The most annoying things in jazz music

[redmango7]

Thank God for modern/smooth Jazz!

[Pete C]

The bowed cymbal.

[Vince Kargatis]

This reminds me of the classic Joe Queenan Spy Magazine rant Admit it! It Sucks! Part 1: Jazz. Totally hilarious, but unfortunately, I can't find the full text anywhere on the web. :-/

Found some excerpts (http://groups.google.com/groups?threadm=2g0rb5%244a2%40darkstar.UCSC.EDU&rnum=1) though:

"With one or two exceptions - Coltrane, Miles - jazz is an art form that has always been dominated by fat old men in sunglasses and ridiculous suits playing songs with names like "Goodbye Pork Pie Hat" and "Epistrophy." And talk about role models: The most famous jazz musician of them all was a tubby old trumpet player who ended up singing "Hello, Dolly!" with Streisand while wiping his forehead with a soggy hankerchief like some lard-butt umpire at Wrigley Field on Nickel Beer Night. The second-most famous jazz musician was a self-anointed duke who wrote ghastly songs like "Satin Doll." The third-most-famous jazz musician was an emaciated junkie who used to play with his back to the audience and occasionally sprayed the folks in the front row while spitting into his instrument. The list of deadbeats goes on and on. Stan Getz? Junkie. Chet Baker? Junkie. Charlie Parker? Junkie. Oscar Peterson? Fat, old, boring ivory-tinkler."

"Jazz sucks."
"If it.s not Sonny Sharrock and Sonny Stitt honoring the late, great Sun Ra at the Knitting Factory, it's Donald Byrd honoring Charlie Byrd at Birdland. Nameswise, jazz is, like, Elmersville."
"And [rock stars] never, ever call themselves things like Michael Stipe and the Rock Messengers."
"How about all that Claude Bolling jazz-meets-classical horseshit?"

Ha!

[Armando]

Recent Down Beat covers

[Tanager]

Ah, flamebait. Yummy.

If I had to respond seriously, maybe CD prices and the paucity of shows in central NC.

[redmango7]

Vince--Very funny! I'm glad you guys have a sense of humor and can actually make fun of things in the jazz world. Cheers.

[Bruce Lindfield]

I'm not sure what any of he poll options really mean or that I would vote for any of them! :confused:

But what annoys me most are the audiences usually!!

So - people who talk loudly trough the bass solo or even worse go to the bar!!

People who come and stand or sit right in front of you, after the gig has started and strike up loud conversations, in quiet passages!! :mad:

Or worse, people who complain loudly that Jazz is too dominated by white middle-aged people and only young cool black guys can really do it justice!!

[graypencil]

recorded sounds continually being referred to "jazz" that aren't ..for pure marketing reasons:

to wit: curly haired saxophone owners and blond , piano tweedling ex- television emcees ... being found in the jazz bin in record stores ..

[redmango7]

Ha ha. Funny stuff, indeed.

[frankpop1]

all these damn jazz singers vamping over the same dumb ass standards again and again. get a life!

[clinthopson]

Drum solos over 8 bars
Bass solos over 8 bars
Bands that don't start on time
Leaders who don't announce tunes
'Traneist players who think that repititous, discordant playing is music
Bad pianos in clubs
Bad sound balance

[graypencil]

singers:

who try to "scat" ..and can't ..

who have no sense of pacing ..and will do five dead slow ballads ( OR fast tunes ) in a row ..

clubowners who refuse to even minimally treat their clubs acoustically ..creating that wonderful "train depot" echoing effect.

[Scott Dolan]

The Hammond B3. The only instrument in Jazz to have been created by Satan himself. When I hear it I'm not sure whether I'm about to stand for the national anthem that precedes the drop of the puck, or whether I'm about to watch a really horrible childrens show from the 60's. Is there an instrument that sounds more hokey than this? Am I supposed to take it's sound seriously?

[Jason Bivins]

Scott, not even Larry Young? Tony Williams Lifetime, dude!

[jamieb]

Everyone is welcome to their own opinion, but....
Larry Young, Jimmy Smith, Mel Rhyne, et al can hardly be compared to ball park organists. Yikes! Hokey?! I think not.

As far as annoying things in jazz, I hate to beat a dead horse, but bad non-swinging singers who write their own lyrics to bebop tunes.

[john williams]

Singers who try to scat and can!

[jacman]

hilarious! i think i'm gonna like this place. :-)

[graypencil]

at blowing sessions:

horn players who, lined up six to ten deep on the stand, insist upon playing around eight to ten choruses EACH ..then decide to let the thoroughly wiped out rhythm section do it's solo turns ..and THEN:

..wanna play ANOTHER four or five choruses of fours with the poor grossly fatigued drummer ..who's been playing steadily at full tilt for something like twenty , thirty minutes ..

...and usually on either Cherokee or molto swifto blues tunes ..

..And , I think I can speak for all the drummers in the world who have been put in this situation during their careers..

[Stormcrow]

Piano-playing pop divas who call themselves vocalists but really have no voice at all...

the outrageous price of CDs...

the fact that the pop culture labels any non-classical instrumental music as jazz whether is is or not...

people who say Ella could not put any emotion into what she sang ;)

[mke]

Can one of the 9 people who voted for it explain to me what 'The repetitious, mind-numbing "doo-bee-doo-bee-doo" ' actually is???

[SinginSumo]

People that categorize albums of pop instrumentals as so-called "smooth jazz."

[BeBop]

Jazz 'Fans'

We're a small segment of society. For the most part, we care deeply about jazz. Yet we bicker among ourselves so much. No one needs to like it all, but it would be nice if we could acknowledge that jazz has taken many forms over the last century-or-so, and will take on some new ones in the future.

Enough preaching. Off the soapbox, BeBop.

[Pete C]

Originally posted by mke
Can one of the 9 people who voted for it explain to me what 'The repetitious, mind-numbing "doo-bee-doo-bee-doo" ' actually is???

http://image.allmusic.com/00/amg/cov200/drc400/c475/c4753520755.jpg

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Worst thing? EASY......the "paycheck".

[graypencil]

ha ha .. very true:

in most localities, "paying jazz gig" is pretty much an oxymoron ..:D

[Groovie]

The drawings on the album covers of the Verve Diva Series of Ella, Carmen, Billie, Nina, Anita, Sarah and Dinah are a disgrace to these great artists.

[Jazzmoose]

Sax players who apparently can only play two notes over and over in their solos, but it's okay, because its free jazz and you just don't get it, dude.*






*As a relatively new poster, and an unknown factor, I should point out, and stress, that this is not an attack on free jazz. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread...

[Pete C]

Originally posted by Scott Dolan
The Hammond B3.

Too bad Jimmy Smith & Janis Joplin never recorded together. I'd love to tie Dolan down and force him to listen to it for hours on end.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/cultureshock/flashpoints/theater/images/clockwork_big.jpg

[Dibble]

Kenny G...bleugghhh...shudder..cringe

I have no idea why..just too flowery and crap..she says knowing nothing..but hey thats how I feel..its lift (elevator) music imho..but he can play his instrument..just not to my liking

skulks off..

shudder

[Nathaniel Catchpole]

Cuthbert, Grub.

[Scott Dolan]

You sick, sick bastards!!

Actually, I would readily admit that I find Janis Joplins voice to be much more pleasant than the sound of the hell sent Hammond B3.

I would gladly listen to hours of Joplin and Morrison in duet, than sit through 5 minutes of Satan's piano.

Ugh, just thinking about this shit has me craving a bit of the old ultra violence...............

[graypencil]

it just occured to me:

there is no choice button for "all Wynton Threads" as being the most
annoying thing in jazz ..

moderator ..please remedy this ..and make this my choice ..

thank youse ...

[JazzCutterBoy]

Walking basslines......I'm not a big fan of them, there's def. more creative things you can do with a bass.

The fact that recording quality sucked back in the days of Elligton, Parker and all thoose cats.

[Dibble]

Originally posted by Nathaniel Catchpole
Cuthbert, Grub.

phew glad you didnt include me...lol..not that I am very much to do with jazz

[Moe snodgrass]

The most annoying is applause after the solo. I know it's tradition but it detracts from the balance of the performance.

[Cannonade]

I'm with Moe on the applause bit. Not only does the applause get to me, but people who hoot and yell Y E A H, YOW, and all that stuff just annoy hell outta me. BRAVO is also a godawful nightmare.
Blooper

[mke]

Personally, I prefer it when I am the only person in the audience, so there are no annoying noises to contend with.

[Tanager]

Originally posted by blooper
I'm with Moe on the applause bit. Not only does the applause get to me, but people who hoot and yell Y E A H, YOW, and all that stuff just annoy hell outta me. BRAVO is also a godawful nightmare.

Personally, I love it when the audience gets into the show and cheers after tunes, but not so much after solos. I dig the hooting and yelling, personally.

[Cannonade]

I believe we were talking about 'after the solos.' Definitely distracts attention to the following portion of the tune. Maybe you just don't agree...
Blooper

[Pete C]

I like it when the crowd applauds when the player takes a breath in the middle of the solo.

[Nate Dorward]

I think that goofballs in the audience who tap, sway or clap in what they think is time (but is WAY off) are pretty annoying. Vague rhythmic gestures are fine, but if you're actually doing enough to disturb the person next to you & to boot have no sense of time then it's very irritating.

