Loft Scene, on Record
 

Hey all,

As some of you may know, I've taken some modest steps toward researching, and writing on, the loft scene (particularly in NYC). I'm working on more theoretical, grad school type stuff right now, but I hope to write a good history, with lots of interviews, in the future. That said, I could really use some help in finding the best, most representative examples of music worked out in the lofts. It's an under-recorded period, and any tips on good stuff, whether it's made it to CD or not, would be great.

So--what are the best recordings of that era? I'll get the ball rolling with what I've been listening to lately...

"Wildflowers: The New York Loft Jazz Sessions" (obviously)
Air - "Air Mail" (I've still got to pick up the Nessa release, then spend too much tracking down a copy of "Air Lore"...)
Arthur Blythe - "Lenox Avenue Breakdown"
Ornette Coleman - "Friends and Neighbors: Live at Prince Street"
Frank Lowe - "Black Beings"
Music Inc. - "Live at Historic Slugs" (This is the first Strata-East record I've bought...)

I really want that William Parker release, "Through Acceptance of the Mystery Peace," too.

Thanks for any input you all might have...

Nice start. I have an extra copy of Air Lore on LP. If you are interesting in purchasing it contact me offline.

"Air Lore" was Air's most popular record at the time, but I think that "Air Raid", Nessa's "Air Time", and Air's live recordings have more of the loft feel.

Clay Fink--I'll be PMing you soon... Thanks!

SEK--Thanks for the advice. Could you tell me what you mean by "loft feel"? I don't know if it can be put into words, but I'd seriously like to know what you mean... Also, do you know if "Air Raid" still available?

Anyone have a good grasp of those Knitting Factory reissues? Is that a good area to go into for this stuff? So far, I only have Wildflowers and "Duo Exchange" (Ali's stuff is important, too, I've just remembered...). For example, what are the good Roland Shannon Jacksons, etc.?

Although I LOVE Lenox Avenue Breakdown, it didn't really capture the Blythe loft sound. For that you should check out India Navigation's The Grip or Metamorphosis, or Adelphi's Bush Baby. Anything on India Navigation sounds like it was recorded in a loft: Chico & Kings of Mali by Chico Freeman (back when he was kicking ass; very unlike now), Egwu Anwu by Jarman & Moye, Birthright - awesome solo baritone by Bluiett, plus releases by Jay Hoggard & Cecil McBee that I can't remember the names of. Murray had Flowers for Albert on India Navigation and Low Class Conspiracy on Adelphi is good also.

I'm sure there's a lot of stuff I'm forgetting; I'll post again if/when they hit. Stuff on Black Saint and Soul Note during the late 70's and early 80's was remarkably edgy and is very worth your while.

Air Song is another great one.

I can't speak for SEK but when I refer to a loft sound it means it's recorded in a small space with fairly low-tech equipment. The bands tend to be small because of the space considerations.

Thanks Cap'n--please, keep them coming as you remember them! Much appreciated...

By "loft sound", I refer to a kind of exploratory rawness and openness that was available in the '70s, when the emergent properties of this music were still valued in the pre-Wynton (and I don't mean Kelly) 'era. I don't mean to imply that those values have ever been extinguished, but they certainly receeded during the '80s on many fronts.

I think that Captain Hate's suggestions are excellent and encompass some of my favorite recordings ever. India Navigation had several wonderful releases, including "Air Song" and "Air Raid" (both of which are now available on expensive Japanese CDs; Dusty Groove is a good source).

"Kings of Mali" is splendid indeed. I managed to copy my old LP to CDR before it became [I]too[/I] messed up.

Check out Hamiet Bluiett - Impossible To Keep (Bluiett, Pullen, Hopkins, Moye). The liner notes contain many references to the loft scene, and even mention Crouch's involvements (and subsequent 180 degree turn away from it).

Jonny, how do *you* define "loft scene" for the purposes of your research?

You should certainly add the new Jimmy Lyons box to the list. Most of it was recorded at Sam and Bea Rivers' loft. If you really want to do research, I would contact William Parker. I know he has an extensive collection of tapes he made in the 80s.

