The Ratings Guide Poll

[crawjo]

I'm interested to know if people use either of the two major jazz album ratings guides in helping them to make their selections. Also, I'd be interested to know if you've found that you generally agree with the ratings, or have often found that the guide's rating for a particular album was too high or too low. Details please! Share your experiences.

[Sergio Zamora]

I use AMG online to find information and just to mess around (you know, find albums by sidemen, similar recordings, etc), but I'm cautious about paying too much heed to the reviews and especially the ratings. Whatever you do, don't trust those Olewnick reviews.

I have yet to purchase or read the Penguin. I should just get it, but I haven't.

[stonemonkts]

I've been a loyal reader of the Penguin Guide from day one. I was actually thinking of recommending it to you, Crawjo. It's been indispensable in terms of exposure to new artists, and of course helping point one towards the better recordings by each. I would say I agree with them approx. 75% of the time, which I think is pretty good. There was a time when I would buy any 4 star CD from the guide, but now I do a bit more research before pulling the trigger. I also enjoy their style quite a bit.

AMG is indispensable as a database, as Sergio pointed out. I use AMG online all the time to check for discographies, dates, sidemen, etc and so on. I also do not put a great deal of faith in their ratings, but it depends on the writer.

Alldirect.com has the best prices for the Penguin Guide if you choose to buy it online. In any case, you must get it. Trust me on this one.

[J.A.W.]

I've been a loyal reader of the Penguin Guide from day one. I was actually thinking of recommending it to you, Crawjo. It's been indispensable in terms of exposure to new artists, and of course helping point one towards the better recordings by each. I would say I agree with them approx. 75% of the time, which I think is pretty good. There was a time when I would buy any 4 star CD from the guide, but now I do a bit more research before pulling the trigger. I also enjoy their style quite a bit.

AMG is indispensable as a database, as Sergio pointed out. I use AMG online all the time to check for discographies, dates, sidemen, etc and so on. I also do not put a great deal of faith in their ratings, but it depends on the writer.

Alldirect.com has the best prices for the Penguin Guide if you choose to but it online. In any case, you must get it. Trust me on this one.

I wholeheartedly second the recommendation of the Penguin Guide. There'll be a new edition later this year.

[kenny weir]

I use the Penguin and AMG (at work, online) on a daily basis and would, I suspect, be quite lost without them.

My usage of the Penguin has changed, though. I don't use it as a buying guide, and I'm not really interesed in the star system they use. I'm far more interested in their prose, and the judgments, comparisons, insights and humor found therein.

[bostontricky]

I've been interested in the word "consensus" ever since I first heard it when I was 8 or 9, so I guess it's not surprising that I consult both fairly often. I am afflicted with the collector's mentality, so I tracked down all the Penguin "crowns" three or four years ago as a quick way of broadening my jazz collection.

What I would recommend to all in addition to both works is Max Harrison's (et al) two volume The Essential Jazz Recordings. EJR cites 500 (more or less) albums over the course of the two volumes, and provide a fairly lengthy review of each; many reviews in the second volume run six or eight pages. Some of the selections are admittedly arbitary, but like the Penguin crowns, also provide a very broad selection of material. The first volume could stand some reworking; I think the material was still organized by LP in the reissued version.

I'd love to put together a website devoted to this book, perhaps some (very) brief commentary as well as citing CD reissues of the works from the first volume. Someone has done the same for Len Lyons 101 Best Jazz Albums, and EJR would provide a more formidable challenge.

But I digress.

AMG seems to have some holes in its database, but I realize that is partially because PJG only cites works in print: can Oly enlighten us as to how certain JCers with too much time on their hands could contribute to AMG, at least as far as providing information for certain artists?

[Nate Dorward]

The ratings by Yanow, Chadbourne, Olewnick & a few others are fine on AMG; but there are also a lot of loose cannons, & it's increasingly useless as a review resource for free jazz stuff because most of that's now handled by the cretinous Thom Jurek. But as a database for personnel, tunes, &c it's great, though it does have its inaccuracies.

