minutes total. Did they do something wierd with a reissue?

Some other major dissapointments (I can't say worst) still in my collection:

RELAY EIGHT - Sunday 11th June 2000 - on 213 Music
*great musicians like Mark Wastell, Gail Brand, Butcher, etc...but the concept didn't do much for me.

OLE ROMER (w/David Murray) - "MAIN ROOTS AND DECENT FOOD" on Olufssen
*I was listening to a lot of David Murray at the time and made this mistake.

WADADA LEO SMITH'S GOLDEN QUARTET - "THE YEAR OF THE ELEPHANT" - on PI
*Leo, Anthony Davis, Malachi Favors are among my favorites but I got nothing out of this one.

HANS REICHEL - "YUXO" on A,l,l
*I like a lot of Reichel's prior FMP stuff.

CHARLIE HADEN "QUARTET WEST" on Verve
*Bought this for 96 cents. What happened to Haden?

[lazarus]

I never keep records I don´t like for very long time but I have a few titles that I´m going to sell, trade or maybe give away:



Toshimaru Nakamura - No-Input Mixing Board 2

Taku Sugimoto - Italia

Musica Transonic - Hard Rock Transonic

Kali Fasteau - Comraderie & Vivid

Amon Düül II - Vive La Trance

[Jon Abbey]

put Italia on Ebay, it's been out of print for a while.

[Jason Bivins]

I try to weed out regularly, but usually only 10 or so at a time.

Laz, I'm interested in that Sugimoto if you want to sell, trade, or give.

[Nate Dorward]

No, the poetry/jazz thing is just "The Wedding", a fairly short track (3 minutes long). I like "Keep Your Heart Right", Rudd's composition, pity it's only a minute long. -- Nah, can't say much good about Beaver Harris or about Worrell, who seems to spend a lot of his time stuck playing the same four notes (root, 7th, 6th, 5th, repeat....). -- The reissue adds an unissued Ellington cover & then the entirety of Three for a Quarter, One for a Dime, which originally was an entire album to itself.

Oh yes, speaking of Haden's descent into mush--one of the crummier things I have here still is Ron Carter's The Golden Striker. Not that it's bad, it's just so nicey-nice that it sinks effortlessly into the background.....considering it's god Carter, Mulgrew Miller & Russell Malone on it, that's a considerable waste of talents.

[Dan G]

Originally posted by lazarus

Kali Fasteau - Comraderie & Vivid

Fasteau seems to be the only person who can make records with Joe McPhee, WIlliam Parker, Hamid Drake, Warren Smith, Bobby Few, Noah Howard, Daniel Carter and Sabir Mateen and have it be completely lifeless and boring. And I saw her once in a trio with McPhee and some percussionist, and actually walked out - it was very hard, being a big fanof Joe, but I couldn't take it.

[vibes]

Having really enjoyed "The October Suite" and the album he did with Bill Evans, I jumped at the chance to pick up Gary McFarland's "Soft Samba" a few months ago. A complete disappointment - too laid back, lame vocals, etc. Steer clear of this one.

[Frisco]

Originally posted by Nate Dorward
No, the poetry/jazz thing is just "The Wedding", a fairly short track (3 minutes long). I like "Keep Your Heart Right", Rudd's composition, pity it's only a minute long. -- Nah, can't say much good about Beaver Harris or about Worrell, who seems to spend a lot of his time stuck playing the same four notes (root, 7th, 6th, 5th, repeat....). -- The reissue adds an unissued Ellington cover & then the entirety of Three for a Quarter, One for a Dime, which originally was an entire album to itself.


Nate, is there an Ellington piece aside from "In a Sentimental Mood"? That's on the LP. I always liked that, how he rips into some totally out blowing, with no hints of the tune, then he and Roswell just sweetly slide into the melody.

Have you heard Beaver Harris' recordings as a leader, with his 360 Degree Music Experience? One on Red Records, "Safe" that has Ken McIntyre and Grachan Moncur; another on Soul Note, "Beautiful Africa" with the same band minus Ron Burton (piano); one on his own 360 Degree label, "From Rag Time to No Time" , and one on Shemp Records (with a picture of the Stooges' Shemp Howard in the corner) called, "A Well Kept Secret" with Don Pullen, Hamiet Bluiett, Ricky Ford, ao. There's also a record under Beaver's name on Owl Records that is a lot of solo work but features a ten minute duet with David S. Ware from 1977!

Beaver's been involved in a lot of great music in the history of creative music coming out of the African-American experience. Perhaps a bit unorthodox, and I'm not schooled in the technical aspects of music to know what he's doing, but it always sounded vital, powerful, and creative to me.

[Nate Dorward]

Yes the extra track is "Things Ain't What They Used to Be" (actually a Mercer Ellington tune not Duke). -- I don't have anything of Harris's as a leader, but have him on miscellaneous dates as a sideman with Ayler, Doyle, &c.

[Derek Taylor]

“What happened to Haden?” Lingering tinnitus coupled with an afflicting affection for sappy pop. I remember reading somewhere that he attributes the onset of the former in part to his years playing w/ Shepp & Rudd. Weird.

Have to pull out LIVE IN S.F. again & give it some attention- the bonus material is the real bonanza if I recollect right. I like Beaver Harris’ work on Shepp’s STEAM (one of my favorite Archies) & he’s also solid on Makanda Ken McIntyre’s CHASING THE SUN.

I think one of Fasteau’s biggest problems is her tendency to edit the tracks on her albums in the interest of soliciting radio play. The splices are often jarringly abrupt & seriously compromise the music. I’ve only heard her in concert once (Vision 03’), where she debuted a new synthesizer set-up, another dubious direction IMHO. But I can’t fault her for obvious passion & enthusiasm she holds for the music. Her stuff with Donald Rafael Garrett as The Sea Ensemble has its moments too.

These aren’t in my collection anymore, but two large-scale projects that left me almost completely cold are the 1956 Bethlehem production of PORGY & BESS w/ Mel Torme playing lead and Braxton’s opera TRILLIUM R. Took some flak for saying so in Cadence. Anyone else heard these & have an opinion?

[Brian Olewnick]

In the same sense that I keep "Four Orchestras" around, I probably really should have Trillium, but I've never made the move. Everything I've read about it screams, "Stay away!" If I saw it for cheap somewhere though, I'd probably pick it up.

[Clay Fink]

Originally posted by Nate Dorward
I've hung onto Chadbourne's early album of country tunes (I forget the title--it's got Zorn, Cora, &c on it), which is a lot of fun, but I think I've disposed of everything else. (No: hold on: I have a collab with Jimmy Carl Black. Have to get rid of that.) Actually, a serious question: how many good Eugene Chadbourne albums are there?

