NBA PLAYOFFS 2O12

[Uli]

I doubt that. Rondo's my favorite Celtic, but he wouldn't be much of a defensive factor against Jordan or Magic. Howard tends to be an erratic "Superman", and he'd probably be a defensive liability against centers like Jabbar, Chamberlin, or Hakeem. Kobe and Melo are certainly serious contenders because when they're on, they're unstoppable. Durant, Rondo, Rose need more time to be considered as belonging on a top-five dream team.

yes, mine is more a dream team of the future than of the past and only time will tell. Time is a funny thing as it passes the past often gets legendized. The reason I don't put any stock in legends by people like Simmons is that he once thought that the D'Antoni Suns played the basketball of the future. imho that has turned out to be a complete joke. of course I mite be wrong to believe that Rondo is the baketball genious of the future but Simmons assessment of D'Antoni's genious has alredy been proven wrong, imho.

more generally, I think it's problematic to compare past to present players' achievements in all sports. sports have the tendency to get bigger faster more athletic etc over time.

[steve(thelil)]

Kobe, Howard, Melo, Durant and Rondo would kick their ass.

My team was Russell, Lebron, Magic, Jordan and Oscar OR
Russell, LeBron, Magic, Jordan and Duncan
or Russell, Lebron, Magic, Jordan and Bird




My team 1 would have better passing, rebounding defense and a better shooting percentage - even though they are not necessarily better shooters - because they'd consistently get much better shots.

My team 2 would have better passing, rebounding, defense and equal shooting

My team 3 would have better everything.

All 3 of my teams have players who would LOVE and THRIVE playing WITH EACHH OTHER. Any team with Kobe AND Melo would have motivational problems.

Your 5 is not even close, In my arrogant opinion. You keep thinking it's a coincidence that Melo never wins, even when playing with other stars. Melo has the unique talent of being able to score 45 while not helping his team win. Kobe can do this too but sometimes plays good team ball when he trusts his teammates. This year his team had no consistency even teamed with Chandler and Amare. In Denver his team went nowhere when he was teamed with Billups, Iverson and a deep bench. He has the worst playoff won/lost percentage of any player with over 45 playoff games. It can't be a total coincidence.

[Uli]

My team was Russell, Lebron, Magic, Jordan and Oscar OR
Russell, LeBron, Magic, Jordan and Duncan
or Russell, Lebron, Magic, Jordan and Bird




My team 1 would have better passing, rebounding defense and a better shooting percentage - even though they are not necessarily better shooters - because they'd consistently get much better shots.

My team 2 would have better passing, rebounding, defense and equal shooting

My team 3 would have better everything.

All 3 of my teams have players who would LOVE and THRIVE playing WITH EACHH OTHER. Any team with Kobe AND Melo would have motivational problems.

Your 5 is not even close, In my arrogant opinion. You keep thinking it's a coincidence that Melo never wins, even when playing with other stars. Melo has the unique talent of being able to score 45 while not helping his team win. Kobe can do this too but sometimes plays good team ball when he trusts his teammates. This year his team had no consistency even teamed with Chandler and Amare. In Denver his team went nowhere when he was teamed with Billups, Iverson and a deep bench. He has the worst playoff won/lost percentage of any player with over 45 playoff games. It can't be a total coincidence.

Ok, I give you Melo and replace him with Wade. They would kick all your teams asses.

[steve(thelil)]

Ok, I give you Melo and replace him with Wade. They would kick all your teams asses.

You're a one on one groupie. I thought you were deeper than that. (Actually I don't consider Wade merely a one on one player, by any means)

In all seriousness, do you consider Wade a better basketball player than Oscar Robertson? Roberston, like LeBron, Magic, Bird and Duncan could be the best player on the court on a day he WASN'T scoring. And like those 4, there were very few of those days.