The Penguin Guide is still great stuff, despite a few quirks (in particular, while the four-star ratings are usually reliable, the "crowns" are uselessly arbitrary; & the current edition has a typo that afflicts many of the entries: ***(*) sometimes is a typo for **(*)....!). Unlike AMG its reviews & ratings are the result of collaboration, which helps, I think. It's also consistently readable.

[Pete C]

Never.

[Dan G]

The first Penguin guide was very important to me, as it was my first time hearing about a lot of European music like Parker & Brotzmann & ICP, etc, labels like FMP and Intakt and so on - what I predominantly listen to now.

I have all 6 eds of Penguin, but find now that I use them to help me decide what to listen to more than what to buy. I scan through one, look for interesting reviews, then listen to the albums.

As for buying - I'm both a completist and an experimenter, so I really don't care what others say about things. I just need to know they exist! The monthly update at Peter Stubley's EFI site is required reading, the verge mailout, this site, etc help me plan my month's purchases.

[Frisco]

Never.

Yeah, Pete! I find the whole idea of ratings ridiculous. Like someone has the ultimate word on what a record is worth? I've used artists guides like "The Rough Guide" and other encyclopedia types to get background on artists, but not rating guides. Just tell me about a record and describe it to me. Don't give me a pretentious number.

[lazarus]

I use AMG more than Penguin. Penguin are much to selective. A lot of essential recordings are missing only because there are no recent cd-issues on the english market.
For example they only list three (!!!!!!!!!!!) titles by Albert Ayler in the latest edition. Ridiculous !!!!
In the second edition of AMG-jazz they list and rate twentythree titles by Ayler.
I want a guide who lists ALL essential recordings by an artist.

[moneyp]

The Penguin Guide has clued me in to dozens of artists I may not have otherwise heard of. Not only that, but I like it when people write well about the stuff that I like, and the Penguin guys write very well, in my opinion. To me, they're an informed opinion, much like some of the writers on AMG and the members of this board.

[lazarus]

I agree with Mone that the Penguin guide is well-written and that they often gives attention to lesser known artists. It´s a good read but you need a complement because of it´s policy to only list currently in-print cd´s that have british distribution.
Jazz- collectors buys a lot of imports, oop-cd´s or vinyl in second-hand shops.

[Gordon B]

I bought a lot of great music after reading about the artists/albums first through the Penguin Guide. However, I realized after buying the 6th edition, that I've reached the stage of severly diminished returns. Thus, I recommend it for a relatively new listener, such as Crawjo, but question how much value Sergio will get from it. I discovered artists like Kryztof Komeda, Ganelin Trio, Gianluigi Trovesi, Mike Osborne, Dave Burrell, Horace Tapscott, John Lindberg, Tom Varner, and many others through their 4* reviews in the Penguin Guide.

AMG, especially the print version, used to be terrible but the quality of reviews have improved tremendously in the last couple of years. It's handy to use online and by now I have a "book" on many of the reviewers, which I use to take some reviews seriously and some not at all.

I voted for Penguin but AMG (online version) has a higher marginal value for me going forward.

The Penguin Guide is released every even numbered December in Great Britain and other parts of Europe. It's US release date is in the spring of the following year. I bought the last two editions from Amazon.co.uk.

I have a complete set of six PG's. The first edition is particularly worth tracking down used because it's the only edition that rates lps.

[Chris D]

I agree with the consensus that Penguin is good for getting somewhat of a read on players one might not have come across before. It does tend to undervalue many outstanding straightahead players like Kenny Dorham, and the duo's pseudopsychology can be strained. What they say about Sonny Clark, for instance, borders on the criminal.

[Brian Olewnick]

I've never used either. In fact, before being asked to write for it, I only vaguely knew of the existence of AMG. Since the Net, I've far more counted on the opinions of trusted contributors from various sites, first rec.music.bluenote and rec.music.classical.contemporary on Usenet, later sites like this one. I reallt only read other AMG reviews when I check to see if a disc I own needs one. If it's already been done (chances are by Couture, Jurek or Chadbourne), I usually read it to see how close or far off the opinion is from my own.