I've got a few that I like a lot: the C&W album mentioned; "I've Been Everywhere" is GREAT as are "Country Protest", "Corpses of Foreign Wars" and "KILL EUGENE". I've bought a couple of his homemade CDRs; on e of him doing Broadway show tunes (I like it, though most people would say it sucks) and a duo with Paul Lovins that's very nice.

"An Afternoon in Austin" on Boxholder is an excellent duo with pedal steel player Susan Alcorn and "The Hellingtons" on Intak is very interesting and challenging stuff.

I think that the good Doctor is a real genius. Seriously. He falls way short sometimes, but there's a dedication and sense of wonder (and humor) in his stuff that I don't see in much of in creative improvised music.

[DTMX]

I can listen to anything. I play Sign of Four over headphones to drown out the office chatter, and once I found myself getting into a chill-out ambient recording which turned out to be my refrigerator humming after the CD player locked up. But Zorn's First Recordings CD annoys me to no end. Not even bad enough to be funny.

[Nate Dorward]

Well, yeah, but at least First Recordings plays fair with a title like that. Can one expect too much from a set releasing stuff he did as a teenager? Whereas the thing about Sign of 4, Threads or other of the really lousy things discussed here is the disparity between the grandiosity of the presentation, the label publicity & so forth....& the eventual molehill.

[Gary Sisco]

Hey, Laz! I'll take that Nakamura off your hands.

[Clay Fink]

I've got stuff that's bad that's good:

Spiro Agnew Speaks Out
Victor Lundberg - Letter to My Teenaged Son
The Bear Family Bonanza Box
A record of sex instructiosn for Catholic parents
Senator Sam Ervin doing "Bridge Over Troubled Water"
"Battle Hymm Of Lt. Calley"
Song Poem stuff.

I like it and I keep it. I usually get rid of stuff that's supposed to be good but that I can't bring myself to enjoy. Some of these include:

Franz Koglmann - "L'Heure Bleu" - As much as I love Tony Coe I thought this was awful. I just don't think Koglmann plays very well.

William Parker - "The Mayor of Punkville" - Terrible sounding big band. A number of nice solos but the ensemble just doesn't ever come together.

Brotherhood of Breath - "Live at Willisau" - Wonderful players, not much in the way of group cohesion. I tried to enjoy it but just couldn't get into it.

Misha Mengleberg - "Two Days in Chicago" - The sessions with Fred Anderson are excellent. The one with Vandemark is uninspiring and the one with Ab Baars is borderline awful. Baars' alto work is terrible.

Bakida Carroll - "Shadows and Reflections" - Julius Hemphill was not much of a tenor player and sticks to tenor here. This is otherwise not a bad session.

Billy Bang - "Invitation" - Charles Tyler's out-of-tune Baritone is too much for me.

Mal Waldron/MArion Brown - "Songs of Love and Regret" - I loved Mal, but Brown sounds like he totally had lost his chops when this was recorded.

Various Archie Shepp recordings fron the late 70s and the 80s. The Sackville release, a live recording on Soul Note, etc.. Shepp was not playing well during this period and it's sad to listen to.

I have to say that some of the stuff I have with Irene Aibe singing on it is pretty bad. The thing is that there's other stuff that I like. "Songs" and "The Gleam" are good.

[Pete C]

Only goes to show ya. I think the McGregor & Mengelberg albums that Clay disses are fantastic throughout.

I haven't heard the Bang, but I loved Tyler.

I will agree that the Waldron/Brown is weak.

[Jonathan Sutton]

And I love the Koglmann. I think his trumpet is fine, and Coe is very good, but it is a very different Burkhard Stangl from the one we know (also great) that makes the record for me.

[Jon Abbey]

that was where I first heard Burkhard, as a sideman on Koglmann Hat Arts.

[Captain Hate]

I like the Koglmann also; and the Bakida Carroll and Mengelberg. But Clay's absolutely right about the Mayor of Punkville; I couldn't believe how bad it was when I first (and second) listened to it; plus the terrible songs go on forever. Badmouthing Irene Aebi doesn't work for me.

[Clay Fink]

I thought Stangl was pretty uninteresting, and slightly anoying, on the Koglmann. Of course it's been 5 or so years since I heard it, so I might have a different opinion now. BWTFDIK, I think Eugene is a Genius.

On the Mengleberg: try listening to Baars's alto again. He sounds out-of-tune and his tone is rather ugly. I should listen to it again and see if I still feel the same way. And Vandemark's take on Monk on disk 1 is kind of dull. Not that that's a crime or anything.

I'm sorry Capt.. I didn't know you were still holding a torch for Irene. I didn't say I hated all of her stuff.

[Clay Fink]

As to the Bakida Carroll; does anyone else think Hemphill falls flat on this? I love Julius' alto playing and his writting, but his choice of horn on this one is perplexing, though he IS better as a tenor player than Ornette is as a trumpet player.

[Clay Fink]

...and nobody commented on my Sam Ervin record.

Snobs.

[Frisco]

What took you guys so long to hit on William Parker? You thought Mayor of Punkville was that bad? To make a list of Worst Recordings? The record that made it into the top vote getters for the 2001 Cadence Readers Poll, and made the year end lists of Robert Iannopolo and Jerome Wilson? True, that band has never been recorded well, but it's one powerful group. And I don't think this record is any exception. I seem to remember that the tune "I Can't Believe I'm Here" had some monstrous moments. But I guess that's why we debate.

[Nate Dorward]

Haven't heard Mayor of Punkville. Er, does Parker actually play bass on it? 'cause the main down side of the one Parker Little Huey disc I've heard, Raincoat in the River, was that Parker mostly played shakuhaci, bombard....in fact just about everything EXCEPT bass. It's not a bad disc but nothing special either.

Oh yeah, speaking of Parker playing things other than bass, I should've listed Eloping with the Sun as a real clunker.

L'Heure Bleue is OK, though like anything of Koglmann's I've heard it's a bit frosty.

[saltwatersnow]

worst instrument ever let onto a record is the synth mat shipp plays on corridors and parellels

[Gary Sisco]

sws -- You should've heard it live, then. Now, that was bad. I had the unfortunate experience, in the good company (thankfully) of our friends Brian and Gordon. Truly boring set. I never even thought about buying the CD, after that. And Ware's set at Vision last summer was also a bore. I guess I'm done with Ware, it's sounding like.

Clay -- A good hip hop dj would snap up some of those records right away for samples.

