Middle East--can someone answer these 15 questions?

[GregM]

1) If Palestinians want to live side-by-side with Israel, then why do all government logos and websites show Palestine encompassing all of Israel, with Israel nonexistent?

2) If a primary point of the road map is "confronting all those engaged in terror and dismantlement of terrorist capabilities and infrastructure," then why do the Palestinians demand that Israel release thousands of terrorists from prison, an item not even included in the road map? Instead, shouldn't the Palestinians be arresting terrorists themselves? And shouldn't we be outraged that the two suicide bombers who murdered 15 Israelis on Sept. 9, 2003 (Hillel Cafe and Tzrifin bus stop) were among a group of Palestinian prisoners released by Israel this year? (Jerusalem Post, Sept. 12, 2003)

3) If Israel is supposedly allowed to "take all necessary steps to defend its citizens," then why is Israel condemned for building bypass roads so drivers can avoid ambushes, condemned for building a fence to keep suicide bombers out, condemned for targeted killings of terrorist leaders, condemned for operating road blocks to screen for suicide bombers, condemned for clearing areas used for launching rockets, and condemned for keeping terrorists in jail? How exactly is Israel expected to defend itself?

4) When the PLO first demanded a state in 1964, it wanted every part of Israel except the West Bank and Gaza (which were then in the hands of Jordan and Egypt). Is it reasonable to assume that they now want only the West Bank and Gaza, or is that more likely a Trojan Horse-- as Palestinian leader Faisal al-Husseini described it in 2001 as a first step to destroy Israel.

5) Why is the targeted killing of terrorists and their supporters lauded when done by the United States in Afghanistan and Iraq, but not when done by Israel whose civilians face a daily threat of terror attacks?

6) Why has the United Nations passed far more condemnations against Israel than any other country -- including Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Chechnya, Saudi Arabia, Liberia, North Korea, and China combined -- while millions were massacred in these other places? And then how does the UN expect Israel to accept it as an impartial mediator?

7) Why -- if the Palestinian Authority has little freedom of speech and freedom of the press, little religious tolerance, is oppressive of Christians and other minorities, is corrupt at all levels of government, and is rife with vigilantism -- is the creation of a Palestinian state a favorite "liberal" cause?

8) Why -- after Yasser Arafat has proven for 40 years to be one of history's most incorrigible terrorists, while loyally backing dictators like Saddam Hussein -- does the European Union still strongly support Arafat's leadership?

9) Why does the media call it "terror" when Al Qaeda strikes at Western targets, but not when Hamas strikes at Israelis (or even American citizens in Israel)?

10) If the Palestinians truly want peace, why do their school textbooks vilify Israel and glorify suicide bombers? Why does the government-controlled TV station broadcast virulent anti-Semitic messages? Why do mosques regularly incite followers to jihad? Why are (UN supported) children's paramilitary training camps -- masquerading as summer camps -- named in honor of the most "successful" Palestinian terrorists (an indoctrination process that has resulted in 60-80% support for suicide bombings)?

11) Why does the world call the West Bank "occupied" if it never belonged to the Palestinians? [Jordan controlled the West Bank for 19 years after conquering it in a war of aggression. It previously belonged to the Mamelukes, the Crusaders, the Ottoman Turks, and then Britain.]

12) What other country would give control of its holiest spot (the Temple Mount) to another religion (which arrived 1,500 years later), and then permit them to systematically destroy ancient remains (to eliminate evidence of a 3,000-year-old Jewish presence) and allow that religious body to prohibit access to non-Muslims for three years?

13) Why does anyone doubt Israel's sincerity for peace, after offering 97 percent of the West Bank and Gaza in the Taba Talks 2001, and having given back the Sinai Peninsula to Egypt -- a territory three times the size of Israel constituting 91 percent of the territory Israel took control of in the 1967 war?

14) Why does the world demand the uprooting of Jewish settlements -- effectively making those areas "Judenrein" (empty of Jews)? Would anyone tolerate a similar form of ethnic cleansing whereby Israel does not allow Arabs to live in areas under Israeli control?