Are you taking an extended view of the loft scene? I'm pretty sure Slugs was a commercial club/bar, and the Music Inc. guys, though similarly independently minded weren't really active on the NYC loft scene.

I was a regular at Studio Rivbea, Ali's Alley and Ladies' Fort (Joe Lee Wilson's place). Another one I never got to was Studio We, on the lower east side.

You definitely want to include the Revolutionary Ensemble and Gunter Hampel's Galaxie Dream Band.

The setup at Rivbea was that there was usually, but not always 2 groups, and often the Rivers trio (or sometimes an extended ensemble) was one of them. I remember towards the end the performance space was moved upstairs from the basement (my last time there, I think, was in '76 or '77 for Sunny Murray with David Murray). I first went there in '74, and probably went about once a month for a couple of years.

At Rivbea you could buy sodas and fried fish sandwiches that Bea made.

The first time I ever saw Blythe he sat in with Frank Lowe at Rivbea, and was introduced only as "Black Arthur."

The most crowded I ever remember Rivbea getting was for Braxton.

Earl Cross was a very active trumpeter on the scene, as a sideman and with his own nonet. I don't know whatever happened to him. He recorded with Charles Tyler. Ted Daniel was also very active.

I remember seeing Shepp at the Ladies' Fort, ca. 1976 or '77.

Ali's Alley had at least 2 incarnations--first as a pure loft, then a club with a liquor license. I saw Pharoah there when it was a full service club. Of course Rashied Ali played there a lot, but I also saw him a number of times at Rivbea, as both leader & sideman. Check the Knit Classics catalog (though beware that they may be screwing artists on royalties) for rereleases of some Ali's Survival Records catalog.

A lot of music that hasn't been released is probably in WKCR's archives, as they had a lot of in-studio performances during that period. I believe Charles Tyler's "Voyage from Jericho" and Joe Lee Wilson's "Livin' High Off Nickels & Dimes" were both originally WKCR radio broadcasts. WBAI also occasionally featured the music in a series, with live audience, called The Free Music Store. I saw Shepp's Attica Blues band and Don Cherry & the JCO doing "Relativity Suite"
there.

Albertson could probably tell you more about the Free Music Store. Joe McPhee's Survival Unit was recorded there.

Olewnick could tell you about John Fischer's Environ. Lacy's solo album, "Snips," was recorded there. They featured an overlapping but somewhat different crowd.

I'll pipe in as pertinent memories/suggestions pop up.


Here's an excerpt from an interview with William Hooker:


[url]http://www.knittingfactory.com/hooker/Interviews/Welcome.html[/url]

CAD: When did you move down to New York?

W.H.: About '74, '74 or '75.


CAD: Did it take you long to meet like-minded musicians and find places to play?

W.H.: No. It didn't take me long at all. I just went down there and I started to go around to see who was playing, who was doing what. The loft scene was happening. I played in all the lofts. I was playing with all the people who were getting recognized, but they didn't recognize me for some reason.


CAD: Who were those people?

W.H.: Well.. On my first album I've got: Hassaan Dawkins, David ware, David Murray, reeds. And they played with me. I didn't play with them, you see. I used to play at a place called Studio WE. I used to go in there, I used to always get a gig there. I met a lot of different people: Ahmed Abdullah, Malachi Thompson, Jameel Moondoc, Alan Braufman, who's now Alan Michael... all those people were coming out of 501 Canal Street. And the people from Chicago were starting to come in, but I didn't play with them. Everybody was starting to coalesce in New York at the same time. So I got there at a good time. The rents were cheap. You go there now and it's impossible. You got to pay $2,000 for a room. But I didn't have to so that. I didn't have to fight gentrification, I didn't have to fight developers. I had a little place where I could always go and practice. But Stanley Crouch had it all sewed up, and I wasn't exactly one of Stanley Crouch's friends. Partially because of that I didn't get recognized, I didn't get written about.

[FONT=courier new]As you probably know, our own Brian O. worked at a loft during the period you're researching. (I think you should interview him online.)[/FONT]

A recording from Ali's Alley that comes to mind is "Abullah live at Ali's Alley" on candence and probably still available. It depends a bit how you define "loft scene". The Creative Construction Company's records were recorded in a Church, iirc.