[mke]

This is why always go to concerts armed with a pistol fitted with a silencer.

[stonemonkts]

It's not only the applause after each solo I find annoying, but moreso the very fact that there's so-called "jazz" performances tailored for that very thing. Without mentioning names, at one show the central microphone was used for each solo (they took turns) and each gave you that sort of head bobbing nod while back peddaling to allow the next musician his solo.

I'm too tired to edit that sentence but you all know what I'm talking about. That sort of jazz I find dull and cookie cutter-ish. I think I am against anything which feels like a routine formula is the norm. I remember one of the things about the Greg Osby show I caught a few years ago was the music was continuous (sort of), at least as I recall one composition blended directly into the next without a definitive break. I liked that.

But I'll add my usual "still better than 99% of all other music out there".

Also, I find nothing "trivial" about terrorism so I believe those posts belong on another thread entirely.

EDIT: My early morning fog has me confusing this thread with "trivial annoyances". Whooops.

[Carlos]

Trading Fours...

Giant Steps...

Swinging Eights...

AABA...

McCoy Tyner...

Two Five One's...

Musicians who can only think in 4/4...

Musicians who think modern means playing an instrument they have not practiced in six years and trying to play the most random notes possible...

[Pete C]

Originally posted by stonemonkts
Without mentioning names,

Why not?

[mke]

Originally posted by Carlos
Swinging Eights...
Yeah, but swinging sixteenths...

[stonemonkts]

Originally posted by Pete C
Why not?

Oh, I don't know. Perhaps I feel crumby about commenting negatively on jazz musicians (unless they themselves start casting stones, I am sure you know who I refer to there).

The musicians I didn't mention are all excellent at what they do, so on the one hand, just because I find a certain aspect of the gig in question tiresome, I'd rather not say who they were since it is nothing personal against any of them, per se.

[john williams]

Keith Jarrett

[Cannonade]

I really don't understand why you are annoyed by Keith Jarrett. He does annoying things, but the man is a wonderful pianist.
Blooper

[Bill Barton]

this thread?

[James Lee]

I can handle applause between solos when it's clear that applauding isn't going to step on the next solo ---- in case of doubt I refrain from clapping. After solos during a ballad it can be a real drag; sometimes I've noticed a portion of the crowd (that portion with larger ears) beginning to applaud because they were moved by a *great* solo and immediately "back off" because they understood that clapping could ruin the magic. Not all jazz audiences are created equal. The musicians I've spoken with for the most part don't have a problem with applause between solos, although I believe that a local pianist (Mike Wofford) whom I admire greatly has actually (and very artfully) concluded brilliant solos in such a way as to discourage applause!

What kills me are the selfish mother******* who gab loudly during performances. I've confronted these boneheads, asking them why they payed a cover charge to ignore the music and ruin the experience for the other patrons. Hell --- move to the back if you're there to be part of the "jazz scene." And how about the twits who keep (bad) time by tapping their feet loudly, tapping their table loudly, or worst of all -- clinking their cocktail glasses with their ring finger. Capital punishment after a severe beating from the rest of the patrons for these morons!!!

Yeah, if it isn't obvious I'm typically annoyed most by audience (mis)behaviour.

[Sergio Zamora]

I wonder whatever happened to the initiator of this thread?

And where the hell is Gigggles?

[mke]

Originally posted by Sergio Zamora
And where the hell is Gigggles?
I miss that guy.

[T~AndrewB~Bone]

Being in High School Jazz Band...I'd have to say High Scholl Jazz Band annoys me. So much lacked talent in a group. It saddens me deeply. Especially when your rhythm section has no rhythm and you have one trumpet player a beat behind on everything and the entire saxophone section has never seen jazz music before and the bass trombone thinks he's in marching band still. GAH!!!! At least there's a couple people who know what they're doing. Doesn't totally kill it for me. Thank God for good musicians!

[trumpetschmidt]

having to play gigs with a director

the director

.....the director

lack of time

bass players that dont "feel" the music

(im in a High School Jazz band and it sucks having these things present)

[Jazzzoline]

Originally posted by Sergio Zamora
And where the hell is Gigggles?

If you're talking about Tyme, he made a few trips to China for his work. He tried to post a couple of times but the firewall didnt let him. I just learned that he accepted a permanent job in China, so...

[Peterdubya]

My most hated...
Sets where every song is head, solo,, solo, solo, solo, solo, solo, head, extra points off when the solos are in the same order (trumpet, sax, piano, bass, drums...)

[Gary Sisco]

The sqareness of the Official Jazz Presenters, Inc. (a not for profit corporation near you, somewhere).

[Jazz-in-Aust]

The two most annoying things in Jazz music...

Norah Jones

Diana Krall

[stonemonkts]

An annoyance which keeps coming up for me is when you find one or several bad vocal tracks in otherwise non-vocal boxed sets. Sometimes the vocals aren't terrible but their presence annoys me just the same. I listen to vocal jazz as a determined conscious choice, so when I wish to hear non-vocal jazz (approx. 95% of my listening is non-vocal), I DON'T WANT TO HEAR PANCHO FUCKING HAGOOD CROONING THROUGH MY SPEAKERS.

Disc 7 of the Rollins Prestige box has 2 horrible vocal tracks wedged between superb non-vocal tracks.

[JazzAt52ndStreet]

I like it when people aplause after my solo :D.

....the lack of interplay between the rhythm section and the soloist back in the be bop days.

Solos that consist of 8th note lines and....more 8th note lines.

I hate trading fours...and for the most part I hate drummers that trade fours with a horn.....give the poor guy a solo long enough to devolop just one idea :o. Horn and horn or piano is cool.

-52nd

[Archtop Wonder]

The bowed cymbal.

I was thinking more along the lines of sax wankers, like Dolphy.

[AntManBee]

Most annoying thing in jazz?

Ornette Coleman's *!?*!# violin.

[AntManBee]

And yes I know, saying that is to kick in an open door.

[stonemonkts]

I was thinking more along the lines of sax wankers, like Dolphy.

Haha. Just reading Antmanbee's posts, and couldn't help but see this one too.

He will not be missed.

[marcoturco]

there's nothing annoying about JAZZ. Nothing at all!Not in my cd collection!
Annoying are some naive players that try to play "jazz". But this is another topic.
Anyway this topic in itself was pretty annoying, sorry guys.

mt

[GodSpeliZed]

Manfred Eichmann

[Scott Dolan]

The B3.

[Khaled Ahmad]

I can't believe you guys don't like the clapping after solos, I think its disrespectful if you don't clap after a solo, it makes it seem like you weren't listening. If I play and people don't clap after my solo I feel like I didn't play good enough for them to hear anything worthwhile in my playing.

I don't know about most annoying, mostly its bad players that annoy me. I don't hear this a lot, but I don't like guitar players that play jazz in a rock/blues kind of way. Its a thin line though, I love some distortion and chorus in the tone and I love some bends and pentatonic lines, but I can't stand the players that play that way exclusively in jazz.

Oh, I just remembered the TRUE most annoying thing in jazz, the Coltrane impersonators.

[Chris A]

Diane Schuur
Flora Purim
Pretentious Marsalis charts
Kurt Elling (and other faux-retro* singers)



* ©2004 Phil Kelly

[Scott Dolan]

I can't believe you guys don't like the clapping after solos, I think its disrespectful if you don't clap after a solo,


I agree.

Sometimes I'll be listening to jam rock bands, or blues rock, what have you, and someon will pull off a smokin solo, and................nothing. Not a whistle, not a clap, not a hoot, just, nothing.

And I find myself sometimes getting irritated thinking to myself "jesus, did they just hear that shit"?!

[crawjo]

Hmmm...I think I actually do find the applause between solos to be pretty annoying. Partly because it seems to me to be pretty indiscriminate. Every solo gets an applause, even if it wasn't that good; as if it's now required to cheer any solo.

That being said, it's not that big a deal, either.

[Sergio Zamora]

Manfred Eichmann
Did you mean Manfred Eicher?

[Scott Dolan]

Hmmm...I think I actually do find the applause between solos to be pretty annoying. Partly because it seems to me to be pretty indiscriminate. Every solo gets an applause, even if it wasn't that good; as if it's now required to cheer any solo.

That being said, it's not that big a deal, either.


Ah, I disagree.

It's funny, one of the most memorable concerts I ever attended was put on by the Port Charlotte Jazz Society. Real blue hair affair. Ira Sullivan was the leader on this particular night. He played all of his instruments, and was in fine form. Had a young Trombone man from the University of Miami standing in for his regular bone guy. And this kid was terrific. His solo on Ornithology damn near brought the house down and got THE loudest and longest cheer of the night.

The most interesting player of the night was his pianist. This guy was just this side of terrible. Every solo he played was a fucking clinker. He regularly received only the most polite of applause, and sometimes next to none at all.

But there was one tune that they did that night that Ira had recently written, when it came time for the piano solo, this guy just rips the place apart! Amazing! The crowd responded with one of the most enthusiastic cheers of the entire evening.

Indiscriminate? Nah, not if your among actual Jazz fans.

[Chris A]

Manfred Eichmann

Yes, he was very annoying with his Nazi snores!