When the most recent print version of the Jazz Guide appeared, I checked it out in the store and was pleased to see that AALY was listed first and three out of the four reviews for their albums were mine..... :)

BT, you can try to e-mail Joslyn Layne (at joslay@allmusic.com) to see if they're accepting any new writers, but for the last year and a half or so, they've gotten very, very stingy on how many review approvals they give. Presumably they're cutting back expenses (they pay $15 a review), though I've never received any official word.

[Gary Sisco]

I read both but don't use either as buying guides. I use them more as research (sidemen, dates, etc) guides, and the Penguin as a browse read. Like Gordon, I've reached the point of diminishing returns so probably won't buy the next Penguin.

[steve(thelil)]

There are just too many entries in AMG that just give an impression of the artist generally and some player information from the disc's liner notes. To me it suggests that there are many reviews where the reviewer didn't listen to the album immediately before (or while) writing the review.

And to have star rating for thousands of discs where there is NO text review is to practically admit same.

If you had time to listen to a whole disc, you have time to write 2 sentences.

[Gordon B]

There are just too many entries in AMG that just give an impression of the artist generally and some player information from the disc's liner notes. To me it suggests that there are many reviews where the reviewer didn't listen to the album immediately before (or while) writing the review.

And to have star rating for thousands of discs where there is NO text review is to practically admit same.

If you had time to listen to a whole disc, you have time to write 2 sentences.

Thelil, many of the early entries in the AMG were just as you described. However, most of the recent entries are pretty detailed. Brian knows better than me, but there appears to be a good supply of knowledgable music listeners who know how to write and are willing to diligently listen to new cds and write detailed reviews for a per piece salary of $15.

[Stuckinagroove]

AMG- one of my favorite websites. I like that they review jazz from small labels, seems as if you can find info on the most obscure musician. If someone tells me of a musician I haven't heard of, I always check them out on AMG.

I don't necessarily pay attention to the star rating, but I find a lot of the reviews insightful. Best online music source IMHO.

[gnhrtg]

I buy too many discs as it is and so would prefer guides that err on the side of omission. However, I find most ratings on AMG to be too high, both the stars and the praise in the commentary. What I would really like is multiple reviewers on the same album - and for that I usually ask around here. However the coverage of AMG, on-line, *is* extensive and I would almost always check there before making an order (whether I actually take into account what is said has a lot to do with both the reviewer and the genre/label in question).

[Brian Olewnick]

I've mentioned this before, but for those who aren't aware, the star ratings at AMG have to do only with a given musician's oeuvre and how an individual release "rates" within that group. ie, the best Coltrane album and the best Josh Grogan album should each receive 5 stars.

There are, imho, way too many "reviews" on the site that, essentially, consist merely of a list of tracks and personnel. I've replaced a few of them.

[gnhrtg]

I've mentioned this before, but for those who aren't aware, the star ratings at AMG have to do only with a given musician's oeuvre and how an individual release "rates" within that group. ie, the best Coltrane album and the best Josh Grogan album should each receive 5 stars.


In fact, that is precisely why I think that many ratings, on the average, are too high. If it were an abstract and absolute rating, the merits of which are a different matter, then having as many 4 star and above ratings might have made more sense.

By the way Brian, FWIW, I've found most of what I've seen of your non-eai reviews exemplary (as for eai, I don't yet have much to weigh against the opinions of more informed parties such as yourself).

[Brian Olewnick]

Thanks very much. Appreciate it.

[Bruce Lindfield]

I have bought the last few editions of the Penguin guide and find it is particularly useful to us in the UK. I have given up on trying to get imports, as inevitably when I find something on an internet seller's site like Amazon - they delay and delay,saying it is usally available within 4-6 weeks or something, then say it is unavailable - huge waste of time!! :mad:

Besides there are so many Jazz CDs to buy, that I don't think I'll ever exhaust the Penguin guide and I do like the way it is arranged - so I can find all recordings by certain bass players for example!!