[Uli]

You're a one on one groupie. I thought you were deeper than that. (Actually I don't consider Wade merely a one on one player, by any means)

In all seriousness, do you consider Wade a better basketball player than Oscar Robertson? Roberston, like LeBron, Magic, Bird and Duncan could be the best player on the court on a day he WASN'T scoring. And like those 4, there were very few of those days.

I have to admit that I never saw Robertson or Bird, Magic I saw at the end only, Of course I have seen highlites of their carreers. But I have seen Jordan and Lebron. You're rating Lebron higher than Jordan makes you a different groupie than me. While I aree that right now he is the best player in the NBA two years ago I would have sed Kobe and two years from now will probably say Durant. The one on one versus team aspect is interesting. Right now everybody favors San A in the Western final. All the experts say that they play the game as it is supposed to be played. One can not really say that of the Thunder yet I favor them admittedly mainly as a fanboy of Durant, Westbrook Harden and Ibaka and because I have not seen the Spurs enough, They looked good in their playoff games I have seen but they did not have the same kaliber opponents as OKC.Yes, they have many weapons but do they have the nukes and clusterbombs? btw I have not ruled out the Heat taking it all yet with the way Lebron and Wade played the last two games and with the possiblilty of Bosh coming back. Of cuorse they'd first have to beat boston with Rondo and Garnett and Pierce or the 76ers only if all that hapens will I let you compare Jordan and LeBron.

[Mike Schwartz]

Historically, the deeper a team goes in the playoffs, rotations get shorter.

I'm not sure we'll see this in the OKC/SA series.
Spurs are so deep that they may play it a bit differently, but coach Pop might keep the same for the older players not to pile on excessive minutes.

[Blue Train]

Top 5 once again by position in my lifetime.

Magic
Jordan
Shaq
Duncan
Lebron

Backups

Stockton
Kobe
Olajuwon
Mailman
Pippen



5 from those playing today

Rose
Kobe
Lebron
Durant
Howard

[Blue Train]

Kobe, Howard, Melo, Durant and Rondo would kick their ass.

The only player who isn't a headcase on that team would be Durant. Who would you pick to coach them and survive it?

[steve(thelil)]

I have to admit that I never saw Robertson or Bird, Magic I saw at the end only, Of course I have seen highlites of their carreers. But I have seen Jordan and Lebron. You're rating Lebron higher than Jordan makes you a different groupie than me. ......... ........ Of cuorse they'd first have to beat boston with Rondo and Garnett and Pierce or the 76ers only if all that hapens will I let you compare Jordan and LeBron.

I've never understood why in basketball people believe that rings means everything, regardless of how strong the team the player played on was. It's unlike baseball and football where people trust their eyes and the relevant stats more. I assume it's that it's more complicated than baseball (if not football) and harder for the average fan to appreciate what makes a team great. (On the other hand, if you ask 10 average football fans who the 5 greatest players were, 8 of them will only name offensive players, and none of those will be linemen.)

I haven't heard anyone claim that Ken Griffey Sr. or Tony Perez or Dave Concepcion were better players than Ted Williams because he has 2 titles and Williams none. People seem to understand that they also HAD EACH OTHER AND BENCH AND ROSE AND A GREAT PITCHING STAFF. And nobody ever contends that Pettitte was better than Koufax (4 titles to 2). Or that Troy Aikman (2 or 3 rings) is better than Dan Marino (none). I could go on and on.

Yet, despite the fact that Lebron has never had a team that would be considered even a contender without him and took a team of Cavs to the finals without any teammate who was even close to an All-Star , his failure to win any titles determines his level of greatness. Jordan didn't win a title his first 5 or 6 years (and played 2 years of college first.)

Was Oscar better when he won a title when he got to play with Kareem? NOBODY who saw him would say he wasn't somewhat slowed and clearly less effective than in his prime. Was Jordan better when he won his first title than he was the 2 or 3 years before that? Perhaps, but I doubt it. When he got his rings, did he have as teammates Pippen (top 50 ALL TIME NBA player) Horace Grant, Dennis Rodman (during those years the greatest rebounder ever and the best all around defender) Toni Kukoc, Bill Cartwright and Steve Kerr (greatest 3 point shooting percentage ever) and Ron Harper (best defensive guard in the league at the time) on his championship teams. Yes.