[Frisco]

I'm checking out the Mayor of Punkville record. A lot of that was recorded during Little Huey's series of Saturday afternoon concerts at Tonic in 1999. I attended the September 4 concert and it was the tune "I Can't Believe I Am Here" that was the real killer. The music that afternoon, as I recall, was wildly intense. Rob Brown blew one of those stratospheric solos. Lodico, Kono, and Swell were soaring on the trombones. Again, I think what suffers most on all of the Little Huey recordings is the sound. But it's the best that those of us who love the band have at this point. For those who think it's the "worst recording in your collection", perhaps this style of music isn't your cup of tea.

[Captain Hate]

I dunno, Pat; sometimes I run hot and cold on Parker. The sound on Punkville is horrible, for sure; I like "Sunrise in the Tone World" better but some of the songs meander on that as well. I'm sure I would've appreciated the songs more if I'd seen them performed, but I can only go with what I hear.

Every now and then I feel like getting rid of all my Parker except for when Hamid Drake plays with him (I think they have a certain synergy that sets those performances above the rest) and then he comes up with a winner like "Bob's Pink Cadillac". I promised Gordon this summer that I'd give "The Peach Orchard" another listen; maybe I'll spend this whole weekend driving around listening to that and Punkville (four discs worth; that's a lot of driving).

Although I pay attention to the Cadence polls, they still contain some puzzling choices, imo. I don't totally dislike it but I thought Andrew Hill's "A Beautiful Day" had some of the sloppiest playing I've heard all year.

[stonemonkts]

I tend to sell stuff I don't like ASAP, but one CD I own that would make this list is "Quicksand", a recording with Frank Gratkowski, Georg Graewe, and Paul Lovens. You'd expect a much better effort from those three. The sound is muddy too. I was very disappointed, as I greatly enjoy everything else I own with any of those guys.

I can't even list it at Amazon or Half.com, since they don't recognize the CD.

[Pete C]

Originally posted by stonemonkts
I can't even list it at Amazon or Half.com, since they don't recognize the CD.

So try the J.C. classifieds, and be sure to give it a rave review.

[saltwatersnow]

i sold quicksand, i much prefer tone world to punkville, i think the parker ibarra rythmn section and there albums on parkers, shipp and wares groups were golden period of that style free jazz. the blue series is seriously embarrasing in my opinion. keyboards and drum machines stright out of the casio

[Frisco]

Originally posted by saltwatersnow
i think the parker ibarra rythmn section and there albums on parkers, shipp and wares groups were golden period of that style free jazz.

Yes indeed. I remember a performance by the DSW Quartet where I couldn't sit down. For "free jazz" that music was so rhythmically happening that you just couldn't sit still. Susie, come back!

[Clay Fink]

I picked up Sonny Simmons "Live in Paris". It has to be the worst recording, at least as far as recent recordings go, in my collection. The performance, on the other hand, is great. I'm keeping it for now. I wish I knew the thinking behind it's release...

[Captain Hate]

Arhoolie's aren't exactly audiophile recordings.

[Frisco]

Originally posted by Clay Fink
I picked up Sonny Simmons "Live in Paris". It has to be the worst recording, at least as far as recent recordings go, in my collection. The performance, on the other hand, is great. I'm keeping it for now. I wish I knew the thinking behind it's release...

I agree, Clay. This one is a terrible recording. I've heard him play a few times since his return and know that he still sounds great. But the recordings lately are not doing him justice. This one, the CIMPs, actually the Parallactic stuff isn't too bad but not great. Doesn't he have one just out with Braxton?

[Nate Dorward]

Yeah Quicksand is rather disappointing--in particular because of the way-out-of-whack balance between the instruments. Graewe is virtually buried under Lovens' percussion.

[Jon Abbey]

this thread has been really helpful for me so far to pull out discs to potentially weed out, something I don't get around to nearly often enough. so, please, keep them coming... :)

[Jon Abbey]

OK, I edited 10 more out today:

Badland-Badland (Bruce's Fingers)
Brotherhood of Breath-Travelling Somewhere (Cuneiform) (I like their other records a lot, but this one just doesn't do it for me)
Frank Gratkowski-Quicksand (Meniscus)
Charlie Haden-The Montreal Tapes (Verve)
Charlie Haden-Always Say Goodbye (Quartet West) (Gitanes/Verve) (very pretty, but I still have Haunted Heart if I am ever in this mood)
A Handful of Dust-For Patti Smith (Freeway Sound)
Jason Kahn-Songs for Nicolas Ross (Rossbin)
Lesiman-The Future Sound of Lesiman (Easy Tempo)
Money Mark-Push the Button (Mo Wax/London)
Thinking Fellers Union Local 282-Mother of All Saints (Matador)

ones I decided to hold onto after playing some of them: none today, 10 for 10 went bye-bye.

[walto]

Nate, I'm surprised you got feedback on a Trillium pan. I thought everybody agreed it was terrible.

And the Leo gush of Chadbourned garbage is absolutely amazing. Doc simply must have some embarassing photographs.

[Pete C]

Originally posted by Jon Abbey
Charlie Haden-The Montreal Tapes (Verve)


Which one? There were at least 4 (Bley, Allen, Gismonti, LMO). I think the one with Bley & Motian is inferior to their studio album, but still OK.

[Jon Abbey]

the one with Cherry and Blackwell. sound quality's not very good, I have much better recordings of all of them...

[Frisco]

Originally posted by Jon Abbey
the one with Cherry and Blackwell. sound quality's not very good, I have much better recordings of all of them...

Funny. That was the one concert that I attended while visiting Montreal. It was kind of a sterile atmosphere as I recall. And the crowd (for some odd reason) laughed while Cherry was explaining the origins of the Dousn'gouni. (I know I spelled that wrong).

[Captain Hate]

Ok, having listened to it again I take back my slam at Mayor of Punkville (except for the shitty sound quality and I still prefer Sunrise in the Tone World). I'm sure it was great to be there for the performances because there is a lot of energy; plus you got to hear what happened after the annoying fade-outs. There are a couple of cuts they could've canned though.

[Nate Dorward]

Originally posted by walto
Nate, I'm surprised you got feedback on a Trillium pan. I thought everybody agreed it was terrible. Oops, did something I posted give this impression? I can't find the post. I've never reviewed or even heard any of the Trillium stuff, & don't want to, frankly. The only one of Braxton's megaprojects I've heard is the boring four saxes + string orchestra disc from a couple years back on Leo. I ended up giving it to Joe Christmas, maybe he can report on what he made of it.... I recall that it had some of the most impressively close-miked audience coughing & sneezing I've ever heard.