15) If, during Oslo, Israel gave tens of thousands of machine guns and 40% of the West Bank and Gaza to the Palestinians (giving them control over 97% of their population), in return for the promise that "all future disputes would be handled without violence," and instead Israel got 18,000 terrorist attacks that killed 845 and wounded 4,898 people, a collapsed economy, intolerable daily life for its citizens, and its holy sites desecrated, why is Israel again being asked to negotiate with that same Palestinian leadership, trust their future promises, and place its security in their hands?

[Clay Fink]

FYI:

http://www.likud.nl/press295.html

[GregM]

Can you answer any of the questions?

[Chris A]

This will answer some of them...

[Chris A]

Here's another answer...

[GregM]

That didn't answer anything except "where does Chris go to find anti-Israeli propoganda". Next?

[Chris A]

Originally posted by GregM
That didn't answer anything except "where does Chris go to find anti-Israeli propoganda (sic)". Next?

Are you suggesting that these photos are staged? Would you like to see more?

[al j]

I like how the first one is meant to look like the gun is aimed at the family. Clearly the kids are frightened of the gun, but why wouldn't they be?

Chris, I admire your consistent passion. But doublestandards.org???? Come on...

[Chris A]

So, Joe, if a Bush-oriented site puts up a photo of the twin towers burning are we to make light of it because the web mistress obviously has an agenda? Unless you think these photos were staged, what does it matter where they came from?

[Scott Dolan]

Originally posted by Chris A
Are you suggesting that these photos are staged?

Why not? You suggest that kind of thing all the time. But, we have learned two things here, Chris.

#1 - you have no clue what the answers to any of the questions are. Yet incredibly, you are one of the first and loudest voices when it comes to bashing Israel. I had assumed that since you are always so viciously attacking Israel, that you must have at least a passing knowledge of which you speak.


#2 - anything and everything that can be used by you to try and support your views is real, pure, and truthful. Anything that shows just how rediculous your views are fake, doctored, or just outright lies.

[Darryl G. Thomas]

I am no expert on the Middle East or the terms of the last agreement between Israel and the Palestinians that's obviously fallen apart. But I'll take a layman's guess on some of these questions.

1. The Palestinian elite does not accept the existence of Israel.
2. No political will and if the will existed, by what means? I keep hearing about the PLO's Security Force, but haven't the Israelis blown those cats up?
3. Maybe they're being condemned for treating all Palestinians as terrorists? Maybe because the security fence is gobbling up Palestinian land? Maybe it's the way the Israelis conduct themselves at all the checkpoints, roadblocks, etc?
4. As I stated in #1, it's possible that the Palestinian elite deosn't, and never will accept the existence of Israel.
5. Because of the "collateral damage"? You're trying to kill one dude and you take out an occupied apartment building doing it. Pretty sloppy and a callous disregard of life. Almost as callous as a suicide bomber in a cafe.
6. The UN is full of hypocrites.
7. Because the Palestinians were driven off their land when Israel was created (or am I wrong?).
8. Beats me. Didn't the Palestinians elect him as their leader awhile back? that doesn't stop him from being a murdering terrorist, hell even Hitler was elected. Maybe the Euros are being pragmatic. he's murdering scum, but he's the palestinian leader.
9. What does the US media call it? "Freedom strikes"? I'm not being sarcastic, but I can't recall the US media refering to any attack by Hamas in positive terms.
10. Because they hate the people who took their land. The conquered never loves the conquerer.
11. Because at any minute, upon any whim, Israel can roll into any Palestinian village, blow up a bunch of folks (guilty or innocent) bulldoze a bunch of cribs, and just generally run amok. Plus wasn't there a time when Gaza and the West Bank were outside of Israel's borders? If so, I guess they're occupied then.
12. A country that wasn't a theocracy.
13. Maybe they doubt Sharon's sincerity.
14. Because they're illegal? You'd assumed that if you felt that Israel's expansion beyond its '67 borders is illegal. Apparently, a big part of the world (that cares) feel the expansion is illegal.
15. Because if there are no negotiations the only options are endless war, or genocide.

[HenryMc]

Greg - You are the problem, You and people like you. People who 'list' supposed 'facts' filtered through their own ideology and belief system and who seek to ram these 'absolutisms'down other people's throats.