Jonny, feel free to ask me (here or privately) anything about Environ. I worked there (helping Fischer run the place) from late '76 to early '80, when it went out of business). Might also be able to help with info on places like the Tin Palace, Jazzmania, the Kitchen, Axis in Soho and other concurrent venues.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Pete C [/i]
[B]Olewnick could tell you about John Fischer's Environ. Lacy's solo album, "Snips," was recorded there. They featured an overlapping but somewhat different crowd.
[/B][/QUOTE]
There's a disc of material reissued on Konnex from Environ with Fischer, Mark Whitecage, Charles Tyler, Perry Robinson, Lester Bowie, etc on it titled Environ Days. Maybe still in print, who knows with Konnex. Can't remember a lot of details but that it is two LPs (one of which I have on vinyl and should get rid of) stuck onto one disc, so all the names above don't neccesarily play together.

Arthur Blythe Bush Baby

Yeah, my memory is that you saw Blythe around a lot more with one of his trios then. Either the guitar one with Kelvyn Bell or the tuba one with Joe Daley (maybe Bob Stewart sometimes).

Fischer put out a few things both with his Interface band (that included at various times, Robinson, Whitecage, bassist Rick Kilburn, Lawrence Cook and others) and in collaborations with other musicians. There's an LP of duos with, iirc, Bowie, Tyler, Blythe etc.

All good suggestions above. I've got a fairly offbeat addition: Check out drummer Todd Capp's [i]Improvising Orchestra, Vol. 1: Quintessence[/i], self-released on his own Lucky Tiger imprint. Capp's not well known (though he's an accomplished player), but he's also got a really interesting view of the transition from the loft scene to the rise of the Knitting Factory. Capp's disc includes William Parker and Rashid Bakr on the one hand, Ray Anderson on the other. He's also got a fairly astonishing guitarist named Kim Starner, who sounds something like a cross between Bill Frisell and a Space Invaders machine. He's one of those guys that you hear and say, What the hell ever happened to him? (In Starner's case, I actually know the answer; he moved to Athens and started playing bouzouki in restaurants. I charged our friend Vince with tracking him down but don't know that he was ever successful in doing so.)

Capp's full of interesting stories, as I learned when I wrote the liner notes for the disc. (I'm not credited because we had a bit of a falling out, but we patched things up later.) He stopped playing for many years, but can now be heard semi-regularly in the free jazz blowouts on Sunday nights at CBGBs.

[URL=http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&uid=MISS70305141823&sql=A5fkvu3x0an7k]Click here for more information.[/URL]

Among my favorite lofts was the old Jazz Forum which was on Braodway near NYU

I know for certain they recorded there on a few occasions
One session I witnessed was Red Rodney & Ira Sullivan who did an album for Electra Musician label caleed "Spirit" or 'Spirit Within' [something like that]

Marc Morganelli ran that place, and still books concerts and festivals in and around NY [Westchester], and maintains a website called JazzForumArts...not sure if it's a dotcom or dotorg but getting hold of those folks would be the source for a loft that had a pretty good run, and had some very good music presented there.

Jazz Forum was, however, a more mainstream scene.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Pete C [/i]
[B]Jazz Forum was, however, a more mainstream scene. [/B][/QUOTE]

Though I remember going to a fantastic benefit concert for Dave Holland there (when he initially had some heart problems, I think). Sam Rivers big band, Brax, George Lewis and many more.

I don't think the author of the thread asked whether the music, was mainstream, 'downstream' or 'no_stream' just "loft scene" [particularly NYC], and as has been pointed out, they mixed it up there pretty darn well back in the day.

But the loft scene as it's generally thought of as a movement was a legacy of 60's free jazz.

OK, I'm speechless! There's so much good info here, and it's all just what I was looking for.
I'm also strapped for time, so I'll get back to you all on your many wonderful points. I have lots of ideas and theories, and I'm sure you'll all help me test them. I'll write more later (I'm off to see Cecil Taylor talk about Ted Joans!), and I'll answer some questions put to me, and ask plenty more... Thank you all so much for the information!!