[Clay Fink]

Originally posted by Captain Hate
Ok, having listened to it again I take back my slam at Mayor of Punkville (except for the shitty sound quality and I still prefer Sunrise in the Tone World). I'm sure it was great to be there for the performances because there is a lot of energy; plus you got to hear what happened after the annoying fade-outs. There are a couple of cuts they could've canned though.

My complaint with that one isn't with the energy or the solos. I just think the ensemble sound is pretty lame. With all sorts of creative, large ensemble music, from Barry Guy to Bob Brookmeyer being recorded, this stuff falls flat, IMO.

[Lazy River]

Charlie Haden THE ART OF THE SONG (Verve)
Ella Fitzgerald ALL THAT JAZZ (Pablo)
Gerald Wilson That new New York thing. I got rid of it right away, so I can't
recall the exact title.

[Sergio Zamora]

I keep almost every CD I buy, yet I can think of very few recordings that I completely dislike. Generally, I'll find some redeeming quality even if I don't intend to listen to it again.

Oddly, two that come to mind both have Tim Berne. One is Drew Gress' "Spin & Drift" and the other is "Auto Da Fe", with Berne and an italian group.

Now, I'm a fan of Berne's and it's hard to imagine him doing something just outright boring, but there it is.

[Jon Abbey]

even in my biggest days as a jazz fan, I never liked Berne much. I tried pretty hard, maybe ten different CDs, and I probably saw him at least five times, but his compositions very often ended up sounding structurally the same to me, they wind around and around and around and don't end up going anywhere, and they take forever to do so, pretty self-indulgent to my ears. I've gotten rid of all of my discs with him as a leader, I'd rather listen to his mentor Hemphill (and yes, I realize, I don't actually have to choose, I'm merely stating my own preference here.)

anyway, I know he has a lot of serious fans here, and he's a nice guy. I wanted to like his work, I just never connected with it, so there you go.

how about "eai" discs, Sergio? any total duds come to mind?

[Sergio Zamora]

Originally posted by Jon Abbey
how about "eai" discs, Sergio? any total duds come to mind?

The closest that comes to mind is Kozo Inada's 0-b[] +2.7K. The one in the round, green plastic cover. Also, I think I mentioned that I just couldn't get with the Activity Center CD-Rs. Based on your endorsement of the latter, though, I'm gonna give it a few more spins when I can.

[Lazy River]

NEW YORK NEW SOUND is that Gerald Wilson CD. I hasten to add that I am ordinarily a Gerald Wilson Fan, but I thought this disc was less than mediocre.
LR

[Nathaniel Catchpole]

Damn, I really like Live in San Francisco.

Pharoah's Pharoah's First - not because of Pharoah, but could there be a worse rhthym section?

I've got much worse records than that, too embarrasing to post here, but they were never going to be anything but shit. This seems to be more of a disappointment thread, than an out and out shite thread.

[Captain Hate]

Originally posted by Sergio Zamora
Oddly, two that come to mind both have Tim Berne. One is Drew Gress' "Spin & Drift" and the other is "Auto Da Fe", with Berne and an italian group.

Now, I'm a fan of Berne's and it's hard to imagine him doing something just outright boring, but there it is. Damn, OZ; I don't know anything about "Auto Da Fe" but I thought "Spin & Drift" was pretty good! I'd be willing to bet it showed up on at least a couple of "best of" lists.

When I got the live duets with Berne & Crispell on Music & Arts I thought it sounded really crummy the first time I listened to it; so I put it aside and eventually got back to it about six months later; then I thought it sounded fine. Go figure.

[Frisco]

Originally posted by Nathaniel Catchpole
Damn, I really like Live in San Francisco.


That's quite a few votes for Shepp's "Live in SF" now. Cool. I think if you're a fan of the 60's "new thing", or "free jazz" or whatever you wanna call it, the ESP, Impulse, etc... you'll enjoy this Shepp record. Any other thoughts on Beaver Harris?

[Gary Sisco]

I'm not hot on Berne, either, though I've tried to be. We can't all dig everyone, I guess.

Here's one I found this week: Hampton Hawes -- High In The Sky, where he attempts to free up the music (slightly) and goes nowhere. Penguin calls it one for Hawes completists, which I'm certainly not, so if there are any here and you want it, give me an email and I'll send it to you. It's on my "to the used store" pile.

[walto]

FWIW, I like Shepp's "Live in San Francisco" and the Berne/Crispell duets. But there are plenty of Berne discs I have or have had (maybe half of them in total?) that I don't much care for.

[Brian Olewnick]

Least favorite eai disc in my collection: Michi - Norma (Hibari).

[Alastair]

International Domestic - Tetuzi Akiyama

[stonemonkts]

Originally posted by Frisco
Any other thoughts on Beaver Harris?

His recording entitled "Beautiful Africa" is very good. Kickass band too (Grachan Moncur III, Rahn Burton, Harris, and a young Cameron Brown).

[Jon Abbey]

Originally posted by Brian Olewnick
Least favorite eai disc in my collection: Michi - Norma (Hibari).

oof, good call. that one's dreadful, I told people really strongly not to buy it in the update when we originally stocked them, only time I've ever done that, I think. it's strange, all the other Hibaris are very good, but that one, yikes. International Domestic's not so great either, but that Michi record is just inexplicable.

[Nathaniel Catchpole]

Come on Jon, explain it.

[Sergio Zamora]

Originally posted by Captain Hate
Damn, OZ; I don't know anything about "Auto Da Fe" but I thought "Spin & Drift" was pretty good! I'd be willing to bet it showed up on at least a couple of "best of" lists.

Just shows to go ya.

[Cem]

Originally posted by Gary Sisco
I'm not hot on Berne, either, though I've tried to be. We can't all dig everyone, I guess.

Try as I might, I can't get into his writing, either. I *love* everyone who plays with him and I like his tone. He's an acquired taste, like sea-urchin, perhaps.

[Nate Dorward]

Another crummy one to add--Yosuke Yamashita, Asian Games, a godawful concoction from producer Bill Laswell. A sad waste of Y.Y.'s talents.

I should note that Shepp's Live in San Francisco is one of the worst recordigns in my collection. Which is to say that it's more borderline than awful--the awful stuff has already been disposed of into the garbage bin or the 2ndhand record shop. I don't really understand folks' enthusiasm for the disc, though.

[gnhrtg]

Bojan Z Trio - Transpacifik (too little improvisation and too many over-structured compositions for my taste, although the few tunes that allow for some stretching out show that he's capable of more)

Kenny Garrett - Simply Said (save for the burning tune, the title of which escapes me, where he plays with a different rhythm section including Mulgrew Miller)

Bill Frisell - w/Elvin Jones and Dave Holland

Bill Frisell - The Intercontinentals

I have not heard "Have a Little Faith" but I will; and that will be as much as I'm willing to give Frisell a chance as a leader. If there are any Frisell fans who don't have the above discs, let me say that I'm willing to even pay the postage and send these two discs. Feeling a little philanthropic (though not too much, I live in France, so the more proximate, the better).