For everyone of your 15 points, someone could list one from the other perspective: curfews that are defacto internments; restricted zones that could be likened to the warsaw ghetto, the destruction of private property and the means to earn a living. The list goes on and on and on.

The sad thing is any criticism of the Israeli Government actions will see someone eventually bring up 'anti semetism' which then takes the debate to another level and assists in hiding the truth, yet again.

Instead of your tired diatribes and your list of ancient grievances why dont you try to do something positive for once. The world doesn't need any more hate filled postings on the net which can only contribute to the divisions in the middle east.

Me:
I'm sick of seeing dead dismembered bodies on TV whether they are Christian, Muslim and Jew
I'm sick of seeing people live in fear and without hope
I'm sick of seeing Politicians who's very existence and continued power comes from the chaos they should be addressing rather than fanning.
I'm sick of compounds, barbed wire, razer wire, AK47s and Tanks
I'm sick of short and selective memories

and I'm sick of posts like this that are mean in spirit and calculated to be controversial.

[Scott Dolan]

People who 'list' supposed 'facts' filtered through their own ideology and belief system and who seek to ram these 'absolutisms'down other people's throats.

Chris Albertson!

Actually Henry, how many people would this description NOT fit around here?

[HenryMc]

Actually Scott, It fits You, Me ......um ...sheessh you're right Everybody

(....lapsing into ..a rousing version of ..'c'mon people, lets get together, put a smile on your face and lets love one another right now....' )

[GregM]

Originally posted by HenryMc
Greg - You are the problem, You and people like you.

I have never so much as touched a gun in my life; I am not religious. I am responsible for developing methods to detect ions such as bromate and perchlorate and other contaminants in water; characterizing proteins, carbohydrates and glycosamines in food samples; determining metal ion buildup in plating baths; amine cleanup processes in the petrochemical industry; and other techniques.

Your inability to understand the problems in the middle east and the way you lash out at me indicates you have a mental problem. If you stand for progress, tolerance, technology and peace, you stand for Israel. If you stand for religious war, incitement, suicide, death and destruction, you stand against Israel.

People who 'list' supposed 'facts' filtered through their own ideology and belief system and who seek to ram these 'absolutisms'down other people's throats.

I posted 15 questions. If you haven't a clue how to answer them, don't blame me.

For everyone of your 15 points, someone could list one from the other perspective: curfews that are defacto internments; restricted zones that could be likened to the warsaw ghetto, the destruction of private property and the means to earn a living. The list goes on and on and on.

So it's up to you to put your brain (if you have one) to work and determine which points are valid and which points are bullshit; to evaluate the cause and effect relationship of Palestinian violence and Israel's push for security; to see that Palestinian children are being educated to hate Jews, while valid Arab history is a part of school curriculum in Israel.

The sad thing is any criticism of the Israeli Government actions will see someone eventually bring up 'anti semetism' which then takes the debate to another level and assists in hiding the truth, yet again.

So far I haven't heard much in the way of valid criticism of the Israeli government. I heard one asshole say that Israel and its people are "shitty" and "little". I heard you accuse me of causing the violence in the region. I've heard Chris say that the wall and other Israeli policies are apartheid without admitting that Arabs in Israel have the right to vote and are this very moment holding seats on the Knesset.

Instead of your tired diatribes and your list of ancient grievances why dont you try to do something positive for once. The world doesn't need any more hate filled postings on the net which can only contribute to the divisions in the middle east.

You're a hypocrit. Your post is far more hate-filled than most here, and its effect on the middle east is NIL. The thing that's contributing most to divisions in the Middle East is jihad and arab religious intolerance.

Me:
I'm sick of seeing dead dismembered bodies on TV whether they are Christian, Muslim and Jew
I'm sick of seeing people live in fear and without hope
I'm sick of seeing Politicians who's very existence and continued power comes from the chaos they should be addressing rather than fanning.
I'm sick of compounds, barbed wire, razer wire, AK47s and Tanks
I'm sick of short and selective memories and I'm sick of posts like this that are mean in spirit and calculated to be controversial.