BTW, the year AFTER Jordan first retired, at the top of his game, did the Bulls have an excellent record and win a playoff round. Um, yes. They won 55 games WITHOUT HIM -2nd best in the league! -and lost to the KNICKS (w/Ewing, Oakley, Starks, Greg Anthony, Anthony Mason, Derek Harper, Rolando Blackman) in 7 games in the second round - and on a very controversial call. If i recall correctly, the Knicks lost in the finals in 7 in an incredibly contested finals series to the Olajuwan - Clyde Drexler- Sam Cassell - Robert Horry - Vernon Maxwell Rockets that year, and would have won it in 6 had Starks been able to hit a clutch shot - OR ANYTHING -in game 6.

Don't get me wrong. Jordan was one of a handful of greatest all around talents the game has seen, and probably the best clutch scorer. But my eyes tell me he never raised the level of his team as much as Lebron (or Magic or Duncan or Bird or Robertson) did, nor could he defend (including centers and point guards) rebound, pass or block shots like Lebron does. And if you don't trust my eyes (or yours) and don't want to rely solely on rings, look at stats, including the advanced stats. Nobody is close to the all around player that he is.

PS. When Ted Williams hit .406 but his team didn't get into the World Series, does that prove that none of his hits were clutch or in pressure situation? Does Bird NOT get credit for his accomplishments because he played with 2 other Hall of Famers? No.

Since Lebron blew his public perception/image with "the Decision" and the silly, meaningless "not 5, not six.. pep rally) it had become the rule among lightweighht hoop fans (who are the majority) that only his few negative events define him and all of his phenomenal accomplishments "mean nothing".

I am so fucking sick of reading that his year "means nothing" unless his team wins it all (I'm NOT saying Uli wrote that. But you read it in many places. Google it). Lebron was the undisputedly best player during the season and during the first 2 rounds of the playoffs, on a team with NO DEPTH that doesn't even make the playoffs without him. He ran the offense brilliantly and was the top vote getter on the All-Defense team. Do you know that the Heat's record sucked when LeBron was out and Wade played but was excellent in the MANY games where LeBron played and Wade was injured? . Why does that mean nothing if he doesn't win it all? Why is Ted Williams' 406 season considered the greatest offensive year ever if they didn't even get to the World Series?

[Blue Train]

But my eyes tell me he never raised the level of his team as much as Lebron (or Magic or Duncan or Bird or Robertson) did, not could he defend (including centers and point guards) rebound, pass or block shots like Lebron does. And if you don't trust my eyes (or yours) and don't want to rely solely on rings, look at stats, including the advanced stats. Nobody is close all around.

I agree with most of your post. Just wanted to comment on this part.


The problem with this is.....with Magic, Bird and the others on the team you don't need Jordan to make them better.

[steve(thelil)]

I agree with most of your post. Just wanted to comment on this part.


The problem with this is.....with Magic, Bird and the others on the team you don't need Jordan to make them better.

Agreed. I think Lebron, Magic and Bird could live with him on their team!!

[Blue Train]

Agreed. I think Magic and Bird could live with him on their team!!

Especially if they had a choice....they would pick him over Lebron. They would pick Kobe (and I don't even mean in his prime) over Lebron.

In the end, I think it's that which really hurts Lebron. That "the Greatest" while all admitting he's the best player overall right now and one of the best of all time....they wouldn't pick him for a Championship team. Until he shows he's giving everything (even if he loses) like they would when it really counts, I don't think that is changing.

[Uli]

I trust my eyes more than yours, thelil and advanced stats only to a certain degree. imho the argument that Lebron unlike Jordan or Kobe makes everybody around him better but that the people Jordan and Kobe had around them when they won their rings were better than those Lebron has around him stops making sense when he does not win a ring with Wade & Bosh around him.

