10 Year Anniversary of Kurt Cobain Dorkicide

[Monte Smith]

Guy made good music, for a idjit.

[moneyp]

You know what gets me? After a celebrity overdoses or offs themselves, you have a bunch of friends and relatives coming out of the woodwork and saying that so-and-so was depressed for a long time or they had a serious problem with drugs or whatever.

Okay, so where the fuck were you people before this person croaked?

[Monte Smith]

Yeah, but if you look at Courtney Love now, you gotta admit that Kurt made the right choice.

I don't get rock and roll. Kiddie music. I don't get "alternative." It's the dumbest thing on the planet, as far as I am concerned. Kids wrapping their heads in music like it matters a damn, the kind of music they play or listen to. Jesus Christ. I think hippies were a pretty dumb generation but the Cobains are dumbfucks further on, what with their idea that music is a purity untouched by corporate machinations and therefore I need to put buckshot in my mouth before I sell out.

Duh. I'm not talking about "jazz music," obviously.

You know what matters in this world? Making something of yourself that doesn't impress fourteen year old girls. Making something of yourself that impresses more than yourself while you are high.

I mean nothing fucking matters in this world, but some of it matters a lot more than other bullshit. And the Cobain fake art types trod on my last nad. Liked his songs, disrepect him utterly. Hate teen spirit and ironic appeal there to.

[bobetterblues]

You know what I hate?

Soulless people who never had a bad thing happen to them in their life, and can't for the life of them understand where people who suffer are coming from. People who can't appreciate a good lyric and or emotion coming from any kind of music, because they shroud themselves in convention, fear, and only things that they know. People who can't seem to have compassion and or the openess to understand where all different types of people are coming from. People who don't have the ability to loosen up. Control freaks. People who live by what their lame logic and convention tells them, instead of their heart and emotion. Who am I kidding, people like that have very little emotion.

I can't stand convention and the people who are afraid to be different. I really can't stand people who decide they hate something with a passion just because they don't understand it, or can't feel it.

Those are the people that are the opposite of an artist. The anti-artist. The anti-beautiful.

[john williams]

Well said Bo!

I really liked "In Utero" a lot. Those who hate Kurt because he committed suicide are just as bad as those who deified him for the same reason. I thought Nevermind was a bit overrated at the time but "In Utero" is pretty terrific and very heavy. I see the two albums Joy Division released similarly. "Unknown Pleasures" was the crowd pleaser but "Closer" was the masterpiece. Nirvana never changed my life or anything but they sure hold a significant position in the rock pantheon.

I don't particularly like the term 'alternative' either - 'Alternative' to what? That doesn't mean that all the music labelled 'alternative' is bad though.

[Monte Smith]

You know what I hate?

Soulless people who never had a bad thing happen to them in their life, and can't for the life of them understand where people who suffer are coming from. People who can't appreciate a good lyric and or emotion coming from any kind of music, because they shroud themselves in convention, fear, and only things that they know. People who can't seem to have compassion and or the openess to understand where all different types of people are coming from. People who don't have the ability to loosen up. Control freaks. People who live by what their lame logic and convention tells them, instead of their heart and emotion. Who am I kidding, people like that have very little emotion.

I can't stand convention and the people who are afraid to be different. I really can't stand people who decide they hate something with a passion just because they don't understand it, or can't feel it.

Those are the people that are the opposite of an artist. The anti-artist. The anti-beautiful.

I'm witcha Bo, only:

You know what I fucking hate? People who shoot themselves in their head because they can't understand convention. People who shroud themselves in mortality because they don't know how to deal with life in sunshine or going door to door talking to real people or buying Girl Scout Cookies or taking in a movie. Those who have no compassion for their child or their wife and think that if they can't channel the wonderful groovy sheer genius of America thru guitar chords or paint than it's all rot and everything should just burn and go to hell. And the wheezebags who agree with them and think that life is a color stick of artistic candy.

I can't stand the people who are afraid unless they are different. I really can't stand people who decide they hate something with a passion just because they choose to misunderstand it, or they resent it, or feel like they are better.

Those are the people that are the sub-artist.

[jesus marion joseph]

I hate when my wife leaves traces of toothpaste in the bathroom sink...........

[Scott Dolan]

Yeah, but if you look at Courtney Love now, you gotta admit that Kurt made the right choice.

Oh my! Monte is right.

So long Kurt, you silly bastard. The rest of us are strong enough to deal with this reality.

How a slobbering mess can take the easy way out and convince hordes of drooling slackers that he is both a god and a martyr is beyond me.

[jesus marion joseph]

How a slobbering mess can take the easy way out and convince hordes of drooling slackers that he is both a god and a martyr is beyond me.