Well aren't you the bleeding-heart. If you're so sick of it, get lost. Turn off your TV. Close whatever stilted vision remains in your eyeballs. These problems are not going to go away by turning a blind eye to them, and I for one will go on discussing them. You don't like it? TOUGH!

[GregM]

Valiant attempt, Darryl, overall you got a "D".

[Cem]

Originally posted by GregM
The thing that's contributing most to divisions in the Middle East is jihad and arab religious intolerance.

If you're so damn sure, what do you suggest happens; perhaps, Palestinian genocide? Unless you have some constructive ways of assessing the situation, why don't you shut the fuck up?!

[GregM]

Originally posted by Cem
If you're so damn sure, what do you suggest happens; perhaps, Palestinian genocide? Unless you have some constructive ways of assessing the situation, why don't you shut the fuck up?!

The long term solution is progressive education in the Muslim world. The short term solution is finish the wall.

[al j]

Originally posted by Chris A
So, Joe, if a Bush-oriented site puts up a photo of the twin towers burning are we to make light of it because the web mistress obviously has an agenda? Unless you think these photos were staged, what does it matter where they came from?

I'd first have to ask, what does Bush-oriented mean? If it means Bush-oriented and Ashcroft-adoring, then I'd probably never see it.

No, I do not think they are staged. They are obviously real photos. But not having the energy to find their place and context on the site, I can only assume the first photo is being used to shock. It can be looked at in a number of contexts, and we can debate them all day long. There is nothing definitive about it though. And considering the source...a nice way to draw attention to yourself, if you can find readers gullible enough to bite.

If you believe that the attacks on the financial and military centers of the US were attacks on “our freedom and democracy” then I suggest that you go back to watching the Western television channels and reading the New York Times, for the information in the following links may disturb you.

[HenryMc]

GregM

I looked at your profile...most of your posts are about Palestine/Israel thing so it's obviously your thing man! or else the name is a cover for someone else who doesn't want to use a better known name

So far as never having touched a gun in your life, so what, from what you have posted you're painted yourself as one of those who stand at the sides and encourages other to fire the guns .....the logical end product of such ideology

and I love the way people of your 'ilk' , when questioned on their motives always resort to personal abuse like 'if you have a brain..' .and I have 'a mental problem' and I'm a 'hypocrit' whose posts are 'hate-filled'

.

I love it Mate
It tells me so much - about you

Man, I want peace - I dont want people , and yes this is you, listing endless atrocities and points and historical circumstances for whatever reason - for whatever side because that begets more of the same.

Why did you post your initial post - tell me what was your initial motivation???

[Clay Fink]

Originally posted by GregM
I am responsible for developing methods to detect ions such as bromate and perchlorate and other contaminants in water; characterizing proteins, carbohydrates and glycosamines in food samples; determining metal ion buildup in plating baths; amine cleanup processes in the petrochemical industry; and other techniques.

Sounds like a GREAT job! Especially since it gives you ample free time to post stuff.

[GregM]

What do you do that allows you ample free time to post stuff?

[Salvador Dali Lama]

these are all very, very good questions.

damned important questions that are widely ignored.

but two wrongs still don't make a right. If they Israelis are going to be the good guys in this conflict, they need to be the good guys. building berlin walls and unchecked land encroachments are not the calling cards of "the good guys." That shit needs to stop. The worst thing you can ever do is make your enemy righteous through your own behavior.

[Darryl G. Thomas]

I only got a "D"? I really put some work into that post.

[Cem]

Originally posted by GregM
The long term solution is progressive education in the Muslim world. The short term solution is finish the wall.

Statements like those make me think that you are motivated by fear, anger, and hatred. For a seemingly educated individual, you make some blanket statements that show your blindness and lack of humanity in observing the situation. These blanket statements are in no way constructive and were not what I had in mind when I asked for "constructive ways of assessing the situation". I, certainly, didn't mean it literally as you suggest in building a wall. I cannot accept your "long term solution" of "progressive education in the Muslim world", as it implies a group of people that could benefit from tutelage. Those of us living in North America have no right to pass that kind of judgement on groups of people with that kind of history. In fact, even most Israeli Jews and other Jews that I've known never claimed to feel so self-righteous about the situation as you seem to. Your use of the word "solution" actually gives me the chills and reminds me of the contradiction between the conveniently short memory of the Israeli gov't, their attempt to snuff out Palestinians and the history of the Jewish people.

