The Countdown Is On

[S.Eden]

Supreme Court rejects last-minute Alabama chief justice appeal


GINA HOLLAND, Associated Press Writer

Wednesday, August 20, 2003



The Supreme Court refused Wednesday to block the removal of a Ten Commandments monument from an Alabama judicial building, rejecting a last-minute appeal from the judge who installed the display.

The justices said they would not be drawn, at least for now, into a dispute over whether the monument violates the Constitution's ban on government promotion of religion.

The high court was Alabama Chief Justice Roy Moore's last hope to avoid a federal judge's midnight deadline to remove the display. It was unclear if Moore would comply. Other state officials have said the monument would be moved.

Moore's lawyers told justices in a filing that Moore should be allowed to "establish justice by acknowledging the guidance and favor of Almighty God, placed upon him by his oath of office and the Constitution of Alabama."

Moore installed the 5,300-pound stone monument in the rotunda of the judicial building two years ago after being elected chief justice amid publicity of his support of the Ten Commandments.

The Supreme Court has never ruled on the constitutionality of such indoor and outdoor government displays. In 1980, the court barred Ten Commandments from classroom walls in public schools.

The justices' refusal to intervene was not a surprise. An appeals court had twice refused to give Moore a stay.

"It's not like somebody's about to face execution, if the court doesn't enter a stay the person will be dead and the appeal will be moot," said David Frederick, a Washington attorney who specializes in Supreme Court practice. "If the Supreme Court were to decide it's constitutional, it can always be put back."

Moore had pledged last week to defy the judge's order. His emergency stay request was filed Wednesday with Justice Anthony M. Kennedy, who oversees cases from Alabama. Kennedy referred it to the full court, which said in a one-sentence order that it was rejected.

Moore has already asked the Supreme Court to consider whether the judge overstepped his bounds in the case, and a second appeal in the Ten Commandments case is expected. Those could take months to resolve.

Groups that challenged the monument filed papers at the Supreme Court arguing that Moore should be required to obey the lower court's mandate. His compliance "will promote the public interest and will uphold the integrity of the federal judiciary in the face of Moore's attack," wrote Ayesha Khan, legal director of Americans United for Separation of Church and State.

In Alabama, Moore's supporters held a candlelight vigil early Wednesday.

"Even if they should remove this monument -- and God forbid they do -- they'll never be able to remove it from our hearts," said the Rev. Greg Dixon of Indianapolis Baptist Temple.

U.S. District Judge Myron Thompson has said he may fine the state about $5,000 a day if the monument is not removed by the end of the day Wednesday. He has said it would be permissible for the monument to be moved to a less public site, such as Moore's office.

________________________________________________


This should be interesting, at the very least. Some have even gone as far as to say this is the most important battle over states' rights in a long time.

[bluenoter]

Originally posted by S.Eden
Some have even gone as far as to say this is the most important battle over states' rights in a long time.

Why states' rights? Since when don't states have to obey higher (federal) courts' mandates? Somehow I'd thought that the "states' rights" battles had been over for decades--wishful thinking, perhaps.

U.S. District Judge Myron Thompson has said he may fine the state about $5,000 a day if the monument is not removed by the end of the day Wednesday.

In the interest of separation of church and state, I hope he fines the hell out of them if they don't comply.

[shrugs]

Alabama is a fur piece from here.

[Ron Thorne]

What a crock! Many in this part of the country are still fightin' the Civil War, too.

Originally posted by shrugs
Alabama is a fur piece from here.

Not far from Nawlins', though, "short-timer"! ;-)

[shrugs]

True but it made me think of Lena Grove. Faulkner's character in Light In August.

"I have come from Alabama: a fur piece. All the way from Alabama a-walking. A Fur piece."

Guess it's better to think about that than these twisted bible thumping fanatics.

[Monte Smith]

The judge behind this brohaha, Chief Justice Moore, was just on HANNITY AND COLMES and he made what is actually an insightful point: if he must remove a stone monument to the Ten Commandments from his court grounds because it violates some principle called the separation of Church and State, will courts everywhere be required to remove statues of Themis, the Greek goddess of justice, from their buildings and property for the same reason?



Why or why not?

[shrugs]

tha's all he can muster? Hell, half of Alabamy don't even know where Greece is.

[bluenoter]

Originally posted by Monte Smith
an insightful point: if . . . it violates some principle called the separation of Church and State

It was Thomas Jefferson who coined the phrase by expressing his view that the First Amendment created a "wall of separation between church and state." You're the self-professed exemplary patriot, Monte. If that's just "some principle," what principles do you operate under instead?

[Monte Smith]

I think it's a principle good people can still have divided opinions about, blue. Especially as it is practiced today.