I think I've sold about 20 discs over the last two months and so cannot, yet, come up with ten.

[Cem]

gnhrtg, I pm'd you. I'm up for a trade.

[Vince Kargatis]

Originally posted by gnhrtg

I have not heard "Have a Little Faith" but I will; and that will be as much as I'm willing to give Frisell a chance as a leader.

It strikes me as odd to judge Frisell as leader without hearing at least one of his defining quartet (& -related) (Roberts/Driscoll/Baron) albums, stuff from 1990 and before, especially Lookout For Hope or Where In the World?.

[gnhrtg]

Hi Vince - yeah at least I was being open if I could be as low as to praise my own frankness.
There was at least one track from "Have a Little Faith" in what you sent me last year and I did kind of dig that. That's why I will give it, and perhaps just one other album, a try since given that I like most of what I've heard of him as a sideman, I was surely expecting to be - but wasn't impressed. Thanks for the rec's Vince.
AMG with Jurek's infiltration seems to be getting less and less reliable a source lately (yeah I know that Jurek's hype and his alloting a part of the review section to warn us about how money-thirsty the record companies are has no impact on what Scott Yanow wrote years ago, but having read a couple of Jurek's reviews...)

Now that I'm home, I browsed through the racks and have the following to add:

McCoy Tyner - Jazz Roots (I don't know what made me buy this. The improvisations, using Tyner's well-worn pentatonic substitutions, seem to be carbon copies of each other regardless of the mood/groove of the tracks)

Cornelius Claudio Kreusch - Black Mud Sound (bought this only because of Kenny Garrett's presence, and although Garrett plays fine, if not at his best, Cornelius really needs someone to tell him that it's not happening, all IMO of course)

[shrugs]

Shadows and Reflections is incredible. Can't understand why anyone would not like Hemphill's playing.....

[shrugs]

Originally posted by stonemonkts
His recording entitled "Beautiful Africa" is very good. Kickass band too (Grachan Moncur III, Rahn Burton, Harris, and a young Cameron Brown).

fantastic date!!

[walto]

Vince! Where the hell have you been? We've missed you!!

[Vince Kargatis]

Originally posted by walto
Vince! Where the hell have you been? We've missed you!!

Thanks Walt! And sorry - there was a long transition after the move back from Greece - work and house stuff early on, and then just slowly getting back up to speed. I didn't get online at home for quite a while, that was part of it. Now I'm trying to work up to my previous participation, though I suspect I won't reach it, just because in Greece I was sitting at the computer at home all day - that's no longer the case.

[Clay Fink]

Originally posted by shrugs
Shadows and Reflections is incredible. Can't understand why anyone would not like Hemphill's playing.....

Maybe I'll give it a another try...

[Reid]

Originally posted by gnhrtg
Hi Vince - yeah at least I was being open if I could be as low as to praise my own frankness.
There was at least one track from "Have a Little Faith" in what you sent me last year and I did kind of dig that. That's why I will give it, and perhaps just one other album, a try since given that I like most of what I've heard of him as a sideman, I was surely expecting to be - but wasn't impressed. Thanks for the rec's Vince.

If you're going to give Frisell one more shot as leader, I would highly recommend checking out This Land. I think this is his best album. Then again, it's sort of like Have a Little Faith except it contains his own compositions.

[shrugs]

Originally posted by Clay Fink
Maybe I'll give it a another try...

This was a minion top 100 at one time. I am surprised nobody else has chimed in!

[Frisco]

Originally posted by shrugs
This was a minion top 100 at one time. I am surprised nobody else has chimed in!

I never heard anything from Julius that I didn't like. But I'd agree that I preferred his alto to tenor.

[Captain Hate]

Originally posted by Frisco
But I'd agree that I preferred his alto to tenor. Me too; actually for me it was alto, soprano and tenor in order of preference.

[Frisco]

Back in the mid 70's, Ann Arbor had an incredible "Eclipse Jazz" series going. They had some concerts in larger venues, but had a secondary series called "Bright Moments" in smaller venues, like lecture halls in dorm buildings. These were generally solo, duo, trio concerts. I remember a Dave Holland solo bass concert, the Air trio, and a beautiful duo concert between Julius Hemphill and Oliver Lake, probably around the time of that Sackville recording. I jumped at the chance to hear Julius every time afterwards.

[Captain Hate]

Originally posted by Frisco
a beautiful duo concert between Julius Hemphill and Oliver Lake, probably around the time of that Sackville recording. Buster Bee, baby!!

[Gary Sisco]

I've added Kenny Garrett's "Triology" and the Coltrane tribute CD to my to-go pile, if anyone here wants either. Send me an email or PM.

[shrugs]

From the archives, The preacher on Shadows and Reflections:

"The music is close to stunning at times - Hemphill blows some incredible sounds on this record."

[jazzfiend]

Gary, big mistake. Those are 2 fine sessions for Garrett.

But I did unload "Happy People".

[Pete C]

Jazzfiend, I'm thinking of dumping "Charles Gayle Plays, Mark Murphy Sings." The combination just doesn't work for me.

[jazzfiend]

Pete, please give it more time. It's a marriage made in heaven, my friend!

The interplay is awe inspiring!

You might also enjoy "The Great Dick Haymes Meets Henry Cow."

[Frisco]

I'm waiting for the Toni & Anthony Braxton collaboration, myself.

[Derek Taylor]

I heard it from a semi-reliable inside source that there’s a Charles Gayle “Plays the Weather Report Songbook (minus the heads)” project in the works. Should complement the Murphy collaboration quite well.

[Gary Sisco]

Jazzfiend -- I don't dislike them, but I've heard them enough times and won't be returning to them, so, in the interests of space, they go on the pile. I don't hang on to anything once I've decided I've heard it enough times.

My favorites of Kenny's are "African Exchange Student," "Black Hope," and "Songbook." I'll be keeping those.

[gnhrtg]

Good ones to keep Gary, although Black Hope does have its few light-fusiony moments. My guess is that it's Kirkland's presence there since I do remember that you enjoy his playing. I would say that Kenny's overall approach has changed very little, if at all, over the last 15 years. Nevertheless, he's still one of my favorite straight-ahead sax players. His appearances as a sideman are also quite consistent, say in Chick Corea's Bud Powell and Roy Haynes's Bird tributes, the recent Sco and that one tune I remember (Impressions) where blows Joshua Redman off the stage. Last three albums are sadly sub-par, although Standard is a definite improvement over the previous two; which are infuriatingly bland.