[steve(thelil)]

Especially if they had a choice....they would pick him over Lebron. They would pick Kobe (and I don't even mean in his prime) over Lebron.

In the end, I think it's that which really hurts Lebron. That "the Greatest" while all admitting he's the best player overall right now and one of the best of all time....they wouldn't pick him for a Championship team. Until he shows he's giving everything (even if he loses) like they would when it really counts, I don't think that is changing.

I think you've drank the kool-aid. And couldn't be more wrong about Magic wanting to play with Kobe - even today - than Lebron. If you listen to what the greats say, it's that Lebron is the most talented guy around and that the rap he has is ridiculous. It isn't guys like Magic who spew the BS about him not really wanting it.

In fact, if you've been watching the playoffs this year, Magic and Barkley consistently say that Lebron is the greatest player in the world and that his reputation as anything else is ridiculous.. After the semis last year when he shut down Rose, Scotty Pippen said he was greater than Jordan because of his versatility. (And Scottie isvery familiar with MJ's game and history.) NBA insider and 12 year player Tim Legler said on his NBA podcastyesterday that he knows for a fact that Lebron's teammates love playing with him and Kobe's dislike playing with him.

And I think Lebron gives more than any player I've ever seen. He'll do whatever is necessary and guard whoever has to be stopped- regardless of position. And, day after day, game after game, he plays with more energy than anyone.

I think his legs were dead by the finals last year after guarding Rose -the league's MVP and quickest player in the league in the semis. He's failed in exactly 2 playoff games in all the years. That was one of them.

The other was when I'm convinced his elbow was killing him when they lost the final game against the Celtics. If you recall, 2 game before this awful playoff closer against the Celts, he didn't even shoot free throws with his right hand because his elbow was so bad. At the time people didn't see how he could even play the next game. But he played and had one of the best games ever, giving everything he got and beating the GREAT Celt team by himself. Instead of giving him credit for a masterful game while injured, people acted like his great performance was proof that he WASN'T injured and his injury was never mentioned again.

I'm totally convinced that he re-aggravated the elbow in that heroic win. In the last game, he didn't seem like he could even hold the ball. I'm totally convinced that it was either killing him or numb from being shot up.

When he has come up So Big So Many Times for years, it boggles my mind that his very few failures are seen as proof that he doesn't want to give enough. Total crap in my opinion. It's not like his (otherwise weak and/or thin) teams lose in the first round of the playoffs or that he doesn't lead them to many,many playoff wins.

By the way, if Lebron was playing on a team with Bynum. Gasol and Metta World Peace, he would be crucified if they didn't win it all. Kobe is considered a hero for losing while ball hogging. How does a guy handle the ball enough to score 42 and not have a single assist. I guess Lebron should rape someone and/or constantly demand a trade and publicly dis his teammates after not winning it all if he wants to get the respect Kobe gets.

By the way, in the 7 years Lebron was the greatest player on the planet with the Cavs, leading them into their greatest success and taking a team with a bunch of stiffs to the finals by singlehandedly beating a GREAT multiple-champion Piston teams in the playoffs, he never once demanded a trade or publicly insisted that he was leaving unless the team surrounded him with better players. By the way, does anyone talk about him singlehandedly beating the Pistons to get to the Finals as proof that he does want it and does play well under pressure? No.

[Mike Schwartz]

I trust my eyes more than yours, thelil and advanced stats only to a certain degree. imho the argument that Lebron unlike Jordan or Kobe makes everybody around him better but that the people Jordan and Kobe had around them when they won their rings were better than those Lebron has around him stops making sense when he does not win a ring with Wade & Bosh around him.

So.....in year 1 they go to the finals.
Terrible result

Take away the hooplah, *The Decision* and the (now) embarrassing launch of Miami's Big3, sounds like they're headed in the right direction, if they get the same chance any other retooled club might be given.