I do find their ratings very useful and the reviews very helpful and readable - when I started buying Jazz CDs I bought about 4 or 5 different, similar (though smaller) guides, but now don't bother with anything except the net and the Penguin guide!

So - how would you start buying Keith Jarrett CDs, to take one example, without using something like this?

[gnhrtg]

So - how would you start buying Keith Jarrett CDs, to take one example, without using something like this?

So is this hypothetical or do you want some recommendations? Silly question I'm asking as the answer is the same in both cases, start a thread in Speak Out and see what you get. The laborious part, of course, is figuring out who knows what they're talking about or less offensively whose opinion is more informed. For that you would have to read around a little to find out posters' tastes and relative areas of interest/expertise.

(For classical music, for instance, I use the rmcr quite a lot and for the classical and romantic eras especially, hold in high regard Simon Roberts' opinions.)

[Bruce Lindfield]

Much easier to browse through the Penguin Guide and pick ones that have supporting players you know as good, have good ratings and from reading the reviews, sound like you would like them!! :)

[gnhrtg]

Much easier to browse through the Penguin Guide and pick ones that have supporting players you know as good, have good ratings and from reading the reviews, sound like you would like them!! :)

Easier it is. I don't, actually.

[shrugs]

I have 3 Penguin guides and they are all in storage.

[Thelonious Nick]

I've never used a guide. Although one might be useful, I really don't have a need for one. I have no problems buying more than enough jazz albums based on what I've heard on the radio (I'm lucky enough to live in the DC area, where WPFW plays real jazz), recommendations from friends, or just what looks interesting in the record store or on Amazon. And of course, just in the three weeks I've been looking at this site, I've bought a couple CDs from highly recommended albums I've seen here.

[Al in NYC]

I use AMG as a reference a LOT, but I find the inaccuracies and duplications I often discover to be quite aggravating. I have the first 3 Penguins, but I began to be driven nuts by the incompleteness of their entires for US readers as well as their snide remarks about any jazz that's funky or even just soulful. I go pretty much by wits and knowledge for purchases, and for older recordings I will often just call up my dad if I have any doubts.

[SilentKnowledge]

I use AMG as a reference a LOT, but I find the inaccuracies and duplications I often discover to be quite aggravating.

I feel the same way. It occurs a bit, but it is a good reference. I discovered many jazz/improvisational musicans due to AMG! :D

[Gordon B]

http://images-eu.amazon.com/images/P/0141014164.02.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

Amazon UK reports a release date of October 1. Amazon Canada is releasing it on November 1. Amazon US probably won't get it until April, if past experience is repeated.

The price to Americans from the two Amazons was so close (in USD) that I went ahead and ordered the UK edition, because it will be out first.

I don't get nearly as much out of the Penguin Guide as I did a few years ago, but I've got every edition and don't want to miss one.

[GodSpeliZed]

I trust more in writers I know very well (i.e. Enrico Bettinello, who writes about improv on Blow Up.... thanks to this guy I bought my copy of "Fanfare for the Warriors" by the Art Ensemble of Chicago, and after reading a well writed interview with Roscoe Mitchell who intrigued me very much, about 3 years ago). Radio helps me sometimes. Our third national radio channel sparks a jazz concert at least 1 time at week. Other 'independent' radio channels helps me with 'alt rock'. But I like reviews. A good article, maybe an exhaustive interview or a retrospective article with a well written discography (with ratings....) is the best wat to attract my attention.
I also like some 'crossing researches' across the net, and AMG is one of the best, with All About Jazz (there's an Italian version with a section for 'other sounds', i.e. not strictly jazz...).
Another font for me, often, are even musicians (when they talk about their influences etc.).

[Gary Sisco]

I'm skipping the new ones this time around. I hardly ever buy anything based on reviews (except for reviews here, and very occasionally in The Wire or STN) and for research (dates, sidemen, etc) I can look up what I need at allmusic. The time I used to spend flipping idly through them while listening is now spent doing mag reading, so ... I guess I have no use for guides anymore.