[Gary Sisco]

g -- Yeah, Black Hope has its poppy moments but they're done with some taste, at least, and they don't dominate the whole. That's my personal favorite, actually, of all of them. I also really love listening to him with Miles on the live CD. Turn that one up loud and it kicks some butt, fe true.

[gnhrtg]

I've come up with some other ones that I'm not hot on anymore - I've put them up for the trade in the classifieds section if anyone's interested: Lacy/Waldron Paris 1981 complete, one each of Jimmy Smity, Kenny Dorham, Art Blakey, Italian Instabile, and Momentum Space (Taylor/Redman/Jones)

Gary - in fact I really enjoy that live disc everytime, to me, both Miles and Kenny sound quite inspired. Would you, or anyone else, know of a way to get some additional live material from that period w/Garrett withouth having to buy the complete Montreaux box? The studio ones I bought from that period all wend to the to trade pile without exception, and quite quickly too, since I would like them stretch a bit and am not mad about the tunes.

[martini]

This has to be one of the worst CDs ever released: Anthony Braxton with Alex Horwitz "Four Compositions (Duets) 2000." This is Mr. Braxton's collaboration with the comic who happens to be the least funny comic I've ever heard. Man, he is bad. It is hard to crack a smile when you spend the entire time grimacing with every so-called joke Horwitz tries to develop.

But I still kinda love it because it is so bad. I feel the same twisted love for the Frank Zappa produced 2 LP "An Evening With Wild Man Fischer." There are some recordings that are so far in "left field" that I love them precisely for that reason. Pat Boone's
"In a Metal Mood" is another gem.

On a Braxton note, I actually enjoy Comps. 173, 174, and Trillium R. I listen to them infrequently, but they are actually pretty interesting. The whole storytelling aspect of his work is something that merits further inquiry, IMO.

Matt Martini

[Captain Hate]

Originally posted by martini
But I still kinda love it because it is so bad. I feel the same twisted love for the Frank Zappa produced 2 LP "An Evening With Wild Man Fischer." I think you're on to something, Matt. Wild Man Fischer's rants were hilarious: "Are we rolling?"

[Gary Sisco]

g... -- I don't know of another live, single disc. Agreed about the studio ones. I love my Miles more than any other music in the world, but that period, at least in the studio, just didn't hold up. I don't have any anymore, either, from the 80s. I kept the "hip hop" one, for oddity's sake. It's far from successful, of course, but it's a conversation piece of nothing else.

[Clay Fink]

Originally posted by Clay Fink
Maybe I'll give it a another try...

"Shadows and Reflections" - This one just falls flat for me. Julius does not sound very impressive on either horn, the piano is out of tune and the compositions are pretty uninteresting. I'm missing something. I do thing that Carroll was a wonderful trumpet player. His opening solo on John Carter's "Castles of Ghana" is one of my all-time favorites and he shines on a lot of other early 80s stuff. I stlll haven't heard his newer disks.

[Frisco]

Originally posted by Clay Fink
"Shadows and Reflections" - This one just falls flat for me.

Me too. And I'm a big fan of both Juilus and Bakida. I mean, I like it well enough but was not as enthused about it as some of their other records. But definitely not one of my "10 worst recordings". I was doing my radio program last night and worked around a few things featuring Bakida, Oliver Lake, and Julius. I had the Shadows and Reflections LP and couldn't find a track that I was very compelled to play.

[moneyp]

I love S&R. One of my favorites. I also like TRILLIUM (if the "Trillium" being mentioned is the one I'm thinking of). Worst album in my collection is ATTILLA by Attilla, which is owned strictly because it is so awful. There's some other novelty stuff in my collection, and some middling vinyl that I haven't gotten around to getting rid of yet, but otherwise, I don't keep anything I actively dislike. Most stuff I'll keep around in the hopes that it will appeal to me later, which does happen.

[walto]

Originally posted by mone peterson
I also like TRILLIUM (if the "Trillium" being mentioned is the one I'm thinking of).

Braxton's opera?! No one likes that!!

[Brian Olewnick]

Not even me! And I haven't heard it yet!

[Chris D]

I have an unplayed promo copy of the Milli Vanilli LP, sent to me in my reviewing days.
It's gotta be worth something someday.

[bobashep]

I have'nt heard much jazz, yet. But in my search I have run across a couple of real stinkers. Keep in mind, since my collection is small, I still have a couple of recordings, which I can't decide on which to trade.

1. The Simpsons sing the Blues (which they really don't)
2. Candy Dulfer- Saxuality, a couple of good tracks, a couple of Dave Koz knock-offs, and a horrid Miles Davis "So What" cover.
3. Buddy Rich - Compact Jazz - his band has a good beat, I just can't get into his solos.
4th, but not least, Wayman Tisdale- Power Forward. Basketball and Jazz don't mix, unless your Karl Malone. This album makes Kenny G sound listenable. This is the first jazz record in which I've heard the artist call out other basketball players:" I'm better than Bird, I got more jam than Jordan, Because they don't know how to play Jazz"
Well Wayman, sorry to say, but I bet they play better jazz than you , but know that hoops pays the bills.
Oh yeah, anything Kenny G is awful tooo!!!!!
-Bobashep, the Jazz bounty hunting hobbit

[bobashep]

To the owner of Attilla, if you have it on record (vynil) its worth about $250. That's because it the first ever recording of Billy Joel. And according to Joel only about 2000 were ever made, becuase He and his band mate prodoced it themselves and had very little money at the time. Hold on to that one, or sell it on ebay!!!! -Bobashep, the jazz bounty hunting hobbit

[Gordon B]

Misha Mengleberg - "Two Days in Chicago" - The sessions with Fred Anderson are excellent. The one with Vandemark is uninspiring and the one with Ab Baars is borderline awful. Baars' alto work is terrible.



I have to say that some of the stuff I have with Irene Aibe singing on it is pretty bad. The thing is that there's other stuff that I like. "Songs" and "The Gleam" are good.

Clay, I totally agree on the Mengleberg. There's also the ICP Orchestra Nichols/Monk 2-cd. The Nichols disc (sans Baars) is excellent but he mars the Monk disc. Some people, Reynolds included, defend Baars so it's nice to know that I'm not the only person who can't stand his playing.

OTOH, I like Irene Aebi. It's Judi Silvano I don't like.