It's the "artistry", stupid!!

[crawjo]

I'm witcha Bo, only:

You know what I fucking hate? People who shoot themselves in their head because they can't understand convention. People who shroud themselves in mortality because they don't know how to deal with life in sunshine or going door to door talking to real people or buying Girl Scout Cookies or taking in a movie. Those who have no compassion for their child or their wife and think that if they can't channel the wonderful groovy sheer genius of America thru guitar chords or paint than it's all rot and everything should just burn and go to hell. And the wheezebags who agree with them and think that life is a color stick of artistic candy.

I can't stand the people who are afraid unless they are different. I really can't stand people who decide they hate something with a passion just because they choose to misunderstand it, or they resent it, or feel like they are better.

Those are the people that are the sub-artist.

Uhm, I don't know anything about Cobain, really, other than I don't particularly like his music. But did he really kill himself because he was afraid of becoming a sell-out? Seems to me, without knowing any of the particulars or having read any of the stuff written about him, that he was probably suffering from some sort of illness.

But Monte, if someone is afraid unless they are different, then it seems to me they have a low sense of self-worth. You can't stand people like that? I don't know, that seems kind of cruel to me. It's one thing not to be able to stand the halo that some try to place around Cobain, it's another thing not to be able to stand the forces that caused him to blow his brains out.

[Noj]

Hard to believe it has been ten years.

Suicide? On top of the game with oodles of money? Man, did Kurt blow it!

What a quitter. He wrote a handful of cool songs, that's no excuse to cave in. Suicide is such a cop out. He should have rode out the storm. I guess heroin wears its users thin. No matter what there is more strength in facing life than deciding to throw in the towel.

[Scott Dolan]

Well said Mr. Noj.

And I still just love it when Crawjo gets all huggy feely!

[Scott Dolan]

It's the "artistry", stupid!!

Thank you James!!!

[bobetterblues]

I'm witcha Bo, only:

You know what I fucking hate? People who shoot themselves in their head because they can't understand convention. People who shroud themselves in mortality because they don't know how to deal with life in sunshine or going door to door talking to real people or buying Girl Scout Cookies or taking in a movie. Those who have no compassion for their child or their wife and think that if they can't channel the wonderful groovy sheer genius of America thru guitar chords or paint than it's all rot and everything should just burn and go to hell. And the wheezebags who agree with them and think that life is a color stick of artistic candy.

I can't stand the people who are afraid unless they are different. I really can't stand people who decide they hate something with a passion just because they choose to misunderstand it, or they resent it, or feel like they are better.

Those are the people that are the sub-artist.

First of all, that's not why Kurt shot himself. If you knew anything about depression and drug addiction, and chronic stomach pains you wouldn't write ignoric blather like that. But I should know you better by now.

Secondly, have you ever met someone who was afraid because they were different? I haven't. More blather.

Aren't you the one who started this thread dissing Kurt Cobain for no apparent reason? You insult millions of adult fans, most of them over the age of 30 for liking Kurt Cobain by calling it music for children. Also misrepresenting him as killing himself because he didn't want to sell out? Everything you've practically said about Kurt Cobain is wrong, but you still spew at the mouth like always.

How is it so comfortable for you to be ignorant?

Monte,

On a scale of 1 to 10 of creativity, Coltrane and Mozart being a 10 and Dick Cheney and Gomer Pile being a 1, where would you rate yourself?

"What a quitter. He wrote a handful of cool songs, that's no excuse to cave in. Suicide is such a cop out. He should have rode out the storm. I guess heroin wears its users thin. No matter what there is more strength in facing life than deciding to throw in the towel."

Why do so many people see life as a game? No offense Noj but it was his life and nobody here knows the truth or what it was like to be him. Secondly, what's so bad about suicide anyway?

Certainly life wouldn't be very precious if people like Monte were the only ones alive and in charge, because we'd all probably kill ourselves too.

[Ron Thorne]

bbb, somehow I don't think your post #4 was entirely understood as you meant it. Maybe that's just me, however.

[Salvador Dali Lama]

hey fuckers, it was murder not suicide!

I kinda actually a little bit believe that. But mostly, I don't care.

[bobetterblues]

bbb, somehow I don't think your post #4 was entirely understood as you meant it. Maybe that's just me, however.

Of course it was just you Ron!

[crawjo]

"What's so bad about suicide anyway?"