[Sand]

I'll just take a look around the corner. Ambigious, mind you.

[frankiepop]

Radio helps me sometimes. Our third national radio channel sparks a jazz concert at least 1 time at week.



are they available over the web godspell? if so, web address?

[Enforcer]

Review guides are not my thing.

Having said that, you can discover new artists using a giant collection like the Penguin. I haven't seen one in years, but I always liked the coverage they gave artists from the UK, Europe, etc. The star system is ridiculous, but the text of the reviews is almost always entertaining, even if their evaluations are completely off the mark.

[GodSpeliZed]

are they available over the web godspell? if so, web address?

Go to http://www.radio.rai.it/.
On the extreme right, if you click on 'Radio Tre' (under 'ASCOLTA') you can listen. For a list of the concerts, go here (http://www.radio.rai.it/radio3/cartellone/index.cfm).

[frankiepop]

thanx

[Gordon B]

Review guides are not my thing.

Having said that, you can discover new artists using a giant collection like the Penguin. I haven't seen one in years, but I always liked the coverage they gave artists from the UK, Europe, etc. The star system is ridiculous, but the text of the reviews is almost always entertaining, even if their evaluations are completely off the mark.

I dunno. If they hadn't given "Astigmatic" a crown how many of us would have bought it and spread the news of its greatness to others? They also brought the Armstrong JSP's to the attention of people who might normally not buy it.

[Enforcer]

Gordon,

I can appreciate what you're saying. When I first picked up a Penguin ten years ago or so, it turned me on to some very hip stuff, particularly the European scene that I was largely ignorant of. But to put it in perspective, for every crown someone buys, there's probably another ten recordings that got undeservedly low (IMO) ratings that people will avoid. I can't count how many recordings I consider among the finest in the music that got three and a half stars, or something goofy like that.

I guess it's neither here nor there, because most of their recs are very good indeed, and hearing good music is better than not. But they undervalue some seminal recordings and people take that sh** to heart more than they should.

[stonemonkts]

I can't count how many recordings I consider among the finest in the music that got three and a half stars, or something goofy like that.


I'm listening to one right now, Braxton Quintet (Basel) 1977.

Penguin only gives this 3 stars, but to my ears it is 4 stars easy. In fact, I would almost rank it alongside the Dortmund concert. Amazing music. The rhythm section almost reminds me of a reincarnation of the Hancock-Carter-Williams dynamic, except with this recording you get Muhal Richard Abrams-Mark Helias-Charles Shaw laying the foundations for some of the best shit I've ever heard from George Lewis and Braxton on record.

The second track, Composition 69 N/G is astounding. Talk about drama and build, and solos that just knock your block off.

[John L]

The Penguin Guide is a fun read. The authors put some thought and effort into it, cover a lot of music, and give a somewhat coherent and consistent view of jazz history on record. That said, I disagree with them at least as much as I agree with them on their rankings. So I don't use it as a guide.

AMG is even more valuable as a database resource. The reviews are highly variable, and usually rather uninformative (I would even calll Thom Jurek disinformative.) If they can get more people like Brian aboard, it could turn into something much greater from that point of view.

[sonic1]

I use both penquin and AMG, though admittedly a lot less than I used to. In both I have found little tiny mistakes, nothing to write home about (recording dates, etc). Both have huge gaping holes. And both by definition limit themselves to exclude newer types of improvised musics. I concur that many of the critics opinions in both books are less than desireable. I ignore that shit anyway.

I read Coda, Wire, for new stuff, and of course the ol' JC.

I have also frequented paristransatlantic, bagatellen, et al.

They are resources, and realizing this, one can expect they will have limitations.