[Blue Train]

To be fair....the first year they were learning to adjust to each other and figure out who was Batman and who was Robin and they really had no one else on the team because of Bosh's idiotic signing and his doing his best to prove how bad of a contract it was on a daily basis....and still got to the Championship.

This year with the strike and no real camp and still a bunch of bums because of Bosh....but at least Wade accepting the Robin role and Bosh acting like he had a pulse helped.

Honestly, if they win a Championship it might be with the worst 3-12 bench since maybe the Bullets. It would definitely be the worst in my lifetime.

The only team that had a chance of being even worse was Cleveland in 2007.

[Uli]

So.....in year 1 they go to the finals.
Terrible result

Take away the hooplah, *The Decision* and the (now) embarrassing launch of Miami's Big3, sounds like they're headed in the right direction, if they get the same chance any other retooled club might be given.

We are talking alltime greats not just greats. I don't pay any attention to things outside the court, neither to the "Decision" nor what people hear from players who they like or don't like to play with or who is a headcase or not.

I love watching Barkley and his crew. yes i heard him frequently say that LeBron is the best player in the NBA now but I never herd him saying he is the best *ever*. And I am certainly not saying that he should never make those alltime best lists but if he does not win the ring this yea we should wait until next year until we crown him.

[Runawayjazz]

Magic, Jordan, Jabbar, Lebron, Duncan.

Magic, Jordan, Jabbar, Hakeem, Duncan.

Perhaps the possibility of a "twin towers" in which Hakeem replaces Lebron, and Lebron becomes the sixth man? Fundamentally sound basketball.

[Blue Train]

We are talking alltime greats not just greats. I don't pay any attention to things outside the court, neither to the "Decision" nor what people hear from players who they like or don't like to play with or who is a headcase or not.

I love watching Barkley and his crew. yes i heard him frequently say that LeBron is the best player in the NBA now but I never herd him saying he is the best *ever*. And I am certainly not saying that he should never make those alltime best lists but if he does not win the ring this yea we should wait until next year until we crown him.

I think if you can go Kool-Aid and add Melo to any best 5 list....he can go Kool-Aid on Lebron being the Messiah.

[Uli]

I think if you can go Kool-Aid and add Melo to any best 5 list....he can go Kool-Aid on Lebron being the Messiah.

I did not put Melo on a best 5 list. I put Melo on a team that I think would kick his teams ass. I would never say Melo is as good an allaround player as lebron. Melo's skills are much more specific with scoring, however I would not say that Melo is a defensive liability or that he can not play well with others.

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

Chemistry has to count for something, so although I wouldn't start them I like bringing in Malone and Stockton together off the bench

[PHILLYQ]

I did not put Melo on a best 5 list. I put Melo on a team that I think would kick his teams ass. I would never say Melo is as good an allaround player as lebron. Melo's skills are much more specific with scoring, however I would not say that Melo is a defensive liability or that he can not play well with others.

Watching the Knicks regularly, it looks to me that 'Melo plays a lot of 'matador' defense and shoots some serious dirty looks at his teammates when he doesn't get the ball frequently. IMHO, he's a selfish ball hog and the Knicks will never do that well as long as he's on the team.

[Mike Schwartz]

Late run at the end of the first half Celts up 8.

In this series an 8 point lead is like 18-20

[steve(thelil)]

Here's another argument for LeBron's greatness.

Over the last 5o years, athletes have gotten bigger, stronger, faster and better. In sports such as swimming and track, the results are objectively demonstrated and not even arguable. It's naieve, IMHO to think this hasn't happened in all sports.

When I was a kid in the early 60's, a 4 minute mile was a great accomplishment. The 4 rminute barrier wasn't reached until the 50's. Today, a 4 minute mile isn't even an accomplishment for ANY division 1 college track meet.

In the early 60's NBA , a 6'11' 230 pounder was a monster sized Center. Wilt, Bellamy and Thurmond were the only guys that size who could play a lick. Athletic guys that size were expected to be a defensive FORCE and a great shot blocker. Today, MANY athletic 7 foot, 250+ lb guys like Roy Hibbard, Brendan Haywood, DeAndre Jordan, Chris Kaman, Andrea Bargnani and Okafor are very athletic and fit guys and they DON'T dominate defensively.