[Tom K]

Applause after a "solo" - we ought to be past the stage where solos were like circus numbers.

[Khaled Ahmad]

Man trust me, the people don't clap after every solo. If they don't notice your playing they won't clap or they'll only clap lightly.

And jazz solos as circus acts?! I don't get it

[GodSpeliZed]

Did you mean Manfred Eicher?


That's right, I meant exactly Manfred Eichmann..... even if he don't seem to me like a Nazi in the common sense of the word, it's only that his ability to make records with the same sound is in my opinion a little New Age(d) - that is, for me, Nazi, but in a more subtle (?) sense......

[Jesse]

That's right, I meant exactly Manfred Eichmann..... even if he don't seem to me like a Nazi in the common sense of the word, it's only that his ability to make records with the same sound is in my opinion a little New Age(d) - that is, for me, Nazi, but in a more subtle (?) sense......

In short, nuanced New Age Nazi? Filigree fascism? Teutonic tonality? Mein ECM?

Just wondering.

[Sergio Zamora]

That's right, I meant exactly Manfred Eichmann..... even if he don't seem to me like a Nazi in the common sense of the word, it's only that his ability to make records with the same sound is in my opinion a little New Age(d) - that is, for me, Nazi, but in a more subtle (?) sense......
Ah, got it! I hear what you're saying about the ECM sound (much talked about 'round these parts), but there are quite a few excellent ECM releases (imo) that one way or another overcome that cleaned-up, new-agey ECM thing. Louis Sclavis' releases fit that bill, as do Paul Bley's.

[GodSpeliZed]

I also think ECM published a lot of great musicians (beside all you quoted, even AEOC many years ago)...... what bore me about Eicher is that all the albums play the same way.... Manfred could register in a gothic cathedral or in a wine cellar and you will hear no difference..... that is a thing I hate (the all 'nazinewage' thing was only a joke to illustrate metaphorically my idea).

I could state similar things (even going OT) about Gabriel's Real World....... Peter made good things with 'world music', made it popular, even 'cool', but if you want to recor with him, you have to 'clean' your sound in order to don't shock the housewifes (Ps nothing agaist housewifes......). When Gabriel recorded 'Lost Souls' by Spaccanapoli, the result was something very different from what this group made (and also make today......) ; indeed, the group was broken in two: some musicians recorded the album (here in Italy many people made a lot of irony about the title of the record......), but the most of them decline, and actually make records with independent labels under the name of E'Zezi. Their albums are distributed only in Italy, but they prefer maintain their integrity rather than to have a mass success in a project in wich they don't believe.........

(returning to ECM) Many time I was tempted to buy ECM records (the RARUM series, last Sclavis.....) but I've stopped myself wondering if the way the music 'sound' could really satisfy me..... I've heard Sclavis live and was very nice, I don't have any Paul Bley album (and I think that I'll buy some, sooner or later, maybe I'll begun with his BYG).....

I have two samplers made by ECM for an Italian jazz review, one about Scandinavian scene (Terye Rypdal, Jan Garbarek and others, even Don Cherry, very 'tamed' in this occasion, at least if I compare this with Mu...), and another with John McLaughlin, Shankar and others musicians who mix jazz with Asian music.... particularly this second irked me, because it come very close to New Age music, while I was thinking to find something more interesting......

Anyway, who knows?, maybe I have too many prejudices..... (or lack of money.... if I have to spend about € 20 to buy a CD, there are so many things that I don't know or I want to deepen, so ECM could expect still a little time.......)

[AntManBee]

Many time I was tempted to buy ECM records (the RARUM series, last Sclavis.....) but I've stopped myself wondering if the way the music 'sound' could really satisfy me

I'm with you here. But it seems that they have gotten rid of some of that new age sound now, so it might be a bit safer to check out some ECM releases from the last couple of years.

[Tom K]

What I mean by solos as circus acts is that what interests me is the piece as a whole, which includes how one soloist hands over to the next, and how the whole band deals with the change. I can't hear this if everybody in the audience around me claps like mad for five minutes after even less-than-great solos. - In the circus the artist expects the people to clap after he has gone higher/faster.
- On the other hand, when I'm playing I can easily do without that dutiful applause.

[stonemonkts]

Those alternate take announcements you hear on Verve Cds annoy the shit out of me. I'm listening to Tal Farlow as I type this, feeling quite annoyed.

Who needs to hear the dweeb in the control booth?

[AntManBee]

Applauding solos... seems fitting in a way, with jazz being a genre focusing to such a high degree on individual performers and soloists, rather than bands (as in rock music).

[GodSpeliZed]

Then, I think you have to hear some live performance by Ingwie Malmsteen........ :D

[AntManBee]

Then, I think you have to hear some live performance by Ingwie Malmsteen........

Did you really have to remind me??? :eek:

:)

[GodSpeliZed]

Sorry, but I was as shocked as you yesterday, thinkin' that then I was more young, I loved his solos (!) and even his songs(!!).... and, above all, that in a corner of my cellar, I've still all of his albums on tape from 1985 to 1991(!!!)... Hope you all won't expunge me from this list...................................

[GodSpeliZed]

Sorry, but I was as shocked as you yesterday, thinkin' that when I was more young, I loved his solos (!) and even his songs(!!).... and, above all, that in a corner of my cellar, I've still all of his albums on tape from 1985 to 1991(!!!)... Hope you all won't expunge me from this list...................................

[GodSpeliZed]

Oooops.... I've quoted instead of edit my post.... damn to Malmsteen!

[groover]

One of the things I find annoying didn't make the list, which is the abuse of melody quotes in solos. Interpolating another well-known melody can be an effective way of catching the listener's ear, but some of the older jazz musicians chose quotes of vintage pop songs that sound trite today, and actually diminish the impact of their solo. Realizing the historical context of older recordings, I try to be forgiving of this, but it's still difficult to overlook sometimes.

[BayviewSax]

Jazz education.

[rollhead]

Jazz education.

Whoa. You had to dig deep to find this thread.

What? You think all Berklee grads sound the same?

My vote for most annoying thing in jazz goes to:

http://davidclementsproductions.com/images/mu-james-carter.jpg

[bostontricky]

My vote for most annoying thing in jazz goes to:
[/IMG]

What? The hat? The suit? (Don't you dare say "the bass saxophone" or I'm going to have to come down there and kick your ass, man!)

[Dennis Gonzalez]

One of the things I find annoying didn't make the list, which is the abuse of melody quotes in solos. Interpolating another well-known melody can be an effective way of catching the listener's ear, but some of the older jazz musicians chose quotes of vintage pop songs that sound trite today, and actually diminish the impact of their solo. Realizing the historical context of older recordings, I try to be forgiving of this, but it's still difficult to overlook sometimes.

I try to figure out if it happened "improvisationally" or if they had planned it all along. Then I get annoyed or delighted.

[Dennis Gonzalez]

Who needs to hear the dweeb in the control booth?
The musicians he's recording?

[Ron Thorne]

The #1 most annoying thing about jazz music is that there's not enough time in a lifetime to hear it all. :cool:

[Gary Sisco]

When did jazz ever go "do be do be do"?

[Vince Kargatis]

John Hendricks?

[Gary Sisco]

It was nearly always ascribed to Sinatra, actually, who I've always considered a saloon singer (and a damned good one, too), but not jazz. He had great time and pitch but didn't improvise.

[JamesH]

Guitar players who sound like frustrated rock musicians and can't play the blues.

The music of jazz icons who I've been waiting on for over a decade to realize their "potential".

Music that is masqueraded as jazz by the media.

75 minute cd's that sound pretty good for the first 40 minutes.

"Creative" jazz music featuring 2nd rate jazz musicians.

1st rate jazz musicians who can't get creative.

[clinthopson]

94.7% of singers trying to scat.

Bass or drum solos that last more than 16 bars.

[me wag]

It was nearly always ascribed to Sinatra
That was until the Bud Ice Penguin took it over.

[Gary Sisco]

Clint -- I'm with you on the scatting. Just because you can sing -- even sing well -- doesn't mean you can scat well.

[JamesH]

My vote for most annoying thing in jazz goes to:

http://davidclementsproductions.com/images/mu-james-carter.jpg

Yes. With James Carter being such a vital force in jazz and the topic of most jazz conversations.... he has such a presence in all of our lives, and that's just got to be annoying.

Sort of like a bee buzzing around ones head. :rolleyes:

[Mike Goodbar]

The use of the phrase "All That Jazz" to promote a jazz-oriented event.

[Ron Thorne]

Clint -- I'm with you on the scatting. Just because you can sing -- even sing well -- doesn't mean you can scat well.


I agree.

There are a few notable exceptions, however. I heard one last night . . . Roberta Gamberini. Lordy!

And, while gazing at her, she could sing from a phone book. :cool:

[clinthopson]

Ron,

You got that right!

We saw Roberta Gamborini at the West Coast Jazz Party a couple of years ago and she blew us away.

That lady is a real JAZZ singer and can scat like a m_________r.

[Paul B]

Jazz education.

Agreed.

Not sure if rollhead finds Mr. Carter annoying (I sure do), the bass sax annoying (I don't), or the sartorial flair of people such as Carter that screams "style over substance" annoying (the vote is out).