[Gordon B]

Anthony Braxton- Eugene.
Hamiett Bluiett- Hamiett's Barbeque Band
Julius Hemphill- Five Chord Stud. Scott Yanow loves it but not me.
William Parker- Compassion Seizes Bed-Stuy. Sounds like it was recorded in a warehouse with the mike 100 yards away.
Gordon's edit on 4/11/04. I meant Sunrise in the Tone World. I like the other one a lot.
McCoy Tyner/Jackie McLean- It's About Time. McCoy can't do fusion.
Alan Silva- Seasons. A classic to many but I could barely get through it once.
Art Ensemble of Chicago- & CT- Thelonious Sphere Monk: Dreaming of the Masters, Vol. 2.
Dave Douglas- Sanctuary. I've tried hard to like it but no go.
Parker/Morris/Drake- Eloping with the Sun. Bored to tears.
Steve Lacy/Mal Waldron- Hot House. A rare Lacy dud.
Guitar Trio- Paco de Lucia/John McLaughlin/Al Di Meola- Talk about wasted chops!
Willem Breuker- Bob's Gallery. Way below par for WM. Even worse, the only track I liked turned out to be nearly identical to a track on Gil Evans- Out of the Cool.

[stonemonkts]

I must be the only member of this board who likes Eugene.

I like Five Chord Stud very much too.

I quickly sell stuff I don't care for, so I have nothing to add to the list.

Some recently sold CDs which would have made it if they were still part of my collection:

Ben Webster - Warm Moods - I love Webster, but this recording enters cheeseball territory and remains firmly planted. For a sensational Webster + strings recording. check out "Music for Loving" which is not cheesy despite the title.
David S. Ware - Surrendered
Archie Shepp - Conversations
Archie Shepp - Shepp/Rudd Live
Derek Bailey - Sign of Four - Awful. Penguin gives it 4 stars. It deserves 4 rotten eggs.

[Uli]

Hamiett Bluiett- Hamiett's Barbeque Band
Julius Hemphill- Five Chord Stud.



Boooo!

[Brian Olewnick]

I like "Eugene" also, though it took me a while to get into. Also enjoy the Hemphill and "Seasons". "Sign of Four" is pretty easily the worst Bailey I've ever heard.

[lazarus]

Alan Silva- Seasons. A classic to many but I could barely get through it once.


YES!!! It is a classic. I love it!!!

[Gordon B]

I agree with Stone about "Surrendered."


Uli, I remember you used to get on Reynolds and me whenever we praised Dave Douglas. Is there any particular Douglas album you dislike the most?

Jazz Passengers- Implement Yourself
Other Dimensions in Music- Now! I think I should give this another chance.
Ivo Perelman- Cama de Terra
Don Pullen- Tomorrow's Promises
Woody Shaw- Bemsha Swing.
Gianluigi Trovesi- Around Small Fairy Tales (Reynolds and I used to have huge arguments about this one).

[Nate Dorward]

I like "Eugene" also, though it took me a while to get into. Also enjoy the Hemphill and "Seasons". "Sign of Four" is pretty easily the worst Bailey I've ever heard.If you even hear Bailey on it--it's mostly just Pat, Pat, Pat.

I still have Eugene, though I think I've only ever listened to it 3 times. Probably reveals more to the hardcore Braxtonite than to the uncommitted. I wouldn't call it a bad album, though.

[chuckyd4]

Dave Douglas I am very mixed on.

One which I tried for months to get into but eventually ended up selling (so would qualify for this thread if I still had it): Tiny Bell Trio... the first one. Blah, as far as I'm concerned.

[Uli]

Uli, I remember you used to get on Reynolds and me whenever we praised Dave Douglas. Is there any particular Douglas album you dislike the most?


Yeah those were the days when Reynolds sed that no other trumpet player could carry Douglas's jockstraps or whetever the expression was.

.
Gianluigi Trovesi- Around Small Fairy Tales (Reynolds and I used to have huge arguments about this one).

That's my all time Reynolds dud.

[gnhrtg]

Woody Shaw- Bemsha Swing.


Agreed. Traded that a while ago.

[Dan G]

I've gotta chime in here for Eugene. It may not be a great Braxton album, but if it is one of the worst discs in your collection, you've been very lucky. Even if it's the worst Braxton you've done well (there's the one with the comedian....the one with Lauren Newton...etc)

[Gordon B]

I've gotta chime in here for Eugene. It may not be a great Braxton album, but if it is one of the worst discs in your collection, you've been very lucky. Even if it's the worst Braxton you've done well (there's the one with the comedian....the one with Lauren Newton...etc)

It's my least favorite Braxton but I haven't either of the two you mentioned. I like Lauren Newton. Is it that bad?

[Root Doctor]

Gordon and Stone: Do you dislike "Surrendered" because it seems too much like a Coltrane pastiche?

[randyhersom]

At least two recordings I love listed here, Hamp Hawes' High In the Sky and the Marion Brown - Mal Waldron duets. I like Ware's Surrendered and a couple of others too.

At times I think maybe there really isn't such a thing as bad music. Here's a couple that have generally failed to connect with me:

Peter Kowald - Was Da Ist
David Murray - Low Class Conspiracy

I feel that way about a lot of early Murray.

[Nate Dorward]

THe Braxton/Newton one is an odd one, no doubt about it: it's one of the Ghost Trance Pieces--an hour of Newton largely reciting numbers & letters: "R, R, R, R, R, R, J, J, J, J, J, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, ........" There are a few more eventful interludes in proceedings, but largely that's it.

[moneyp]

Braxton's opera?! No one likes that!!
No, I was thinking Marc Cary(sp). I'll take your word for it on the Braxton opera.

And $250 is not nearly enough for Attilla. What I'm afraid of is that Billy Joel will be the one secretly buying it so he can destroy it. This must live on in infamy.

I don't know how Larry Nagel can feel the way he does about R*d St*w*art when Billy-fucking-Joel still walks the earth....

[Gordon B]

Gordon and Stone: Do you dislike "Surrendered" because it seems too much like a Coltrane pastiche?

To me it's watered down Coltrane, spiritualism without musical substance, like bad Pharoah Sanders or Billy Harper. I traded it away a long time ago but I remember that on one of the tracks Shipp kept playing many of the same chords in the same sequence that Tyner did when playing MFT with Trane. It annoyed the heck out of me.

[Dan G]

At times I think maybe there really isn't such a thing as bad music. Here's a couple that have generally failed to connect with me:

Peter Kowald - Was Da Ist

Do you like any solo bass recordings? That one is, imho, stunning.

[stonemonkts]

Gordon and Stone: Do you dislike "Surrendered" because it seems too much like a Coltrane pastiche?

I agree with most of what Gordon said, although I didn't hear Shipp repeating McCoy Tyner chords. I really like the other Ware recordings I mentioned much more. I'll go with the old "it didn't connect with me" and leave it at that. I would say it sounded uninspired, while the others were brimming with inspiration, and Ware's own brand of ingenuity.