BTW, Clay--I just bought a copy of Air Lore on CD 20 minutes ago! Thanks sincerely for the offer, though.

Monty Waters was also a major player on the scene. He may have helped Joe Lee to run the Ladies' Fort. I think he's been in Europe for some time. Joe Lee divides his time between the UK & Japan.

I also found this on Eugene Chadbourne's Warren Smith bio on AMG:

"During the late-'70s/early-'80s "loft jazz" scene in New York City, his Studio Wis was one of the few so-called "lofts" that actually was a loft. It was also not a "pay-to-play" loft; in other words, rather than exploit the city's hungry musicians, Smith gave generously of his personal studio space so that talented newcomers to the New York City scene such as Oliver Lake and Wadada Leo Smith could present concerts without having to worry about outrageous rental fees. Warren Smith often attended these events, smiling wider as the music went further and further out, approaching the unknown players to pay compliments and offer advice. His work in studio sessions and Broadway pit bands made him a likely source of wisdom on all subjects related to sight reading, arranging, or composition. When a young guitarist in a group performing at Studio Wis asked for advice on sight-reading exercises after a gig in 1979, Smith's response was typical of the man's generous nature. He strolled into a small office adjoining the performing space, and out of his own personal library of study material chose a superb book to give to the young musician as a gift: a copy of Louis Bellson's Odd Time Reading Text, one of the most helpful collections of sight-reading exercises ever published."

I'm not sure of which places Chadbourne accuses of being "pay-to-play."

from [url]http://www.jazzreview.com/articledetails.cfm?ID=106[/url]

Sam Rivers:

"The move to New York was automatic after I'd played with Miles - you were one of the chosen. More importantly, I went because of my compositions. But moving from Boston to New York cut my income in half. It was a sacrifice.

In New York, I formed a group right away. We rehearsed at a Harlem public school at 133rd Street. Anthony Braxton and Bob Stewart showed up and any other musicians who had just hit town. Thankfully, it was a very fertile time and there were a lot of them.

Musicians are a strange lot. If the music's not happening, they want to get paid for rehearsal! If it's challenging and fresh, they'll play for free. I never had to pay anybody.

Soon we needed a bigger space so I found this "loft" downtown - an old 100' x 35' warehouse with a balcony - owned by Robert Deniro's mother. We called it Studio Rivbea after me and my wife, Beatrice. It was more for woodshedding at first, not really a performance space, but when the Newport Festival came to town in '68 and ignored all the new musicians we decided to start our own festival.

Europeans heard about us and would show up - five languages being spoken, two hundred people in the space. After six months, I got a call from the New York Council of the Arts and they said: 'You're doing a great thing. How can we help?' We were able to pay the musicians with that.

I did that for ten years but quit because other clubs got to coming round and stealing the musicians cause they could pay more."


* * *

from: [url]http://www.freeassociationradio.com/wparker1.htm[/url]

In the early 70s, William Parker was studying bass with a who’s-who of bassists: Richard Davis, Jimmy Garrison, Milt Hinton, and Paul West, who was his first teacher and the bassist for Dizzy Gillespie. At age 20, he started playing at the Salt and Pepper Jazz Club in the South Bronx and began composing and playing jam sessions in local clubs in Harlem and Brooklyn.

It was in 1972 when he started performing in the so-called Loft Scene at Studio WE, the East, Ornette Coleman’s Artist House, and Sam Rivers’ place, Studio Rivbea, which is where he met and performed with many musicians he would go on to play with, including saxophonist Jemeel Moondoc. In 1974, William had done a session at WKCR radio, which was the initial session of a recording later released under the name Through Acceptance of the Mystery Peace, which was inspired by a poem from Kenneth Patchen. The record was meant to contain a varied selection of different kinds of music that William was playing during this period. The 1974 session includes many of the musicians he played with regularly during this time -- Jemeel Moondoc on alto, Charles Brackeen on tenor, Arthur Williams on trumpet, Henry Warner on clarinet, Billy Bang on violin, Roger Baird on percussion, and of course William on bass...it’s entitled “Rattles and Bells and the Light of the Sun”...