Is this because these guys are less talented as a group than the skinny 6-9 Centers 50's and 60's? No. It's because today they are not trying to block shots by slowish 6-4' - 6/7 forwards and by 6'2' guards, as Centers did in the 60's - it's because many guards are 6'6- 6'8"" and strong and quick and many 6'9" and larger guys, are big strong quick small forwards. 6'10" and 7' guys are often power forwards who can handle the ball. (By contrast, Dave DeBushere was an all-time great power forward in the late 60's at 6'6" 215.)

AND if you watch NBA games on ESPN classic from the 60's - or even the 80's - they look like they are playing in slow motion compared to today's NBA. (for a similar experience, see also, tennis) Few of the NBA stars of the 60's would be great today. Wilt, Oscar, Russell, West and Havlicek are the only ones that come to mind.

Yet in today's game, one man dominates day after day, game after game, in all facets of the game. He's a 6'9'; 260+ guy who ballhandles and passes as well as 6'0" 180 lb wiz Bob Cousy, and gets rebounds like no guard ever. The same guy gets assists like no big man ever. In today's evolved, bigger stronger and faster game, he is the guy who Magic and Barkley consider, without doubt, the greatest basketball player in the world TODAY. (jordan's teammate Pippen called him the greatest ever). His plus/minus (which measures how well his TEAM plays when he's on the court) is the best, year after year - even on teams that are NOT that talented without him. His name rhymes with ShmaBron.


This guy has played 600+ NBA games with consistent, measurable success despite playing on otherwise weak teams. People can point to a handful of games where his play was disappointing, yet they say those few games define him. Use your eyes and your love of basketball to evaluate him. Watching him play often and still saying he isn't INCREDIBLE because his TEAM hasn't won any titles makes no more sense than listening to Hendrix play and say he isn't an INCREDIBLE electric guitarist because he sold fewer records than Led Zeppelin and.or stopped producing at age 27 when he died.

[Uli]

I now would like to give it up to the Phillies a team without any superstars who made the best out of their season.

I can't wait to see Lebron shine against Rondo and the veterans. I truly hope for him that one of these days he will win a championship and maybe the 2 more mvps to get him to the alltime level of Jordon.

[steve(thelil)]

I now would like to give it up to the Phillies a team without any superstars who made the best out of their season.

I can't wait to see Lebron shine against Rondo and the veterans. I truly hope for him that one of these days he will win a championship and maybe the 2 more mvps to get him to the alltime level of Jordon.

I was very impressed with the Celts' 4th quarter. Gamers all.

PS. MJ was GREAT, GREAT, GREAT. No doubt. BUT (I like a big but) If Lebron was on Jordan's team instead of Jordan during MJ's career, with the same teammates as MJ had. I can't imagine that he wouldn't have as many rings. The year MJ left, his team they had the 2nd best record in the NBA and came damned near winning it all without him. The year LeBron left the Cavs - after leading them to the best record in the NBA in his final season with them, the Cavs were one of the worst teams in history.

I guess without the titles, LeBron is only as great a basketball player as Ted Williams was as a hitter. Or, maybe better, since Ted never even played in "the Finals" (World Series)

[Uli]

Frankly, the baseball analogy sucks. Clearly in baseball it's much easier to capture individual greatness independent from team success, I never heard of a soccer player listed as the alltime greatest without at least winning a national championship or cup or two,

[Blue Train]

A translation of your posts.

First the Jazz version.

Bop is better than Dixieland. It's all about Free Improv. Jazz is dead, it's all EAI.

The movie version. Sound is better than silent film. Color is better than black and white.

I could do the same with Art and whatnot....but I am sure you get the point.