[Steve Reynolds]

but the Basel rhythm section is a bit messy save for Muhal, don't you think?

a very young Helias with a drummer whoi isn't in Altschul's league

still a fine recording - as the 70's Braxton music is my favorite period for him

[Steve Reynolds]

Penguin is clearly the best guide because it conveys the personality and opinions of only 2 people - once familiar with them the reader knows their biases - and as Jon said on the other thread, their comparisons within a singular artists work are helpful and usually pretty accurate

and they usually dod good job of getting inside the music - none of the typical "highly recommended" diatribes ad nauseum

plus they can be a howl to read

[stonemonkts]

Steve - I was so enthralled with the music overall I didn't notice if they were messy or not. I thought Shaw did a good job in spite of playing almost exactly like Tony Williams, and I thought Helias played some very good arco bass for a stretch...and Muhal was great in that concert. The band just worked for me. Sure, I'd rather have Holland and Altschul alongside Abrams, but I enjoy Basel nonetheless. If you have it, dig it out and spin track 2.

[Steve Reynolds]

just listened to it one more time


Helias is pretty strong - good energy - but Lewis is not in form near Dortmund, and Brax is in decent form, but again not quite at the very high level of his playing on the classic Dortmund date - but Muhal is the highlight - swings, crashes and burns the piano for the whole set

[Gordon B]

just listened to it one more time


Helias is pretty strong - good energy - but Lewis is not in form near Dortmund, and Brax is in decent form, but again not quite at the very high level of his playing on the classic Dortmund date - but Muhal is the highlight - swings, crashes and burns the piano for the whole set

Dortmund was one of their larger errors, 3.5* for one of the *Greatest* jazz records ever made. I'd rate it #1 of small group jazz records that are placed in the category of "free jazz."

[MRS]

I'm reading about restaurants/inns of the Rhineland and come upon this gem which instantly recalls Cook & Morton (Im Bären in Bonn):

"The food is hearty Rhinelander cuisine, including everything from simple wursts with potatoes to more elaborate steaks with bearnaise sauce and salad. Service is bustling, matter-of-fact, and efficient."

[BlueMiles]

I don't know if this has been discussed, but AMG (online) went through a change not too far back. I'm less fond of it now. The main thing is that I have not found a way to get a listing of sideman appearances. Knowing the sideman dates is essential for the jazz lover.

[BlueMiles]

Also, much as I like Penguin, they are quite biased (and incomplete) in regard to much American jazz. For isntance, I'm a big fan of Kenny Burrell, so I was miffed by their off-the-wall and disparaging comments about some of his music.

[stonemonkts]

I don't know if this has been discussed, but AMG (online) went through a change not too far back. I'm less fond of it now. The main thing is that I have not found a way to get a listing of sideman appearances. Knowing the sideman dates is essential for the jazz lover.

Sideman appearances are under the "credits" tab of the artist's front page. I've just checked on Billy Higgins, and there are six pages of dates listed.

[Darkoath]

I also use a third guide... the Musichound Jazz, The Essential Album Guide. Learn allot from all three of these guides. They are a great tool.

-Darkoath-

[Capt.W./TX.]

I have been buying jazz albums for nearly a half-century.

I used to love Down Beat in the 50's & 60's; a good review by Ira Gitler, Martin Williams or Leonard Feather actually meant the album in question was worth checking out.

I don't trust Down Beat or JazzIs reviews anymore; for that matter, I no longer subscribe to either. Both have gone the way of fashion, lifestyle and decorator magazines. Anyway, I don't particularly dig paying for mags that are 65-75% ads. And I'm not the only one who suspects that either mag would print a negative review of a new CD from a big corporate client with a big print budget.

I DO subscribe to Cadence, Coda & Signal-To-Noise. Any new CD that gets a favorable write-up in all three goes on my 'wish list'.

The NPR outlet down here (KNTU-FM) is, for my taste, too conservative. Most of what they play I wouldn't buy (things like Hammond B-3, tenor & trumpet groups playing "Milestones" or shuffle blues vamps, very clean-sounding big bands that are no more than neo-Kenton/Herman/Ferguson clones and lotsa neo-bebop!). So much for buying something because I heard a cut on the radio and liked it!