If you support the principle so fundamentally, what is your position on the goddess Themis being memorialized in front of many federal and state court buildings? Isn't that worthy tradition of American jurisprudence also an infraction of the state's ban on publically supported religious expression?

[shrugs]

I wonder what we would see if we looked at case precedent and stare decisis? I assume that is still what is used by judges when looking at the past to solve the present. How many decisions were strengthened by a Proverb or such? And are still cases that stand today when it comes to decisions.....

[shrugs]

themis?
I ain't brought a thermos to work since Betsy died.

[mke]

Does Themis still have any religious relevance?

[Tom Storer]

Originally posted by Monte Smith
if he must remove a stone monument to the Ten Commandments from his court grounds because it violates some principle called the separation of Church and State, will courts everywhere be required to remove statues of Themis, the Greek goddess of justice, from their buildings and property for the same reason?

Why or why not?

No, for the simple reason that the worship of ancient Greek gods is a bygone practice, so very far removed both temporally and geographically from the US of A that government-sponsored statues of Themis cannot really be said to imply official preference of a particular religion.

[Pete C]

Themis is OK as long as her breasts aren't showing.

[Underhound]

10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass , nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.

My uncle Bernie lives in Alabama and he has been known to covet his neighbor's ox pretty regularly without any hassle from the man.

So my question is; do the 10 Commandments reflect the law of the land?

I hope all those Alabamians are "keeping the sabbath holy" lest they face the wrath of Judge Moore.

[Tom Storer]

Good point, Underhound. To my knowledge, neighbor-directed coveting is not against the law. That statue could mislead upstanding Alabamians into thinking they had to renounce coveting their neighbor's house, wife, manservant, maidservant, ox, ass, and any other thing that is their neighbor's. This is outrageous irresponsibility on the part of Judge Moore.

Impeach! Impeach!

[mke]

Well, according to http://www.moseshand.com/:

All of America's social, economic and health problems are solvable by the application of God's given laws. These laws are recorded in Deuteronomy, explained by Moses, confirmed by Jesus Christ and taught by the Apostle Paul.

(emphasis in original)

Maybe the judge is on to something.

[Enforcer]

It's amazing how many people have either read, or are at least pretty familiar with, that crazy little collection of fairy tales that they put in churches and hotel rooms.

Never concerned about burning any bridges,
Larry

[mke]

Originally posted by mke
Maybe the judge is on to something.

Then again, maybe not, as only two of the ten commandments refer to something the courts can rule on.

[hornplayer]

Originally posted by bluenoter

Why states' rights? Since when don't states have to obey higher (federal) courts' mandates? Somehow I'd thought that the "states' rights" battles had been over for decades--wishful thinking, perhaps.

I also thought that..... I thought "States Rights" was a code phrase meaning SEGREGATION.

[Ennis Snavely]

Originally posted by Underhound
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass , nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.

I thinks Im coveting yer ass, hound under.

[Ennis Snavely]

Originally posted by mke
Well, according to http://www.moseshand.com/:

All of America's social, economic and health problems are solvable by the application of God's given laws. These laws are recorded in Deuteronomy, explained by Moses, confirmed by Jesus Christ and taught by the Apostle Paul.

(emphasis in original)

Maybe the judge is on to something.

Yer darn tootin he is!

[Ennis Snavely]

'n Monte's little one is lookin better 'n better...

[RBS]

Ern't it true that one of them durned
Ten Mandments is "Thou Shalt Honr Thah Fathur n' Muther?"

Wall, ah been honrin' mah maw fer a long'n tahm!
We maykes sweet luv everihday!

[Underhound]

I thinks Im coveting yer ass, hound under.

Just don't covet my anus, Ennis.

[MRS]

Couple not really related thoughts:


-never associate yourself with the 'States' Rights' party.

-a history professor in high school told us never, ever to vote for any party with the word "American" in the title.

-Ennis. . .I was watching old Eddie Murphy last night and he talks about Cosby's newborn Ennis. . .so sad

[Clay Fink]

This constant mocking of southerners as being sub-verbal, incestuous man-rapers is really becoming offensive. We're not all like that.

Of course I'm really not a southerner, but I have played one on TV.

Ennis is real.

[Underhound]

I'm coveting Clay Fink's new avatar as we speak.

[MRS]

Originally posted by Clay Fink
Of course I'm really not a southerner, but I have played one on TV.

Floyd Lawson?

[Monte Smith]

I have to say, Clay Snavely's insights do point out a rising trend in American jurisprudence: sodomy good, 10 Commandments bad. If we could put a huge granite monument to Hustler magazine in front of the court, we'd be fine.