Gary, I think Sinatra is a little more than a saloon singer; his swing and articulation are enough to put him--with at least one foot--in the jazz category. Short of scatting, improvisation per se doesn't exist in traditional jazz singing--it's all in the interpretation--so I'm not sure how Sinatra's lack of it is a problem.

Speaking of scatting, it should have stopped after Ella....

[JamesH]

I don't find Kurt Elling annoying. But I'm not big on his singing style. Yes he can sing but the way he delivers his vocals is so over the top, it's smothered in hiptser cornball.

[Paul B]

Someone above mentioned long drum solos...

I heard David Murray's band last week at the Jazz Standard, and it was fantastic. Andrew Cyrille, Ray Drummond, and a great young pianist named Lafayette Gilchrist.

But as good as Cyrille is--and he's amazing--I didn't need the two 7-8 minute drum solos he played in the second set. One per set is enough for anybody, as those long drum solos just cause the tune to vaporize into the ether...

[kenny weir]

Most annoying thing about jazz: Musicians.

[JamesH]

Speaking of drummers. I recently saw Jeff "Tain" Watts at Yoshi's with McCoy Tyner and Joe Lovano. I'll take back my former comments-- the guy does play too loud.

[shrugs]

pianists with a weak left hand

[graypencil]

overly long solos by anyone ..

If you cant get your story out in 2 -maybe 3 choruses -get the hook!

:cool:

[Ron Thorne]

Speaking of drummers. I recently saw Jeff "Tain" Watts at Yoshi's with McCoy Tyner and Joe Lovano. I'll take back my former comments-- the guy does play too loud.

Well, thanks a lot, James. :rolleyes: We'll be seeing/hearing "Tain" with Branford Marsalis' quartet next weekend. I've been looking forward to hearing him in-person, but now . . .

If anyone knows of personnel changes in Branford's current touring band, I'd appreciate a heads up. Here's who we expect to hear:

Branford Marsalis - saxophones
Joey Calderazzo - piano
Eric Revis - bass
Jeff "Tain" Watts - drums

[Ron Thorne]

For those of you who haven't heard Roberta Gamberini sing and scat (briefly), there's a tasteful little podcast right here on JC (http://www.jazzcorner.com/innerviews/).

[hornplayer]

Someone above mentioned long drum solos...

I heard David Murray's band last week at the Jazz Standard, and it was fantastic. Andrew Cyrille, Ray Drummond, and a great young pianist named Lafayette Gilchrist.

But as good as Cyrille is--and he's amazing--I didn't need the two 7-8 minute drum solos he played in the second set. One per set is enough for anybody, as those long drum solos just cause the tune to vaporize into the ether...
I was just about to say that to me, the truly great drummer knows when enough is enough...... :cool: and if that one solo is all it should be , it may be talked about for decades...

[clinthopson]

You can count on one hand the number of drummers who can carry off a long solo without becoming boooooring.

We know who they are or were.

[JamesH]

Well, thanks a lot, James. :rolleyes: We'll be seeing/hearing "Tain" with Branford Marsalis' quartet next weekend. I've been looking forward to hearing him in-person, but now . . .

If anyone knows of personnel changes in Branford's current touring band, I'd appreciate a heads up. Here's who we expect to hear:

Branford Marsalis - saxophones
Joey Calderazzo - piano
Eric Revis - bass
Jeff "Tain" Watts - drums

I've seen that band a couple of times and "Tain" sounded fine. I think the night I saw McCoy Tyner everything was off (except Lovano who always sounds great). Christian McBride was supposed to be there but was attending James Brown's funeral service. The bass player that took his place for the night sounded out of place. Maybe that's why Watt's played so loud.

[Ron Thorne]

Thanks for that reassurance, JamesH.

Can you or anyone confirm the current personnel I listed for Branford's current touring band?

[Gary Sisco]

Paul -- I disagree about improvisation in jazz singing. It's not only in scatting. Better Carter, for example, rhythm aside, only rarely sang an established melody. Like Miles, she often started improvising right away, skipping the head or melody and getting right to it. Sarah Vaughn, Billie Holiday, Carmen McRae, Cassandra Wilson, Louis Armstrong, to name other examples, also sang improvisations apart from scatting.

I don't have any big deal about Sinatra, jazz yes or no. I dig him and dug him when it was way uncool for someone of my generation. He had great time, doubtless. But I choose to call him what he called himself, a saloon singer. A great saloon singer, I'd add.

[Paul B]

Fair enough. I'd call what Betty Carter does embellishment, not pure improvisation, but it's certainly a fine distinction and perhaps a meaningless one. As for the Chairman, I still think he has a lot of jazz in him (just as Bing did), regardless of what he would have said. But again, that's quibbling over a non-essential point.

[kennethcooke]

I am a huge ECM fan with about 400 titles in my collection but I just don't get Jan Garbarek. I find the sound he produces to be quite flat and toneless. I very much like sax players like Charles Lloyd, John Surman, Evan Parker for example and I am sure I am missing something as Jan Garbarek has produced an enormous back catalogue for Herr Eicher. Come to think of it I am not keen on Anthony Braxton either.

[burning dog]

I haven't liked much Garbarek has done since the 70s. In my experience people are sharply divided over his later music, it's not unusual.

[Paul B]

His very first albums are very good (i.e. Afric Pepperbird); after that, it's another story, except for a few good moments with the Jarrett group, such as "Personal Mountains."

[groover]

I don't have any big deal about Sinatra, jazz yes or no. I dig him and dug him when it was way uncool for someone of my generation. He had great time, doubtless. But I choose to call him what he called himself, a saloon singer. A great saloon singer, I'd add.

I consider Sinatra a popular singer. When jazz was popular, he was a jazz singer, by default.

[bernard lyons]

Worse things about Jazz ..

People sitting on websites bitching and trying to one up each other.

Although I do enjoy reading it

[Felix]

(just as Bing did)

Did you ever hear his version of St. Louis Blues with the Ellington band (around 1932, I believe)? Pretty good for a so-called "crooner". But Crosby and Sinatra were in the "entertainment" business, where there's really no place for anything else than a jazz flavor.

His very first albums are very good (i.e. Afric Pepperbird); after that, it's another story, except for a few good moments with the Jarrett group, such as "Personal Mountains."

Hey, I could have written the exact same thing. Afric Pepperbird and Personal Mountains are my favorite albums with Garbarek (along with Triptykon). Kenneth, if you have trouble with his later, somewhat antiseptic sound, you should at least hear those to see what he could do in his more combative years.

[Gary Sisco]

Paul -- Likely you're right that it's splitting hairs. Sinatra's 50's recordings with Nelson Riddle come as close to jazz as anything else. Almost all of those are close to perfect gems.

[Paul B]

Did you ever hear his version of St. Louis Blues with the Ellington band (around 1932, I believe)? Pretty good for a so-called "crooner". But Crosby and Sinatra were in the "entertainment" business, where there's really no place for anything else than a jazz flavor.

The fact that it was called the "entertainment business" back then in no way changes the incredible artistry of people such as Crosby who worked in it. He's as much an "artist" as any jazz musician--of any era. And nothing wrong with a non-jazz singer putting a little jazz "flavor" (not a word I'd choose, but I'll go with it here) into an interpretation when called upon. Certainly when he sang with jazz players he was able to make his thing work in their context.

[Gary Sisco]

I respect those "crooner" and saloon singer guys, both as a listener and a singer. Have you ever tried to sing along with a Sinatra record -- say, "I've Got You Under My Skin"? It's not just his timing and phrasing. Just try singing the same notes. His reach was extraordinary but he had a way (as did Billie Holiday and other great singers) of making it sound effortless.

[Ron Thorne]

A few more Garbarek suggestions:

Witchi Tai To - Jan Garbarek/Bobo Stinson Quartet
Nude Ants - Keith Jarrett
Deer Wan - Kenny Wheeler
Solstice Sound and Shadows - Ralph Towner
Solstice - Ralph Towner
Belonging - Keith Jarrett
Art Lande - Red Lanta
My Song - Keith Jarrett

Many of these recording also feature one of my favorite rhythm section pairings, Eberhard Weber and Jon Christensen.

As stated by a couple of posters, you'll note that these are earlier recordings with Garbarek, mostly from the 70's, his finest period in my estimation.

[burning dog]

There must be a fair audience for his later stuff out there. It doesn't seem to be a jazz one from conversing with "jazz people" in person or on the internet.

[Ron Thorne]

I've heard comments mostly centered around the fact that some former fans feel that Jan Garbarek has entered a "new-agey" realm which holds no appeal for them.

I think it's fair to say that he's probably not the only one in the ECM stable who may be branded with that characterization.

[burning dog]

I agree Ron but ECM still produce some fine jazz records of the slightly cooled variety. Paul Motian's stuff for example.

[Ron Thorne]

I agree Ron but ECM still produce some fine jazz records of the slightly cooled variety. Paul Motian's stuff for example.

Agreed. I wasn't trying to paint the entire label with that brush.

ECM has truly been a remarkable label for over 35 years. My hat is off to Manfred Eicher.

[burning dog]

Thats the way I look at it as well, I'm sure they still believe in all the music they produce, but a lot of it's not for me these days.

