What's the right thing?

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

Walter says one of the reasons he likes Trollope is that the ethical questions are so close...

Let's suppose, to take a wild hypothetical, that you were a square dance caller. Let's suppose that at your busiest and best weekly club, Catherine de' Medici had repeatedly insulted Helen of Troy to the point that Helen and her husband stopped coming to this club and joined another. At the time, Catherine was in an official club officer, in a position from which she has since been removed because of other similar problems.

Helen has told you and others that if Catherine and her husband stopped attending on that night, they would return.

Other club members are so eager to see this happen that they have suggested that you say enough wicked things aimed at Catherine&husband from the microphone that they leave, so Helen and Hubby can return.

Helen and Hubby are a greater asset for the club in a number of ways and Catherine continues to alienate others.

But if you do it that way, it will reflect on you, and that's not good for either you or your clubs.

What's the right thing?

[Monte Smith]

The answer is obvious. Load up Catherine's beverage of choice with a powerful, tasteless laxative. Catherine's gusting irruptions will do your talking for you, probably in mid-dosey doe and in the wake of the embarrassing display you may graciously welcome Helen and her paramour back into the fold. Don't mention it, I've actually thought a lot about situations like this one.

[Pete C]

Why don't you tell them that they're responsible for people leaving and others are pissed off at them too, so maybe they'd do better to get a fresh start at in a new group. However, if there's a board with officers, that should probably be their job.

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

I like it, Monte. Needn't involve me directly and undoubtedly much more fun and a story to be enjoyed forever.

[Sergio Zamora]

Way too much drama, dude. How old are these historical figures? I mean if they were children, I'd say the caller should talk to their parents. Otherwise, the caller should not get involved in the telenovela.

But that's how I roll. I like to chill.

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

Why don't you tell them that they're responsible for people leaving and others are pissed off at them too, so maybe they'd do better to get a fresh start at in a new group. However, if there's a board with officers, that should probably be their job.

They know all that. And, to be fair, they both did an extraordinary amount of good work during the first of the two major recent square dance wars. (Don't ask.) They've never done anything blatant, nothing close to reason to ask them to leave the club much less be barred from attending.

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

Otherwise, the caller should not get involved in the telenovela.

That's how I've played it so far. And in general I agree.

But if you knew Catherine and if you knew Helen....

[Cem]

I'd give Catherine a stern warning: "One more and you're out!" Convince Helen to come back based on this warning and that Catherine will apologize to her and others she's pissed off, maybe apologize to the group even.

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

I'd give Catherine a stern warning: "One more and you're out!" Convince Helen to come back based on this warning and that Catherine will apologize to her and others she's pissed off, maybe apologize to the group even.

You're clearly talking about a different Catherine and different Helen.

[Cem]

I'm trying to work with the info at hand. What are they like? Maybe you need a fascist dictator like me to deal with this... no one else there to take charge without you getting too involved? After all, you're just the song and dance man...

[Pete C]

This is a job for Brandy Glass.

[clinthopson]

As the guy shouted to the diva when she finished her aria, "Show us your tits."

And the winner would be. . .

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

As the guy shouted to the diva when she finished her aria, "Show us your tits."

And the winner would be. . .

Sold! I can't do this of course, but I'm hoping Cem and Clint can come to town to chant the chant. Sweet!

[Sergio Zamora]

That's how I've played it so far. And in general I agree.

But if you knew Catherine and if you knew Helen....

Well, if I may quote Trollope, you're fucked if you and you're fucked if you don't.

It's from 'The Warden' if I'm not mistaken.

[Dr Dave]

No, no, no: Be direct. "Catherine, every time you come in here and diss Helen, you are fucking with my scene. I don't know what it is with you two, and frankly I don't care, except that it is BAD FOR MY BUSINESS. So whatever your beef with her is, you can go on doing it, JUST DON'T DO IT IN HERE."

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

Cem: didn't mean to sound so harsh above. What you suggested would be reasonable in many situations, but wouldn't begin to reach these two very strong and self-assured women.

Cem and Doc: there are real questions about what can and cannot be threatened and done. My Sunday night club, my advanced club, is a caller-run club, a little shop I run once a week as a sole proprietorship. I call all the shots, and at that club I would have dealt with things directly and done what you suggest. But these problems wouldn't have arisen at my caller-run club -- I'd have gotten in people's faces long before this.

Most clubs, including the one involved in this situation, are run by dancers elected by the club's membership. In the case of this club, they are also officers of a non-profit corporation. As I say, the Medicis haven't done anything so overt that they've messed with the club's bylaws, and I don't think the club has legitimate grounds to yank their membership. I'm not sure a motion to do so on the current board would pass -- it would seem to set a bad precedent that could be misused in the future, and the Medici haven't burned all their bridges yet (although an increasingly large number of people are getting the silent treatment from them).

At some point, the Medici may have enough people avoiding squaring up with them that they will start getting left out regularly. Squares have exactly four couples, and it often falls out that, say, three and half squares form, so two couples sit out. Certain couples -- weak dancers, hygienically-challenged dancers, grumpy dancers -- tend to wind up in the unfilled squares more often, and sit out more. (At my caller-run advanced club, we used a computer program to randomly mix the couples evenly with all the other couples -- avoids the pluses and minuses of squaring up freely.) If in time the Medici come see that they are being regularly excluded, that might influence them. Thing is, they're fairly strong dancers, so they're desirable square-mates for any weaker dancers they haven't alienated yet.