I love Kowald's "Was Da Ist".

[Gordon B]

Stone, I like all of the DIW Ware's I own. I've never heard Oblations and Blessings on Silkheart. I'll have to pick it up one day. FYI, I just started reading Krieger and Tanner's Omaha 8 book. I've decided to forego Hold 'em and gear up towards playing Omaha 8 online.

[Captain Hate]

Julius Hemphill- Five Chord Stud. Scott Yanow loves it but not me.
William Parker- Compassion Seizes Bed-Stuy. Sounds like it was recorded in a warehouse with the mike 100 yards away.
Art Ensemble of Chicago- & CT- Thelonious Sphere Monk: Dreaming of the Masters, Vol. 2.
Dave Douglas- Sanctuary. I've tried hard to like it but no go.
Willem Breuker- Bob's Gallery. Way below par for WM. Even worse, the only track I liked turned out to be nearly identical to a track on Gil Evans- Out of the Cool.In order:
1. I hate to agree with Scott Yanow & Uli over you but...
2. You might be right on the sound; subject to check
3. A relisten is called for but I remember being somewhat disappointed
4. I like this a lot but I might be in a minority
5. I'm going to relisten to this but I think you're just out and out wrong here.

[Gordon B]

In order:
1. I hate to agree with Scott Yanow & Uli over you but...
2. You might be right on the sound; subject to check
3. A relisten is called for but I remember being somewhat disappointed
4. I like this a lot but I might be in a minority
5. I'm going to relisten to this but I think you're just out and out wrong here.

Some of my disappointment in "Bob's Gallery" was a result of loving "In Holland" on Bvhaast and "Kollektief" on About Time. I also have a great, unreleased live date from the Village Gate on 10/16/84.

I'm covered on the William Parker. Walt doesn't like it either.

[Noj]

Bob James PLAYIN' HOOKY/Grover Washington, Jr. SOULFUL STRUT--Forgot to send in the music club cards specifying to NOT to send me both of these coasters. Used CD stores won't give me a dime for them, and actually made me keep them when I offered them for free.

Warner Brothers: The Best Of Joe Sample--Far from Joe's best, this is some really mediocre stuff. I hate "Best ofs." I used to buy them when I was starting out, but since figuring out they usually don't necessarily give an accurate representation of any given artist's abilities...

Epic: Best Of Tower Of Power--Huh? Um, no. That's not what I heard on my friend's cool records.

Elektra: The Essential Dr. John--No it isn't.

RCA: The Jimmy Castor Bunch-16 Slabs Of Funk--OK, but this Bunch had better slabs of funk.

BMG: The Brecker Brothers VOLUME 1--Yawn.

Bobbie Humphrey SATIN DOLL--I keep it for "Ladies' Day" which I think stands up on its own. However, I'm one who likes all the funky Mizzell stuff, scoff though the jazz purists may. That said this album pretty much sucks.

Gil Evans Orchestra PLAYS THE MUSIC OF JIMI HENDRIX--I'm a huge Jimi fan, yet this is unlistenable. Not sure how they managed to do that. What were they hearing?

I'm sure I have more. I should try to sell some of this crap.
:D

[jmje]

Not to beat a dead horse, but i have to agree with some of the prior comments on Eugene Chadbourne. I've probably purchased a dozen of his recordings over the years, and quicky got rid of all but two (old vynl). He's like the Residents - they seem wierd and interesting, and consistently get great reviews, but in the end the recordings are tedious and annoying, for the most part. Other disappointments:
- Meeting at Offsite, Improvised Music from Japan label; I like a lot of Japanese free music but this is way too quiet;
- Loren Mazzacane Conners, the Little Match Girl (cold & depressing);
- Ken Vandemark/Joe Morris/Hans Poppel, Like Rays; great musicians on a bad day.

[Captain Hate]

Ken Vandemark/Joe Morris/Hans Poppel, Like Rays; great musicians on a bad day.Nice catch on that one; I'd forgotten how bad it was. And I gave it PLENTY of chances.

I too am immune to the appeal of the Residents. It's like an inside fucking joke.

[walto]

"I'm covered on the William Parker. Walt doesn't like it [Something or other about Bed-Sty] either."

Sorry, bro, can't help you on that one: never heard it.

[Gordon B]

"I'm covered on the William Parker. Walt doesn't like it [Something or other about Bed-Sty] either."

Sorry, bro, can't help you on that one: never heard it.

OOPS! it's Sunrise in The Tone World! My error. Remember when we used to discuss WP? I loved Peach Orchard but you didn't like it until I made you realize that it was Sunrise not Peach that you heard and thought was bad. At least, that's my recollection. Now the shoe's on the other foot because I confused two titles.

ATTN: CAPTAIN HATE. Compassion Seizes Bed-Stuy is a 4.5*/5 record in my book. It's Sunrise in a Tone World that sounds awful, IMO.

[Deke]

I've heard a lot of bad jazz in my time, both from my father's collection (He was a completist), and stuff that I bought simply because it might be good (Sometimes it wasn't).

The thing is, I can't remember what any of it was. I don't see the point of wasting memory on remembering stuff that I didn't like, when I have quite enough trouble just remembering lyrics! :(

[Groovehigh]

THE GIL EVANS ORCHESTRA PLAYS THE MUSIC OF JIMI HENDRIX

I always liked that Cd A LOT!

but maybe I haven't listened to Jimi Hendrix that much..

[Richardo Caerleoni]

A Chet Baker CD I picked up in Paris - "Chet plays the Standards" from c. 1955 orig. on Barkley. One neat version of Summertime and the rest is Chet deadpan (or stone dead) by the numbers. Although the French pianist is good. I keep it for that reason (and sentimentality) only. Someone should start a thread on "who has made the most consistantly bad albums"...OK, Chet needed the money but....

Art Pepper - "Amongst Friends" - this was raved about when it came out after Art's "comeback"- it has Russ Freeman and Frank Butler but the bass is way overamplified (it sounds "elastic")* and its a boring mess.

*In fact anything I have with an overamplified bass...this seemed to be a fashion in the 70s/80s...hated Dexter Gordon's "Homecoming" for the same reason.

A Von Freeman CD on Nessa...out of tune piano...another hate...if someone sets up a studio recording date, surely the can tune/buy a decent piano? Obviously not.

Another thread - although prob already done - which label had the best recorded sound in the 50s/60s?..usually Bluenote, but Contemporary were often warmer. Some of the Atlantic jazz albums (despite or because of Tom Dowd) sound like they were recorded on a kid's cassette recorder.