[Felix]

Paul and Gary, in my post I didn't mean I had no respect for Sinatra or Crosby (or other jazz-influenced crooners, like, say, King Cole or Mel Tormé). Those guys had a genuine interest in jazz, and were certainly great artists. What I meant was that in the entertainment business, where everything is influenced by sales, what is encouraged is hits, however mediocre, instead of genuine musicianship, which almost always means any sort of jazz influence will be kept to a minimum. And that explains why Nat King Cole, for example, was probably expected to sing "Unforgettable" more often than "Sweet Lorraine", and more generally expected to sing pop songs instead of playing an instrumental jazz number (which we all know he was more than capable of).

[Paul B]

Well, I'd agree that in the "entertainment business" (as you put it) hits are more imporant than artistry. I just don't think Crosby, Sinatra, Cole, or Torme were in that business, though as you say the record companies probably made them do work that wasn't always up to high artistic standards. Still, they were artists first; the fact that they sold lots of records was secondary, and they certainly weren't only in it for the money. But you're right that where commerce and artistry meet compromise is often inevitable...

[Gary Sisco]

The most annoying things about jazz, to me, aren't musical but have infected the jazz world nonetheless. One is its buying into the x% of music sales doom and gloom, when the sales numbers are almost entirely from statistics of sales at stores where only a tiny handful of jazz people would even think about buying music. Second is the attempt to make jazz a classical music, which necessarily means a music of the past. Jazz doesn't need to be classicized to be a serious music. It's already a serious music and always has been.

[Paul B]

Agree about the "classicalization." It's why, in the end, listening to jazz at Lincoln Center or Carnegie Hall is so unsatisfactory. I much prefer a place like the Vanguard...Jazz usually sounds ossified in a concert hall (though smaller rooms like Zankel aren't so bad for certain artists), which is why Dizzy's Club is the best part of JALC.

[JamesH]

....Second is the attempt to make jazz a classical music, which necessarily means a music of the past. Jazz doesn't need to be classicized to be a serious music. It's already a serious music and always has been.

Gary,

I always agree with about 85% of what you say.

I'd go further by saying it's already a classical music in addition to being serious.

Of course there are some people who confuse suits and expensive venues with classicism. Naw, that's just a way to earn money and make the upper middle class feel cool.

On the other hand calling music that swings and is inflected with the blues a living, vital and growing art form...I have no problem with that. No problem at all.

[Rob Damen]

Most of what's classified as classical music used to be played in solons and homes and now is played in concert halls and rooms both big and small. Needless to say, it survived the transition just fine over the last 100-plus years. Inevitably jazz will, too, much to the chagrin of those holding onto the old ways. Quite simply, there are people who are in denial of this inevitable evolution who claim to keep the jazz flame alive while merely hitching it to a romantic fantasy that fades ever more deeply into the past.

Cheers,

Rob

[Paul B]

Most of what's classified as classical music used to be played in solons...

I don't know what a solon is; maybe you can tell us.

Yes, classical music was played in salons, and as far as solo and chamber music goes, it would still sound better in such places, or the modern equivalents. The concert hall is good for nothing but symphonies and opera. The same is true of jazz. The music doesn't need WM to tell us it's classical; as James says, it already is. But the error lies in transplanting it to "classical" spaces, where it loses all immediacy. Good for some, I guess; upper east side socialites may find it more palatable. But I can't imagine anybody who would rather have heard Coltrane in Carnegie Hall than in the Village Vanguard. By the same token I'd rather hear Maurizio Pollini in a small room and not a cavernous concert space. So you see, it has nothing to do with believing in some "inevitable evolution" (or "denial"--that's a joke), but everything to do with the way the music sounds better. Apparently some don't care about that, though.

[bluenoter]

Most of what's classified as classical music used to be played in solons and homes and now is played in concert halls and rooms both big and small.
solon (http://www.bartleby.com/61/19/S0551900.html)       salon (http://www.bartleby.com/61/51/S0045100.html)


http://farm1.static.flickr.com/154/356375098_99c7a791ca_m.jpg (http://www.thehungersite.com)

[Rob Damen]

I don't know what a solon is; maybe you can tell us.

Yes, classical music was played in salons, and as far as solo and chamber music goes, it would still sound better in such places, or the modern equivalents. The concert hall is good for nothing but symphonies and opera. The same is true of jazz. The music doesn't need WM to tell us it's classical; as James says, it already is. But the error lies in transplanting it to "classical" spaces, where it loses all immediacy. Good for some, I guess; upper east side socialites may find it more palatable. But I can't imagine anybody who would rather have heard Coltrane in Carnegie Hall than in the Village Vanguard. By the same token I'd rather hear Maurizio Pollini in a small room and not a cavernous concert space. So you see, it has nothing to do with believing in some "inevitable evolution" (or "denial"--that's a joke), but everything to do with the way the music sounds better. Apparently some don't care about that, though.

The point is the change happened in classical music regardless of whether it sounds good here or there. At some point in time, the concert halls took over. That's a historical fact.

By the way, I was talking about jazz in general and said nothing about Marsalis. I just see a fundamental way in which jazz is being presented across the country and its parallel to classical music's history in that the venues simply changed as the years went by. I think it's inevitable in jazz because clubs aren't supported in the way they used to be.

Cheers,

Rob

[Rob Damen]

solon (http://www.bartleby.com/61/19/S0551900.html)       salon (http://www.bartleby.com/61/51/S0045100.html)


http://farm1.static.flickr.com/154/356375098_99c7a791ca_m.jpg (http://www.thehungersite.com)

By the way, "betcha" isn't a word.

Cheers,

Rob

[Ron Thorne]

By the way, "betcha" isn't a word.



It is in the urban dictionary.

[Paul B]

The point is the change happened in classical music regardless of whether it sounds good here or there. At some point in time, the concert halls took over. That's a historical fact.

By the way, I was talking about jazz in general and said nothing about Marsalis. I just see a fundamental way in which jazz is being presented across the country and its parallel to classical music's history in that the venues simply changed as the years went by. I think it's inevitable in jazz because clubs aren't supported in the way they used to be.

Cheers,

Rob

You're right that the change from small venue to concert hall happened in classical music; it's unfortunate, but there's little that can be done.

I don't see such change as being inevitable--or desirable--in jazz. In fact, most jazz fans probably prefer small to mid-size clubs, and luckily most of us can still listen to the music in such places. What Gary first mentioned as an annoying thing, and which I agreed with, is taking the music into "classical" venues such as JALC. The music doesn't need it, and listeners have better options. And things will likely stay that way, despite the preaching of a handful of musicians in thrall to corporations and ad dollars. Corporate jazz is good for some, but I'd rather be down at the Vanguard.

Bye-ya

[Rob Damen]

It is in the urban dictionary.

Sorry ...

Still, not a word.

Cheers,

Rob

[Paul B]

Sorry ...

Still, not a word.

Cheers,

Rob

Neither is solon.

[Rob Damen]

You're right that the change from small venue to concert hall happened in classical music; it's unfortunate, but there's little that can be done.

I don't see such change as being inevitable--or desirable--in jazz. In fact, most jazz fans probably prefer small to mid-size clubs, and luckily most of us can still listen to the music in such places. What Gary first mentioned as an annoying thing, and which I agreed with, is taking the music into "classical" venues such as JALC. The music doesn't need it, and listeners have better options. And things will likely stay that way, despite the preaching of a handful of musicians in thrall to corporations and ad dollars. Corporate jazz is good for some, but I'd rather be down at the Vanguard.

Bye-ya

Once again, it's not about what one likes over another, it's simply where it's heading. It mirrors what happened in classical music where you had plenty of people who objected to the change, but the change went forward anyway. Things never stay the same no matter how much we'd like them to do so. Clubs are not as healthy as they used to be, and there's no real sign the situation's going to increase with more jazz clubs popping up around the country. It's sad, no doubt, but it's what's been going on for some time now.

Cheers,

Rob

[Paul B]

Once again, it's not about what one likes over another, it's simply where it's heading...

Well, the thread topic is "Most annoying things in jazz," and jazz in concert halls is something I find annoying. I'm only responding with my opinion to the topic at hand. That said, I don't think that's where the music is heading, but I live in New York. Perhaps in the hinterlands it's a different story.

Bye-ya

[Rob Damen]

Neither is solon.

Coming to think of it, solon is a word.

Even bluenoter's little notes make that rather clear.

:)

Cheers,

Rob

[Rob Damen]

Well, the thread topic is "Most annoying things in jazz," and jazz in concert halls is something I find annoying. I'm only responding with my opinion to the topic at hand. That said, I don't think that's where the music is heading, but I live in New York. Perhaps in the hinterlands it's a different story.

Bye-ya

Sure, and I'm responding with my thoughts ... Tonic, Sweet Basil, Knitting Factory have had plenty of problems keeping themselves in the jazz business, to name a few. Few, if any, clubs of note have been popping up to replace them. But those concert hall places have been growing in places like New Orleans, Chicago, D.C., Cleveland, and, yes, New York. You might not like it, but it's happening.

Cheers,

Rob

[Paul B]

It's a proper name, not a word for a place where music is heard, but we'll leave it at that...

[Rob Damen]

It's a proper name, not a word for a place where music is heard, but we'll leave it at that...

Actually, it was one-letter typo, but you (and bluenoter) knew exactly what I meant when I typed it, but we'll leave it at that.