Hovering over all of this for me is this (bleeding-heart?) feeling that Catherine must have had something terrible happen to her, or why else would she be such damaged goods; and to the extent that she enjoys herself and stays clear of me -- and she gives me a smile and wide berth -- I should provide her with songs and dances and go about my business.

[Tom Storer]

the Medicis haven't done anything so overt that they've messed with the club's bylaws, and I don't think the club has legitimate grounds to yank their membership.

In that case, you are being asked to use your "power" as caller to humiliate Catherine de Medici and her husband publicly, in effect doing the dirty work that the anti-Medici members can't or won't do themselves. If you do that, you will effectively be entering a basically juvenile personality clash as a full ally of one camp--a hired assassin, in fact. Let's face it, that sort of tactic is underhanded and difficult to justify.

Were you to do this, it would be in the expectation that it would work, that Catherine and her husband would indeed leave. However, you also said that they are aware of the issues, and that they have done excellent work for the group in the past. Apparently they are at once committed to the group and stubborn enough to withstand conflict. There is a real possibility that even if you do as proposed, Catherine and hubby will simply stand firm. Then where you will be? I'd guess that Catherine and hubby, who seem to be comfortable with this level of nasty group politics, would begin working to undermine your position and get a new caller. This sort of thing can go on for years. You could well wind up making more enemies than friends, and those who are now egging you on to be aggressive in their place will not necessarily show much gratitude.

So, the right thing ethically, IMO, would be to decline to say wicked things about her over the mike. As you point out, you don't have full information about her motivations and she has not done anything to you personally. You would only be a proxy agent for other people's anger. And the right thing pragmatically would also be to decline, because you have no guarantee that it would resolve the situation in any way, and would end up with a significant risk of worsening your own situation.

Dr. Dave's suggestion, that you ask her one-to-one to refrain from being such a pain in the ass because it's wrecking the ambiance, could work. But then again, if Catherine is as warped a personality as your account makes it seem, that alone could be enough to simply cast you as another enemy. Tread carefully.

[Sergio Zamora]

Fixed

...bla bla bla, ethics, bla, bla bla...Tread carefully.

Or you could agree to do it for $100.00

Bribes are an easy, fun, and profitable way to resolve ethical dilemmas and interpersonal conflicts.

[Tom Storer]

Yeah, but a hundred bucks is nowhere near enough.

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

Yeah, but a hundred bucks is nowhere near enough.

I'm going to have to outsource this anyway, so I'll open it up to bids, going for the twofer on the same night, the laxative plus the 'show us your tits,' I feel sure I can raise a hundred, who'll give me a hundred, can I get a hundred, job offered at hundred, one zero zero, can I get a hundred...

[Pete C]

I'm going to have to outsource this anyway,

http://www.tcs.com/homepage/Pages/default.aspx

[Sergio Zamora]

Yeah, but a hundred bucks is nowhere near enough.

Indeed, I apologize to Steve for undervaluing his bribing skills.

[Dr Dave]

Cem and Doc: there are real questions about what can and cannot be threatened and done.

I am not recommending threats. Just that you state a position, and make the point of reference business, not whose side you're on.

Hovering over all of this for me is this (bleeding-heart?) feeling that Catherine must have had something terrible happen to her, or why else would she be such damaged goods; and to the extent that she enjoys herself and stays clear of me -- and she gives me a smile and wide berth -- I should provide her with songs and dances and go about my business.

Can't help you there. Having something terrible happen to you is sad, but it isn't an excuse for bad behavior. Not that I haven't tried it myself...

[GoodSpeak]

My advice?


Admit you were wrong once and move on to the next square daints gig.


Try to be humble, SDC Steve....you can do this.

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

Admit you were wrong once

OK. I was wrong once.

[Sergio Zamora]

OK. I was wrong once.

No you were not, but since you were wrong about being wrong once, I guess now it is true.

[tippy]

Couldn’t someone accidentally crush Catherine’s lower body in the parking lot?

[Ron Thorne]

For what it's worth, I was wrong once, too. But, since my wrongness had something to do with SDCSteve, doesn't that cancel out the fact that he was wrong once? Just askin'.

[GoodSpeak]

No you were not, but since you were wrong about being wrong once, I guess now it is true.

Yes he was.


And stay away from the hot sauce, Omar....it's rotting your brain.

[ran]

No, no, no: Be direct. "Catherine, every time you come in here and diss Helen, you are fucking with my scene. I don't know what it is with you two, and frankly I don't care, except that it is BAD FOR MY BUSINESS. So whatever your beef with her is, you can go on doing it, JUST DON'T DO IT IN HERE."

How ever way you approach this, its not going to be easy and there are going to be wounds. Doc's got ticket on this one. It draws the line between who's responsible and the animals that are trying to run the asylum. kind of like the way goody's class must act when he's teaching.

Sorry I had to , kinda of a "must" and an "allow" thing.