AMM: Jazz or Not?

[Reid]

I don't know if it's possible to address this question without the discussion turning into a defense or attack against AMM, and their music. As many of you know, I love this group, so I'm not posing the question in a way to challenge the value of their music. I will love this group whether their jazz or not.

Anyway, I was a little surprised to find them included in the Penguin Guide. At first I thought they were too far outside of jazz to be considered a jazz group. Listening to more of their music, I'm not so sure. Here's what makes them connected to jazz, imo:

1. Prevost's playing is very much connected to jazz drumming in my opinion. The way he plays the snare and cymbals seems connected to jazz drumming (as opposed to rock drumming or any other type of drumming). Of course, there are times when his playing doesn't seem to have any connection to jazz drumming.

2. Tilbury also has a avant-garde jazz way of playing. His playing is not as dense as some of the Taylor-esque pianists, but I think of Taylor for some reason, albeit more minimal. (The middle section of Newfoundland, where the music gets dense, has a free-ish quality to it.)

3. They seem to value sensitive interplay, and there also seem to be a thrust or drive to their music, albeit a subtle one. I think this is truer of their earlier music.

Here are some reasons why I wouldn't consider them jazz:

1. Keith Rowe. He's my favorite musician in the group, but I can hear almost no connection to jazz in the way he plays. He doesn't seem to be drawing on jazz vocabularly at all, particularly from the vocabularly of jazz guitarists.

2. At times their music doesn't seem to have any trace or connection to jazz (besides sensitive interplay in an improvised context).

[Brian Olewnick]

I'm sure we've gone over this before but....When AMM was founded (1965), they were musicians enormously under the influence of the ag jazz of the time, particularly Ornette, Coltrane, Taylor and Mingus. At the same time, they understood that in respect for that tradition, they could not simply aspire to imitate them, that they hadn't the background or history to do so. They thus decided to create a music that was freely improvised with as few referents to other music as possible. This meant, among many other things, no thematic material and no solos, two jazz-realted components. Somewhat later, especially when Cardew joined, the ideas of Cage, Feldman, etc. became just as important as their jazz heroes though, again, their specific methods were not used.

Keith understands that, given a paucity of categories, AMM is pretty likely to be filed in the jazz section of record stores and, often, is referred to as jazzof some sort. He disagrees but it doesn't particularly matter to him.

[Tom Storer]

Brian, you've established that their *intent* was to avoid trying to be part of the jazz (or any) tradition. Reid gives some reasons he thinks they're jazz-like to some extent - reasons which may exist regardless of the artists' intent.

[Steve Reynolds]

maybe the most exciting aspect of this band (the current trio - which I my preference) is the tension between the jazz leaning of Prevost and the otherworldly approach of Keith Rowe.

I don't consider this music jazz, but I consider it jazz influenced.

[Brian Olewnick]

Tom, understood. If AMM were playing the head of "Cherokee" and then Rowe soloed over Tilbury and Prevost and then said they weren't playing jazz, well, we'd be deep in pomo irony I guess. And while I agree that Prevost makes occasional reference to a free jazz tradition (he was, in fact, a jazz drummr as a youth) it strikes me as too narrow an element to define the whole. Rowe also came up as a rhythm guitarist in Mike Westbrook's jazz band but,as Reid rightly notes, you simply don't hear jazz references in his playing. I don't agree that Tilbury makes any particular reference to Taylor; instead I think both he and Cecil make reference to a similar Euro-avant tradition (on those occasions when the former gets "noisy"). [Yes, I understand that Taylor is reluctant to admit of this influence, but personally, I think it's there].

If Reid or others hear jazz, well, everyone's definition of the subject varies. For me, it falls on the other side of the divide. Not that I worry about the matter too much.

[Uli]

No. AMM is not jazz. But if it creates the same feelings with their fans, let them have it.

[Sergio Zamora]

Let me think about it for a while...........................................

No.

I don't really hear a whole lotta jazz in Tilbury's playing - at least not consistenly. I'll go relisten to 'Newfoundland', though. I've heard him play very abstract music and very melodic music, but not with the same rhythmic drive that a jazz musician would have.

As Steve mentioned, it's the tension between three musicians that leads to the restrained tension in the music. Prevost's much more strongly jazz-influenced playing against (modern) classically-based Tilbury's playing against Rowe's thing is what makes AMM so special. You force one personality over the others too much and it'll destroy it. In that sense, the interaction between them is very important - like in jazz - but at the same time it's achieved very differently.

[Dennis Gonzalez]

No. Yes. Maybe. Probably. Possibly. Never. Always.

Ay-Emm-Emm

[jazzfiend]

Hey Dennis, thanks!

That just about sums it all up for me.

[Reid]

I think Brian is right when he says that if Tilbury sounds connected to Taylor it's because Taylor has European influences. Actually, it's not like I have a lot of experience listening to 20th Century European pianists.

Just on a side note, I gotta say that I really love the fact that I can bring up a question like this without the discussion turning into an "attack" or "defense" of the artistic value of AMM. A few years ago I don't think that would have been true.

[Pete C]

Other than for the pure joy of talmudic hair splitting, does it matter?

[Pete C]

Originally posted by Reid
Just on a side note, I gotta say that I really love the fact that I can bring up a question like this without the discussion turning into an "attack" or "defense" of the artistic value of AMM. A few years ago I don't think that would have been true.

This is, after all, the new Speakeasy.

[Dennis Gonzalez]

The Kinder, gentler Speakeasy!

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

The best of all possible Speakeasys.

[Brian Olewnick]

Before surfing to the Speakeasy, I took coffee with Rita and Steve Minkin.