Cheers,

Rob

[Paul B]

Sure, and I'm responding with my thoughts ... Tonic, Sweet Basil, Knitting Factory have had plenty of problems keeping themselves in the jazz business, to name a few. Few, if any, clubs of note have been popping up to replace them. But those concert hall places have been growing in places like New Orleans, Chicago, D.C., Cleveland, and, yes, New York. You might not like it, but it's happening.

Cheers,

Rob

Tonic is alive and well, as is the Stone, both having long ago superseded the Knit. Sweet Basil changed its name to Sweet Rhythm several years ago and still has great live jazz almost every night of the week.

In New York, smaller places such as Barbes in Brooklyn, along with 55 Bar, Smalls, and the Fat Cat are where it's really going on. (It might be better to come to New York to see for yourself instead of reading about it all from afar). If one closes, something else pops up to replace it.

And I'd still wager most people who are true fans of the music would prefer to hear it played in clubs and not concert halls, and I don't think the day will ever come when jazz is only played in large venues. At least not in New York and other major cities. Lincoln Center is the sole jazz-only concert hall in New York, far from a trend or a harbinger of some great change.

As for New Orleans, I'd love to hear what shrugs says; ditto Uli for Chicago. Maybe they can chime in. Cleveland doesn't count as a major city, but from what I understand there are still some fine clubs there.

Bye-ya

[bluenoter]

By the way, "betcha" isn't a word.Here's my reply from the relevant thread, (http://www.jazzcornertalk.com/speakeasy/showpost.php?p=587805&postcount=19) where you also aired that curious notion.


http://farm1.static.flickr.com/154/356375098_99c7a791ca_m.jpg (http://www.thehungersite.com)

[Rob Damen]

Tonic is alive and well, as is the Stone, both having long ago superseded the Knit. Sweet Basil changed its name to Sweet Rhythm several years ago and still has great live jazz almost every night of the week.

In New York, smaller places such as Barbes in Brooklyn, along with 55 Bar, Smalls, and the Fat Cat are where it's really going on. (It might be better to come to New York to see for yourself instead of reading about it all from afar). If one closes, something else pops up to replace it.

And I'd still wager most people who are true fans of the music would prefer to hear it played in clubs and not concert halls, and I don't think the day will ever come when jazz is only played in large venues. At least not in New York and other major cities. Lincoln Center is the sole jazz-only concert hall in New York, far from a trend or a harbinger of some great change.

Bye-ya

As I've stated in the past, I've been to many of the clubs you've mentioned and just about all of them have struggled to stay afloat at one time or another and undoubtedly will again in the future. Actually, your post freely admits to my point with the name changes and the falling down of a once bustling venue. Sure, clubs can pop up in their wake, but that's not really been happening. Furthermore, the extreme phrase "only" was interjected by you here. Classical music isn't only played at concert halls, either, even in this era. Nonetheless, concert halls for jazz have been growning. People said all the same things you did hundreds of years ago about venue preference, etc., and that it would never change.

Oh well.

Cheers,

Rob

[JamesH]

... In fact, most jazz fans probably prefer small to mid-size clubs, and luckily most of us can still listen to the music in such places. What Gary first mentioned as an annoying thing, and which I agreed with, is taking the music into "classical" venues such as JALC. The music doesn't need it, and listeners have better options.


Large music halls, funky little clubs and everything in between are all viable as long as there is an audience.

To say that there is no need for venues such as JALC is simply a statement of your preference. You'll have a tough time convincing those that attend and enjoy the performances. And you'll have an even tougher time convincing those who collect the profits.

[Rob Damen]

Here's my reply from the relevant thread, (http://www.jazzcornertalk.com/speakeasy/showpost.php?p=587805&postcount=19) where you also aired that curious notion.


http://farm1.static.flickr.com/154/356375098_99c7a791ca_m.jpg (http://www.thehungersite.com)

And what do you know, it still isn't a word.

:)

Cheers,

Rob

[Rob Damen]

Large music halls, funky little clubs and everything in between are all viable as long as there is an audience.

To say that there is no need for venues such as JALC is simply a statement of your preference. You'll have a tough time convincing those that attend and enjoy the performances. And you'll have an even tougher time convincing those who collect the profits.

Good to see you back!

An excellent point as usual.

Cheers,

Rob

[Paul B]

]...To say that there is no need for venues such as JALC is simply a statement of your preference. You'll have a tough time convincing those that attend and enjoy the performances. And you'll have an even tougher time convincing those who collect the profits.

I never said there is no need for venues such as JALC. I said a) that I don't care to listen to the music in such places (see thread topic); and b) that I dispute Rob's notion that such places are superseding clubs as the primary place where jazz is experienced. It's that simple.

Bye-ya

[Rob Damen]

I never said there is no need for venues such as JALC. I said a) that I don't care to listen to the music in such places (see thread topic); and b) that I dispute Rob's notion that such places are superseding clubs as the primary place where jazz is experienced. It's that simple.

Bye-ya

Actually, I said it's likely heading in that direction as time goes by, but I didn't, in fact, say it's happened. I'm talking about trends here.

Thanks.

Cheers,

Rob

[Paul B]

Well, I disagree. I guess when there are more jazz concert halls in New York and other major cities than jazz clubs, you will have made your case. Until then, there's little evidence to bolster your claim.

[Rob Damen]

I didn't make up any ratio comparing the numbers of clubs to concert halls, either.

Thanks.

Cheers,

Rob

[Gloria]

VEERRY funny. I laughed. My first post, and I have to say applause after a solo. Let me hear the music! save the clapping for the end!

[Gloria]

Yes, but they are NOT in jazz msuic.

[Paul B]

I didn't make up any ratio comparing the numbers of clubs to concert halls, either.

Thanks.

Cheers,

Rob

You didn't have to; it's all implied in the "trend" you seem so sure about.

Bye-ya

[Rob Damen]

You didn't have to; it's all implied in the "trend" you seem so sure about.

Bye-ya

Actually, that's what you're projecting onto my meaning as it's not a one-to-one comparision.

Cheers,

Rob

[Paul B]

Actually, that's what you're projecting onto my meaning as it's not a one-to-one comparision.

Cheers,

Rob

I see. So though you say that clubs are having a hard time surviving and that new ones really aren't popping up to replace those that close, this has nothing to do with the rise of jazz performances in concert halls, which you call an unavoidable trend? That the demise of one type of venue and the growth of another are not related on a "one-to-one" basis?

Bye-ya

[Rob Damen]

I see. So though you say that clubs are having a hard time surviving and that new ones really aren't popping up to replace those that close, this has nothing to do with the rise of jazz performances in concert halls, which you call an unavoidable trend? That the demise of one type of venue and the growth of another are not related on a "one-to-one" basis?

Bye-ya

The clubs are clearly fluctuating financially, while the concert halls are continuing to build support both in terms of audience, educational and corporate sponsorship. While there are more clubs than halls, the halls have more outlets for drawing the necessary cash to support themselves. Thus, it's not about one club compared to one hall; it's about who holds economic power and access over time and how that power will likely, if not inevitably, play out as the years go by.

Cheers,

Rob

[JamesH]

I never said there is no need for venues such as JALC.

You said that "the music doesn't need it". The it being JALC.

[JamesH]

Good to see you back!


Thanks Rob.

[Paul B]

You said that "the music doesn't need it". The it being JALC.

Yes, jazz doesn't need large, corporate-sponsored concert halls, replete with huge company logos, limos outside, and holiday parties for investment bankers who rent the space on off nights. More power to it; obviously it suits some listeners and serves a certain need, but you've gotta be joking if you think it is essential for the well-being of jazz.

Jazz does need small spaces such as Barbes and Bar 55--where fresh music is played, listeners can mingle with the musicians, and the cost is not prohibitive--as well as old standbys such as the Vanguard and the Lenox Lounge. Those places will always be around in one form or another, and they're what keeps the music going.

[JamesH]

Yes, jazz doesn't need large, corporate-sponsored concert halls, replete with huge company logos, limos outside, and holiday parties for investment bankers who rent the space on off nights. More power to it; obviously it suits some listeners and serves a certain need, but you've gotta be joking if you think it is essential for the well-being of jazz.

Jazz does need small spaces such as Barbes and Bar 55--where fresh music is played, listeners can mingle with the musicians, and the cost is not prohibitive--as well as old standbys such as the Vanguard and the Lenox Lounge. Those places will always be around in one form or another, and they're what keeps the music going.

In a personal sense, I'm right with you. I don't like big halls and I love small clubs. You'd never catch me in a limo or BMW, even if I could afford it.

But my personal biases aside, I think that JALC promotion of jazz to the economic upper class doesn't hurt the music one bit.

Now the music at JALC may be too restricted or conservative for your taste but it is jazz, and from the listings I've read it's mostly top notch jazz.

Distinguished artist in suits and ties performing great music to a privileged audience. I see no problem with that.

[Paul B]

Cool, I can accept that.

[Pete C]

The point is the change happened in classical music regardless of whether it sounds good here or there. At some point in time, the concert halls took over. That's a historical fact.



It's a bit of an apples & oranges comparison. The transition in classical music you're talking about was one from private and elite to public and somewhat less elite. The jazz transition from club to concert hall is from public and non-elite to public and somewhat elite.