Did you actually read the Baylor link? He, Wilt and Robertson were easily the most athletic from the 60's. I can't think of a single other player that could even closely do what Baylor did that year. Maybe Wilt because he was so much more bigger, stronger and athletic than everyone else at the time.


Yeah, they're a lot more athletic now and sometime in the future someone will be using your exact same response (just like it was done before in pick a decade.) by saying the same thing about now.

They're also a lot worse fundamentally than in the past and it's getting worse with every decade. That you can blame on ESPN, Jordan's early dunking years and the three point shot, high school players, and one and dones. Just like in the NFL very few have proper tackling fundamentals and are more interested in the hits.

This has actually effected centers most of all. Most of them have sucked in my lifetime and have no clue how to play on the blocks. Can anyone imagine Shaq or Howard with actual fundamentals of being a center?

Using your logic, Russell would be a limited small forward today. Bird was borderline athletic, slow and could barely jump.


Followed by.

How many Championships would Wilt have won with the players Russell had? How many would Jordan won with those Bird or Magic played with? Since Barkley for whatever reason is brought into this....how many would he have won?

http://thechurchoflebron.tumblr.com/

[steve(thelil)]

Frankly, the baseball analogy sucks. Clearly in baseball it's much easier to capture individual greatness independent from team success, I never heard of a soccer player listed as the alltime greatest without at least winning a national championship or cup or two,

You make good points. Athletes play for titles. It is totally understandable and valid to consider this a measure of greatness.

It all depends how you look at it. I evaluate greatness in hoops in a way similar to how I evaluate greatness in art. For me, the great thing about basketball is the beauty it creates and the entertainment that it provides when played at the highest level. Not always, but often. So, to me, greatness is measured largely by how often a person can perform at the highest level and wow me with his effectiveness. By contrast, Some people consider titles as the only thing that matters.

To me, greatness is a guy who i can enjoy a thousand times for the athleticism, intelligence and effectiveness of his game. To me, it doesn't compute that a very few failures changes much. Nor can I understand how a very few failures can be seen to define him (Then again, I remember all of the now somehow forgotten amazing victories he has been responsible for. Many of them in the playoffs) But I totally understand how anyone would consider him greater if he won titles. I too would think he was greater if he had played even better in the past and won titles.

But again, titles depend on so much more than even a great player's play. If you want to talk about unfair analogies of comparing greatness based on titles in baseball and hoops, I think rating hoop players based on titles is similarly unfair. Jordan's titles were all on teams that would be a, at the very least, pretty good and deep teams without him. Again, the year after he left the Bulls came damned close to a title.

By contrast, LeBron had never, to this day, played on a team that would be any good without him. (Believe me, if they ended up on the same team in the usual way, NOBODY would be screaming it was "unfair" for Wade and Bosh to team up - without Lebron.) The year Lebron left the Cavs, his team of team of 7 years, they went from best record in the league to one of the worst ever.

I personally think it would be inconceivable that LeBron would NOT win with the likes of Pippen, Toni Kukc, Cartwright, Rodman, Horace Grant, Ron Harper and Steve Kerr as teammates. They've never played with a great assist man. With Lebron setting them up they might have been the best team ever. After all, Lebron's come close to winning titles a few times with teams NOT NEARLY as good.

[Blue Train]

I'd go with Magic, Jordan, Jabbar, Lebron, Duncan .

Someone could argue that there are better possible 5's - mayble. But it would be much harder to argue that any team of 5 OTHERS would beat them. .

Kobe, Howard, Melo, Durant and Rondo would kick their ass.

I did not put Melo on a best 5 list. I put Melo on a team that I think would kick his teams ass. I would never say Melo is as good an allaround player as lebron. Melo's skills are much more specific with scoring, however I would not say that Melo is a defensive liability or that he can not play well with others.

So one person puts together a list of his best ever 5....which includes 5 of the best of all time. Another pretty much agrees with it...and you respond with a list that not only includes Melo but Rondo and think they can kick their ass....and you think you're not going heavy on the Melo Kool-Aid?