* * *

from: [url]http://www.miaminewtimes.com/issues/1999-12-09/music.html[/url]


Rejection isn't new to Rivers, despite being long acknowledged by the cognoscenti as a singularly creative jazz voice. Speaking of Studio Rivbea, the famed New York City loft-cum-performance space he ran in the Seventies, he declares, "Downbeat never mentioned it; Downbeat didn't say anything about it.... They never mentioned anything that I was doing, like I didn't exist. And I was wondering why. What did I do; what did I say to someone?" His voice rising, he muses, "Did I tell someone to kiss my ass that I should have, and they really took offense to it? It's probably something like that, you know?"

* * *

From: [url]http://www.allaboutjazz.com/articles/arti0801_08.htm[/url]

[Ray] Anderson moved to New York in 1973. At that time the loft scene was "really jumping and was in full swing. I spent a lot of time in those lofts (listening to the music). That was a wonderful time musically. The center of the whole thing was Sam Rivers and Studio RivBea. And there was Joe Lee Wilson's place right down the street, the Ladies Fort. Those two were really the thing, but I played in a store front on 501 Canal Street with a bunch of folks you probably never heard of. We'd give these little concerts that no one came to. It didn't make any difference. The loft scene was a beautiful thing! The music was more adventurous!"

* * *

from: [url]http://www.velocity.net/~bb10k/PARKER.disc.html#03.05.23-1[/url]

William Parker

"...early '70s, they had the beginning of the New York Musician's Organization, with Noah Howard and Juma Sultan [Santos?] ...Dave Burrell was on there, Wilbur Ware, Archie Shepp, Karl Berger. It was way before the Creative Music Studio... spanned a whole building, six floors. ...from there we eventually moved over to playing at Studio We in the daytime... and Sam Rivers' Studio RivBea for the night-time activity. ...about '73 was when he had his full schedule going, he had music seven nights a week." --William Parker, interview by Bob Rusch [CADENCE Vol.16 No.12 December 1990 p.6]


"There was a place on 11th Street and Avenue C called the Firehouse and Andrew Hill would come by, and Billy Higgins, and Billy Higgins invited me to his house on St. Mark's Avenue in Brooklyn. Wilbur Ware was staying there, and Clifford Jordan would come by. So I went out there whenever I could, and we would just play. Then I began playing at [Sam Rivers's] Studio Rivbea four or five nights, I was one of the house bass players at Studio Rivbea, and also Studio We. Everyone that came through there, I played with. I basically had on-the-job training supplemented with bass lessons with Richard Davis and Wilbur Ware, and I studied with [John Coltrane's bassist] Jimmy Garrison a bit. It was 24 hours music during this period from about '71 up till about '75." --William Parker interview/article by Steve Holtje [WIRE #152 October 1996 p.24]


72.00.00 - ...[Parker] started his first big band, the Aumic Orchestra..." [MAGNET #34 May/June 1998 p.41]


"First time I played with Jemeel [Moondoc] and Charles Brackeen at Studio RivBea, with Sunny Murray, Frank Lowe. So I used to play down there maybe 3 or 4 times a week. House bass player kind of, but I was independently contracted with different groups." --William Parker, interview by Bob Rusch [CADENCE Vol.16 No.12 December 1990 p.6]

* * *


see: [url]http://members.tripod.com/vermontreview/CD%20Reviews/knitclassics3.htm[/url]

Experimentation is a New York Thing: The Knit Classics(Part 3 – Education and & Free Jazz: The Lofts and The Creative Music Studio)
By Brian L. Knight

Hey all,

Sorry to drop out after all those great posts. I've already cut and pasted parts of this thread to begin a discography, add to research notes, etc. I plan on contacting those of you generous enough to offer, and you all seriously have no idea how much I appreciate your input! I will certainly thank the forum, and individual identifiable posters, whenever (in the future, with luck,) something is published.

Now... The question of how to define the loft scene... I think this is something that will have to be worked out not only in researching, but in the actual writing. Clearly, people refer to playing in lofts in the early to mid-60s. You could even say that pre-bop rent parties were not unlike the loft scene, I guess. Still, it's my impression that, around 1970, so many clubs closed, or stopped booking jazz, that not only avant-garde, but many mainstream players were faced with the necessity of finding non-traditional venues for performance in the U.S. (meaning not only lofts, but churches and community centers).