[Rob Damen]

It's a bit of an apples & oranges comparison. The transition in classical music you're talking about was one from private and elite to public and somewhat less elite. The jazz transition from club to concert hall is from public and non-elite to public and somewhat elite.

Not true, actually. Most people who attended operas at their height of popularity were not kings, queens and heads of state but "common people," and pianos were a staple in most homes throughout Europe. People forget that many pieces of "classical" music were in fact popular. At its inception, the recording industry was supported in this country, by and large, by classical music, but the advent of time has made many of us forget this.

Cheers,

Rob

[Rob Damen]

I should also state I prefer experiencing jazz in small clubs, too, but I suspect many who post here are about 40 and over and grew up with jazz that way. The younger generations, however, are often learning about jazz away from the clubs and in the classroom, and yes, at some of these concert halls. Thus the lore of jazz clubs might not mean as much to them as it does to many of us.

While it's been stated that many who learn in class don't have places to play, threre's a chance that might change if concert halls begin to develop more house bands, not unlike classical music. If combined with the proper corporate support, concert halls could become a way of life for jazz musicians thoughout the country that many of us didn't anticipate some 40 to 50 years ago.

Cheers,

Rob

[Paul B]

Fair enough; when you put it that way, your point makes sense. I also think the corollary (and I'm seeing this in New York) is younger players working at smaller places in the boroughs (and Jersey, I'd guess). Not jazz clubs, but cafes and bistros that become de facto jazz clubs for a night. Certainly not a way to make a living (the system you mention for "house bands" would no doubt be better financially for musicians), but definitely a way to get the music out there. As that Times article stated a few weeks back, the schools are pumping out hordes of top-notch players, and they all won't be able to gig at the big clubs. But they will find outlets, and this will mostly be through forming "creative cliques" that work on various projects and play small places. Or, as you say, at large venues that support them.

[Gary Sisco]

I have nothing against a small concert room but I do prefer hearing music in clubs.

My objection to the attempted classicization of jazz stems from its necessary aspect: A classical music, America's or anywhere's, is a music that exists in the past.

The music is "legit" and "serious" music *wherever* it is played and always has been. It gains nothing by classicization, an (imposed) canon, and so forth.

I didn't know that Solon lived for such a long time! ;-)

[Rob Damen]

"Classical" is simply a title for a certain music and does, at times, describe a certain era within that music. But there's plenty of things in "classical" music that are new just like in any music these days. I think the term's being used too narrowly, if not improperly.

Cheers,

Rob

[Gary Sisco]

Oh, bullshit.

[Rob Damen]

Care to expound?

Cheers,

Rob

[JamesH]

The music is "legit" and "serious" music *wherever* it is played and always has been. It gains nothing by classicization, an (imposed) canon, and so forth.

What does classicization and an "imposed" canon hurt?

Stopping for a minute to acknowledge the roots of the music and its greatest contributors has certainly not been objectionable in any other form of music or art. Why does it cause such uproar among certain jazz enthusiasts?

It cannot have any impact on creativity, because creativity exists in the mind of the jazz musician. Not in a book or magazine article. (Established styles and power structure hasn't silenced any innovative jazz musician).

Certainly the roots of jazz music which to a degree is alive and well in most every vibrant form of American music are not a limitation.

I just don't understand why suits, ties, books and formality cannot be a part of such an ingenious music.

[rollhead]

What? The hat? The suit? (Don't you dare say "the bass saxophone" or I'm going to have to come down there and kick your ass, man!)

Nooooooooo... I love the bass sax. It's just James Carter I don't care for.

[rollhead]

Yes. With James Carter being such a vital force in jazz and the topic of most jazz conversations.... he has such a presence in all of our lives, and that's just got to be annoying.

Sort of like a bee buzzing around ones head. :rolleyes:

The last time I saw James Carter swaggering on stage -- with all his high pitched squeeking and tongue slapping -- he very "coolly" took a reed out of his mouthpiece and theatrically threw it on the stage floor.... for someone else to police up. A real class act.

By the way, James... where you been lately?

[rollhead]

God, do I agree with Damen on something?

"Classical" is simply a title for a certain music and does, at times, describe a certain era within that music. But there's plenty of things in "classical" music that are new just like in any music these days. I think the term's being used too narrowly, if not improperly.

Cheers,

Rob

http://www.sequenza21.com/index.php

http://www.newmusicbox.org/

[rollhead]

Not true, actually. Most people who attended operas at their height of popularity were not kings, queens and heads of state but "common people," and pianos were a staple in most homes throughout Europe. People forget that many pieces of "classical" music were in fact popular. At its inception, the recording industry was supported in this country, by and large, by classical music, but the advent of time has made many of us forget this.

Cheers,

Rob

In fact when the Metropolitan Opera briefly switched to exclusively German language opera (from Italian language) about a hundred years ago, it drew out so many working-class Germans that it drove the rich crazy having all those smelly people around.

The Met was built by the rich who only wanted to "see and be seen" at the opera. It was the working class that had a real interest in the music back then.

Interesting history of the Met (by Arthur Fiedler's daughter)
http://talkingbooks.nypl.org/uploadedImages/Books/Molto%20Agitato.jpg

[JamesH]

The last time I saw James Carter swaggering on stage -- with all his high pitched squeeking and tongue slapping -- he very "coolly" took a reed out of his mouthpiece and theatrically threw it on the stage floor.... for someone else to police up. A real class act.

By the way, James... where you been lately?

I took a sanity break.

I've seen Carter a couple of times. In my assessment he's a marvelous talent and simply immature. He's also a smart guy who likes to take chances with his music. That makes his albums both inspiring and often spiraling out of control.

The spiraling part is, IMHO his effort to play something new. He just doesn't have the vision for it yet and probably never will. If he just played in the pocket and surrounded himself with a top notch rhythm section he'd be great. He'd bore the tears out of guys who don't really like jazz, but to me he'd be great. My guess is that's what he'll do when his maturity matches his age.

[Paul B]

....The spiraling part is, IMHO his effort to play something new. He just doesn't have the vision for it yet and probably never will. If he just played in the pocket and surrounded himself with a top notch rhythm section he'd be great...

Carter has been around long enough to have developed a vision and an approach. I agree with you--assuming you're being straight--that he'll probably never have it. I think the "spiraling" you mention (nicely put, by the way), far from being the result of him seeking something new, is just a guy with incredible chops who has no real idea what to play. So he plays it all, and it ends up sounding like nothing. Other players of his generation--Branford and Potter, to name two--have far more coherent and developed styles, and musically they're more advanced. And if you talk to saxophonists, most hold Potter in far higher esteem than Carter. But I've said enough about the man over the years here, so I'll rest my case.

Hope your sanity is restored. :rolleyes:

[Gary Sisco]

Miles was 19 when he played in Bird's band.

What's young?

[JamesH]

Other players of his generation--Branford and Potter, to name two--have far more coherent and developed styles, and musically they're more advanced. And if you talk to saxophonists, most hold Potter in far higher esteem than Carter. But I've said enough about the man over the years here, so I'll rest my case.

I like Branford much more than Carter. And I've heard enough of Potter to figure you're right about him too.

As far as age is concerned my guess is James will be kicking butt in his 50's. :) Seriously, he's got talent that other players only dream about and it will come together as soon as he's gets his act together.

[Gary Sisco]

As Roots rightly observed here once, virtuosity doesn't mean much if you don't have anything to say.

[JamesH]

As Roots rightly observed here once, virtuosity doesn't mean much if you don't have anything to say.

Carter has plenty to say as witnessed on every record he's produced. The problem is he can't sustain his ideas for more than a couple of tracks per record before going off into territory that is tasteless and boring.

He's certainly not the only name player who does that. As much as I like Branford, I find that his 70 minute CD's usually only have 30 minutes, at most, of good music. And there's many, many, more out there doing the same, it's just that James is one of the more inconsistent.

I'm not sure that will ever change, but instead of hating the guy, I choose to root for him.

[Gary Sisco]

Yeah, that'd be a problem.

Maybe he should make singles.

[JamesH]

Yeah, that'd be a problem.

Maybe he should make singles.

Cute.

[rollhead]

Carter has been around long enough to have developed a vision and an approach. I agree with you--assuming you're being straight--that he'll probably never have it. I think the "spiraling" you mention (nicely put, by the way), far from being the result of him seeking something new, is just a guy with incredible chops who has no real idea what to play. So he plays it all, and it ends up sounding like nothing. Other players of his generation--Branford and Potter, to name two--have far more coherent and developed styles, and musically they're more advanced. And if you talk to saxophonists, most hold Potter in far higher esteem than Carter. But I've said enough about the man over the years here, so I'll rest my case.

Hope your sanity is restored. :rolleyes:

I am always in the market for someone who plays more with less. They just seem to be incredibly hard to find these days. I see more and more of "more is more" players.

Any ideas? Anyone?

[JamesH]

I am always in the market for someone who plays more with less. They just seem to be incredibly hard to find these days. I see more and more of "more is more" players.

Any ideas? Anyone?

I've been digging Marcus Strickland's Twi Life album. He's the opposite of James Carter. Good chops but nothing extraordinary. Doesn't play a ton of notes but has good ideas and compositions.

I think he's played on a few Dave Douglas records. Twi Life is a very good one.