[To their credit, they do occasionally play the ORIGINAL good stuff. But, after all, this is Dallas/Fort Worth-Bush Country! I suppose I should be grateful there's any jazz on the air at all!]

I've never seen the Penguin Guide, and am less than impressed with the jazz section of AMG.

My problem with most of what passes for reviewing anymore; at best, these people are fans who have journalism experience and are willing to write for what the publications are willing to pay. We don't have any more Leonard Feathers, Ira Gitlers, and Martin Williams(es) coming into the biz. Even if we did, they'd probably have difficulty finding gigs (too highbrow for the target audience, maybe?).

[Surfer]

Morton and Cook (Penguin) is the only guide I use. They are admittedly biased towards British free-jazz, and once you realize that, you can take their reviews of Oxley and Guy and Evan Parker for what its worth (not that they're not important figures!).

Penguin Guide is a jazz institution. I have the 3rd and 5th editions. The earlier is very useful as it has many recordings that are now out-of-print, technically. Such as Koglmann's entire catalogue.

AMG is useful, in my opinion, only as a reference guide. There's really no comparison between the two. One is readable, the other is not. Every serious jazz fan should at least LOOK at Penguin, whether or not you agree with their reviews, for the level and consistent quality of writing by Morton and Cook.

[JamesH]

I've purchased 5 Penquin guides and still have 3. My 1st purchase of the guide was essential. Now I just buy them because I'm curious about their views on new releases/reissues. At some point soon I'll stop buying them.

[RedJazz]

Decades ago I used to read downbeat or the various high fidelity magazines for record reviews. I'd actually like recommendations for a good narrative history of jazz over the past 35 years or so. I've read a few brief ones, but they seem to have almost nothing to do with the current tastes of contemporary jazz fans I run across.

[Steve Reynolds]

get the Penguin Guide, redjazz

[Freetoojazz]

I've got the 6th edition of the Penguin Guide. Each time I was interested about a review, i want the disc. But maybe is easy to find good records jazz in the USA or in Europa. It is a little more complicated in Canada to find goods records in the store. It was so fustrating!

I consult now the All Music Guide Jazz online. It's up to date faster.

If the Peinguin Guide to jazz on cd 7th ed. was online, I will like to use both.

[Xavier]

I've used them both though I prefer the Penguin. I think the All Music Guide generally is not critical enough and rates high. The Penguin is more sophisticated with a wider range and deeper appreciation of different genres from dixie to avant-garde. The All Music Guide often seems to me to be more middle of the road and too easily pleased. That's my impression anyway.

[JamesH]

I've used them both though I prefer the Penguin. I think the All Music Guide generally is not critical enough and rates high. The Penguin is more sophisticated with a wider range and deeper appreciation of different genres from dixie to avant-garde. The All Music Guide often seems to me to be more middle of the road and too easily pleased. That's my impression anyway.

You hit the nail on the head.

[amfortas]

I have both and prefer the Penguin, though i consult both on a regular basis; one thing i dont like about the penguin is the way a great many OOP and vinyl discs are cut from the newer editions.

[Felix]

I use the Penguin on a regular basis (Penguins, actually, as I have six of 'em). I used AMG online a lot in the past, but less so now (esp. since I can discuss records here at JC). I try to get as many different guides as I can (I also have Len Lyons' old book 101 Best Jazz Albums, The Blackwell Guide to Recorded Jazz, Max Harrison's The Essential Jazz Records (both volumes),...). I like to compare what different authors think, and not limit myself to one opinion (and most of the time I'll form my own opinion when I hear the album, anyway). The Penguin remains the most wide-ranging jazz guide I know of, and having past issues including OOP albums (and even LPs) is quite helpful (even if it takes quite a lot of shelf space...).

[Noj]

I use AMG for discographical info, but I get a sense of which albums I might like by the tastes of certain posters on various jazz bulletin boards.

[jazzbluescat]

We don't need no stinking ratings guides.

[Felix]

For those who use it, Penguin will release the Eighth edition of its Jazz Guide, apparently in October (that's the date Amazon.ca has, anyway).