My personal investment is with the free jazz tradition, but I think it would be folly not to include efforts like Strata-East, and Jazzmobile, and to account for the influence of musicians outside of the loft orbit (Miles, Hancock, jazz artists associated more with universities...).

Stylistically, the big question is, is the loft scene "a legacy of 60's free jazz," as Pete C rightly identified it to be generally thought as, or if not, what are the differences? I think the differences are obvious to people who listen to the music, but come on; how many people listen to this kind of 70s jazz?

SEK's description of the loft era is close to how I'm thinking: "a kind of exploratory rawness and openness that was available in the '70s, when the emergent properties of this music were still valued in the pre-Wynton (and I don't mean Kelly) 'era. I don't mean to imply that those values have ever been extinguished, but they certainly receeded during the '80s on many fronts." ...I'm talking about the bridge between the era of Coltrane and Ayler, and the neo-con young-lion 80s. At this point in jazz history, when that bridge is hardly recognized as even existing, I think it's more important to keep my focus almost entirely on the 70's, rather than on what came before or after... Does that make sense?

I've interviewed William Parker at length about this stuff, and he has been incredibly open, helpful, and giving. Many of Pete C's links are new to me, and almost every album mentioned is new to me as well. Thanks for helping to start me on this path, people.

It's interesting to see Rivers say "Downbeat never mentioned it; Downbeat didn't say anything about it.... They never mentioned anything that I was doing, like I didn't exist." Rivers is all over Downbeat from at least '74 to '76! the only other artist active in the lofts to have their name mentioned on the cover is Frank Lowe. Rivers' records are reviewed, there are page-length listings for his festivals, etc. I understand his anger (after all, he wasn't given the coverage I think we'd all like to see...), but Downbeat certainly didn't ignore him...

One last thing: Are there books dealing with the lofts that anyone knows about? As Serious As Your Life doesn't really talk about lofts, but instead about many of the musicians; it is of course, essential. Eric Porter's What Is This Thing Called Jazz talks about the collectives and Jazzmobile a little... I know of books that sort of refer to elements of the loft scene, but am I missing any that look at this stuff head-on?

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Pete C [/i]
[B]
I'm not sure of which places Chadbourne accuses of being "pay-to-play." [/B][/QUOTE]

Don't know about the other places, but the way it went at Environ was this: The performers did pay a "rental fee" for the evening. This was equivalent to a day's worth of the monthly rent Fischer was paying for the loft (which, incidentally, was owned by Dave Brubeck's kids who lived in the back half of it). My recollection is that it was $30-$40. After that, the musician would get 100% of the proceeds from the door up to a certain amount, maybe $200. (Ticket prices were about $5). Above that point had been reached, the money would be split 50-50 (our portion generally going into space upgrades, piano tunings, etc.

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Pete C [/i]
From: [url]http://www.allaboutjazz.com/articles/arti0801_08.htm[/url]

[b][Ray] Anderson moved to New York in 1973. ... I played in a store front on 501 Canal Street with a bunch of folks you probably never heard of. We'd give these little concerts that no one came to. It didn't make any difference. The loft scene was a beautiful thing! The music was more adventurous!"[/B][/QUOTE]
I'll bet you anything he's talking about those Todd Capp gigs...

Todd also told me that he once played with a newly arrived Tim Berne on the little traffic island at the Franklin Street subway station, or maybe it was in a doorway across the street...

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Jonny Miner [/i]
[B]
Stylistically, the big question is, is the loft scene "a legacy of 60's free jazz," as Pete C rightly identified it to be generally thought as, or if not, what are the differences? I think the differences are obvious to people who listen to the music, but come on; how many people listen to this kind of 70s jazz?
[/B][/QUOTE]

I don't think there's a contradiction in stating that the scene was a legacy of the 60's free jazz movement but that the music was something other than 60's free jazz.

And speaking of legacy, are you coming to Tonic tonight for Sunny Murray & Dave Burrell.