[Paul B]

Michael Moore, the alto/clarinet player, is a "less is more" player. He has a slew of good records out. I love his disc of Dylan covers, among others. Not many others come to mind, though; I'd have to give it more thought. Haven't heard Strickland's stuff, will have to check it out.

[Gary Sisco]

I didn't dig Moore much at first but he's grown on me til I do, especially in Clusone 3.

[stonemonkts]

I would add Paul Bley to the "less is more" category.

[John L]

I thought that Carter was really starting to get it together when Layin' in the Cut and Chasin the Gypsy came out. But Gardenias for Lady Day (my least favorite of all his albums) somewhat changed my mind. That and more recent albums would indicate that Carter is still unsatisfied, and actively searching for a direction. Like James, I really hope that he finds it soon.

[Fender Rhodes Freak]

I could do without vocals.

[Gary Sisco]

Can you use sign language?

[RHFusillo]

Oscar Peterson.

[Gary Sisco]

Harsh.

[barryC]

Wynton Marsalis

[el gigante]

most of the so-called avant-garde...

[Paul B]

most of the so-called avant-garde...

What do mean by "so-called" avant-garde? The term means many things, depending on the era in question. If you mean "non-bebop" (or re-bop, which is all we have now), I'd strongly disagree with your implied negativity.

[Gary Sisco]

Have you heard "most" of the a.g.?

[burning dog]

Wynton Marsalis


Not quite, it's topics on Jazz messageboards about WM!:D

[JamesH]

Misconceptions about so called "new" jazz music that's somewhere between 40 and 200 years old.

[Sandi22]

Not into much organ playing, but Jimmy Smith was really good to hear, even if he was the meanest man to ever walk through the door. He didn't make you ever think of church or a funeral. He was the worst.

[stonemonkts]

I find 99% of scat singing very annoying, and corny as hell.

[Gary Sisco]

Sandi -- I only got to hear Smith once, but it was in a concert hall (and for the likes of me an expensive night out, with dinner and tix for two). He and his drummer were both shitfaced. I'm not talking about having a bottle of wine over dinner. I'm talking slammed. The drummer was unable to play, although he clearly thought otherwise in his inebriation. Smith wasn't doing anything at all but slacking. Phil Upchurch made a valiant effort on guitar to salvage the music but it was impossible. We just left because the whole deal was an insult to the audience. I don't even listen to his records anymore, after that. Too rude.

[old student]

'Jazz' festivals featuring ... Rod Stewart? Ludacris? George Thorogood? Sly & the Family Stone? Seal? Foreigner?

[Ron Thorne]

I'm certainly glad that I was privileged to catch Jimmy Smith's Trio in Washington D.C. at the Howard Theater in 1962 when he was on fire and sober.

Among the most annoying things in jazz (or any) music are long drum solos which add absolutely nothing to the musical mix.

[JamesH]

What do mean by "so-called" avant-garde? The term means many things, depending on the era in question. If you mean "non-bebop" (or re-bop, which is all we have now), I'd strongly disagree with your implied negativity.

Your comments always reflect such a balanced perspective that's it's hard to question your obvious credibility.

Your characterization of music that reflects the jazz tradition, as "re-bop", is a strong case in point. In JazzTimes blindfold tests, jazz heavyweights like 80's R&B lite singer George Duke and tap dancer Savion Glover have both used that term, so consider yourself in good company.

....jackass

[iris]

I find 99% of scat singing very annoying, and corny as hell.


agreed - that's what i was going to post - i'm quoting Fred Hersch here - "don't do it unless your REALLY good at it you know..... like as good as Sarah Vaughan".....

[Paul B]

Your comments always reflect such a balanced perspective that's it's hard to question your obvious credibility.

Your characterization of music that reflects the jazz tradition, as "re-bop", is a strong case in point. In JazzTimes blindfold tests, jazz heavyweights like 80's R&B lite singer George Duke and tap dancer Savion Glover have both used that term, so consider yourself in good company.

....jackass

I borrow the term from Steve Lacy, who used it--aptly, I'd add--to describe the hordes of players still slinging around the same ideas (old hash, as Lacy called it) which, though once exciting when played by originals, are now worn out and tired several generations later. You know, the kind of music you champion around here all the time.

Lacy had another good term for it: recreation. As in a light, easy diversion--and as in re-creation. Either way I'll pass.

Bye-ya

[Pete C]

Tonight I made the mistake of listening to Jarrett's Standards Live through headphone. His tortured vocalizations went straight into my ears.

[Paul B]

Is that the first live date (I think the trio's third record), with "Too Young to Go Steady" and "The Old Country?" Jarrett's grunts are annoying, but sometimes it's worth it.

[Pete C]

Is that the first live date (I think the trio's third record), with "Too Young to Go Steady" and "The Old Country?" Jarrett's grunts are annoying, but sometimes it's worth it.

Yes.

[JamesH]

I borrow the term from Steve Lacy, who used it--aptly, I'd add--to describe the hordes of players still slinging around the same ideas (old hash, as Lacy called it) which, though once exciting when played by originals, are now worn out and tired several generations later. You know, the kind of music you champion around here all the time.

Lacy had another good term for it: recreation. As in a light, easy diversion--and as in re-creation. Either way I'll pass.

Bye-ya

Old ideas are not my thing either. I don't see why anyone would enjoy music played the same way it's been played before.

But most great musicians bring their personal humanity and cultural outlook or feeling to the music, Steve Lacy, would be a case in point.

Perhaps I misunderstood you. It would be good if you gave examples of some of the players and playing that you call "re-bop". I know you don't like Marsalis and James Carter. I'm not much of a fan of Carter and I like only about 40% of the music Marsalis has made. So we may be close in those assessments.

What else is going on that you don't like? Are Chris Potter, Bill Charlap, Mulgrew Miller, Greg Osby, Robert Glasper and Joe Lovano "re-boppers"? If not who?

[claude]

What I have been finding the most annoying in jazz lately are jazz "technicians" for want of a better word. These guys are very rarely gigging outside of their own local area and have a very narrow view of what jazz should be and don't mind telling anyone who plays any differently that they are wrong. There seem to be lots of them posting on saxophone websites. They're the type who just seem to take all of the joy out of the music by nitpicking all the details but ignoring the overall content of the music.

[Paul B]

Claude, you're right on the mark (and I think we both know the saxophone website to which you refer, since I think we both post there). The "right" way usually leads to the most boring, lifeless music. The schools are perhaps the biggest part of the problem, unfortunately. I used to call it the "Berklee syndrome," though that usually ends up causing someone to shout at me.

To respond to James, I don't put Potter, Osby, Lovano, Charlap et al in the "re-bopper" camp--they work within the idiom though they transcend it, at least in part (that said, aside from Lovano I'm not terribly interested in any of them).

By re-boppers, I simply mean players--both at well-known establishments (no need to name them) and the clubs that dot the country--who, like Claude said, play it by the book (or like Lacy says, re-create the music). They follow the handful of iconic bop and post-bop players, and don't deviate in any way from the dogma. They all sound alike; you'd be hard pressed to pick one out of a lineup. Some got to be famous, like Richie Cole; others just play local gigs or New York clubs and leave you wondering why you bother.

Everybody has the right to play what they like, but I have the right not to care about most of it. [There are also players doing the same in the free/avant idiom, though they are far less in number and don't tend to have the "my way or the highway" attitude of the re-bopper.]

[Sandi22]

Sandi -- I only got to hear Smith once, but it was in a concert hall (and for the likes of me an expensive night out, with dinner and tix for two). He and his drummer were both shitfaced. I'm not talking about having a bottle of wine over dinner. I'm talking slammed. The drummer was unable to play, although he clearly thought otherwise in his inebriation. Smith wasn't doing anything at all but slacking. Phil Upchurch made a valiant effort on guitar to salvage the music but it was impossible. We just left because the whole deal was an insult to the audience. I don't even listen to his records anymore, after that. Too rude.

Missed your post somehow Gary.

About Jimmy Smith, he walked into the Lighthouse somewhat early one afternoon and we were sitting where we sat if we wanted to see the piano player, in this case, the organ man. Two rows back from the stage. We were back at the back table for a few minutes, the one against the back wall, talking to some friends, before we settled in for the sets. Our drinks were still on our up front table. There was a fellow in the front row, just in front of our table, he and his friend. They were both older gentleman in their mid to late 50's I'd say. We were just teenagers at the time. John Levine the owner, Stan Levey, and Frank Rosolino had warned us off of Jimmy, to avoid him at all costs, and to not do anything to rock his boat, this when they learned earlier in the week that we would be coming in to see him play. We had lost our preferred spot, as there sat this gentleman all dressed up in his suit, with his leg out into the aisle, as the place was a bit cramped, especially where he was sitting with his friend. The bar was still empty for the most part, the band hadn't even arrived, so it was everyone milling around visiting with one another, mostly locals. Finally the band arrived, and Jimmy Smith was the first band member to take to the stage, and he had more than ample room to walk around the fellow, however, he chose not to, instead, he barged right ahead and kicked him, and I mean, he kicked him hard. He then lashed out with profanity's at the poor guy who was bent over in pain holding his leg, with a look of disbelief on his face, looking around at all of us and at Jimmy, he was so taken aback about it all. The man looked like a rounder faced Jack Teagarden, to let