[RBS]

The whole situation over there sucks. Both sides are stubborn.

I don't know if the Palestinians ever really had their own homeland. I believe that they were actually nomadic Arabs, who actually were kicked out of several countries, Jordan and Egypt included.

Israel was known as "Transjordan" when the English and others let the Holocaust refugees settle there. Menachem Begin and others were known as "freedom fighters," but others might choose to call them a lot less than that.

At this point, Israel is here to stay. It ain't goin' nowhere. I think most people on both sides want peace, but it's unfortunate that the ones on the extreme end, i.e. the suicide bombers, the extreme right wing of the Israeli Government, etc. are so fear-filled and intransigent that they are unwilling to lose their stubborness and actually reach a hand out to the other side and compromise.

What's even worse it that these extreme sides are in the minority, but they destroy the hope of peace for all the others.

[GregM]

Originally posted by Cem
[B]Statements like those make me think that you are motivated by fear, anger, and hatred.

And posts like yours make me think that you are motivated by political correctness that prevents you from being honest about current events.

For a seemingly educated individual, you make some blanket statements that show your blindness and lack of humanity in observing the situation. These blanket statements are in no way constructive and were not what I had in mind when I asked for "constructive ways of assessing the situation".

Oh, did I lead you to think I care what you had in mind? if so, I apologize. I don't care what you had in mind. My assessment of the situation remains valid, and yours remains invalid.

I, certainly, didn't mean it literally as you suggest in building a wall.

Of course not. Why would you want to implement a proactive policy that will save hundreds of lives?

I cannot accept your "long term solution" of "progressive education in the Muslim world", as it implies a group of people that could benefit from tutelage.

Tutelage? How about basic religious tolerance for starters. If it rocks your little politically correct world to suggest a huge portion of the Muslim world could benefit from progressive education I feel sorry for you.

Your use of the word "solution" actually gives me the chills and reminds me of the contradiction between the conveniently short memory of the Israeli gov't, their attempt to snuff out Palestinians and the history of the Jewish people.

You're the one who asked for a solution, you used the word. Point your razor sharp intellect at yourself, why dontcha?

[Scott Dolan]

I feel like such an amatuer.

This guy is good, REALLY good.

No wonder Chris hates him.

Suddenly, I'm loving life here at the Corner again!!!

[Darryl G. Thomas]

I'm still pissed about the "D". I devoted my lunchtime to that post.

Actually, I should have written 15 "I don't knows" because a requirement for the "correct" answers would be ESP.

Here is "the" fact. Too many people are dying on both sides. And I'm not giving any more value to Israeli lives over Palestinian, or vice versa. In the end, whether you got blown up by a suicide bomber or a tank shell doesn't really matter much. I know the rationale, the Israelis were going after military targets. But as I said before, there's that pesky question about collateral damage.

And how are we to "educate" the Muslims? At the end of the barrel of a gun? In little ghettos in Gaza? How exactly does that work and what is the curriculum?

Here is what I'd like to see: Israel withdraw to it's pre '67 borders and close out all the settlements in the Occupied Territories and then work from there. Yeah, I know, Israel "loses" something without gaining anything. But Israel may be more secure because they wouldn't have to harbor the expense of protecting every Mom and Pop settlement in the West Bank and maybe the level of violence will decrease. I know I'll get an "F" for that answer but at least it's a start.

[Cem]

I did not use the word solution, as I'm not anywhere near as arrogant to suggest that I could supply such a simplistic scenario. You can hide behind a veil of 'open-minded Greg and pc Cem', but it's not about being right, it's justice that needs to be addressed. It's not really possible to have a discussion with you, as you don't seem open to possibilities, unless they fit your agenda. I don't post in these thread usually, because I get irate. You are so blind in your assessment of things, that I'm past that stage. I'm simply baffled by your arrogance.