Tough question. But it's better than Monte's simplistic analysis, in which he suggests that Cobain killed himself because he was afraid of selling out. Speaking from personal experience, I can say that when someone contemplates suicide, it's not for reasons that facile. It has to do with a low sense of self-esteem, a feeling of entrapment. Sometimes suicide looks like the best option. Depression is a sickness, a very powerful one because it attacks the way the mind perceives the self. In a moment of panic and despair, the individual is bound to do anything. On 9/11, why did those people jump out of the towers? To get away from the flames. It's an inexact analogy on a number of levels, but the mechanics of it are similar when it comes to suicide. The person who commits suicide chooses death because to go on living is, for one reason or another, to awful to contemplate or to bear.

Monte, would you start such a thread on the anniversary of J.J. Johnson's death? There's another musician who killed himself. You wouldn't, though, because you probably respect J.J. Johnson, and if you know anything about his life at that point, you might have a window into what he was feeling. But I guess Cobain is different. He was young, and so he had a lot of young fans, and so it is easier to treat his death as a toy for your own amusement, or as an easy way to bash a style of music that you don't like.

Here's a different question. If depression is an illness, why is so much stigma attached to it? Millions of Americans suffer from it, but no one wants to talk about it, or ever admit to having it.

[Jon Abbey]

Here's a different question. If depression is an illness, why is so much stigma attached to it? Millions of Americans suffer from it, but no one wants to talk about it, or ever admit to having it.

Elizabeth Wurtzel has made a career talking about her depression, and her Prozac Nation book was even made into a big Hollywood movie. William Styron's Darkness Visible was also very high-profile when it came out, very good book (I didn't read the Wurtzel).

but in general, I think it's because as opposed to most other diseases which you either have or you don't, there are many degrees of depression before you get to clinically depressed, and a lot of people who aren't clinically depressed don't fully understand how huge the difference is between what they feel when things are going bad and full-fledged clinical depression and they think to themselves (at least in part) "yeah, yeah, life's hard for everyone, stop whining". there should probably be a different word entirely for clinical depression (maybe there is?), that might help.

[Ron Thorne]

"What's so bad about suicide anyway?"

Tough question. But it's better than Monte's simplistic analysis, in which he suggests that Cobain killed himself because he was afraid of selling out.

Monte, would you start such a thread on the anniversary of J.J. Johnson's death? There's another musician who killed himself. You wouldn't, though, because you probably respect J.J. Johnson, and if you know anything about his life at that point, you might have a window into what he was feeling. But I guess Cobain is different. He was young, and so he had a lot of young fans, and so it is easier to treat his death as a toy for your own amusement, or as an easy way to bash a style of music that you don't like.

Simplistic, indeed!

I'm no fan of Kurt Cobain, but the basis for this thread is tasteless and clueless in my estimation. With all due respect, your post #1 says far about you than anyone, Monte.

Frankly, I'd be very surprised to learn that Monte has ever heard J. J. Johnson, has any in his collection, or was aware of J. J.'s health near the end of his long, productive life.

Artist. Teacher. Innovator. Gentleman.

There is not a trombonist alive who has not been influenced by J. J. Johnson's sound, his message, or his love for the trombone. On this, the occasion of his passing, all of our thoughts, prayers, and love are with those who were closest to him.

We also take this opportunity to joyously celebrate the man. His spirit, and the music it created, will be heard as long as we have ears to hear, and a soul to recognize the truth he spoke through the bell.

In honor of J. J., a memorial scholarship has been created. Anyone wishing to contribute may do so at the following address:

J.J. Johnson Memorial Scholarship Fund
c/o Bank One
6881 Michigan Road, Northwest
Indianapolis, IN 46268

[moneyp]

Clinical depression is an illness like any other. It's silly to say that Kurt Cobain was stupid for being sick, but sick is what he was, and he probably would have wound up topping himself whether he played rock music or classical music. A friend of mine rode that rail for almost a year, had to be taken to the emergency room three times. It's a miracle that she's still around today. One of my childhood friends, the guy who put together the first band I was in, unfortunately succeeded. So did a college mate of mine, and in both cases I never saw it coming.

[bobetterblues]

Clinical depression is an illness like any other. It's silly to say that Kurt Cobain was stupid for being sick, but sick is what he was, and he probably would have wound up topping himself whether he played rock music or classical music. A friend of mine rode that rail for almost a year, had to be taken to the emergency room three times. It's a miracle that she's still around today. One of my childhood friends, the guy who put together the first band I was in, unfortunately succeeded. So did a college mate of mine, and in both cases I never saw it coming.

Thank you Ron Thorne, Thank You Mone Peterson, and thank you Crawjo..Thank you Jon Abbey...Thank you, thank you, thank you....

[Tom Storer]

You know what I hate? I hate it when people use the relative pronoun that when the personal pronoun who is called for.

bobetterblues: Those are the people that are the opposite of an artist.

Monte: Those are the people that are the sub-artist.

Hoping his attention to grammar will impress any fourteen-year-old girls out there,

Tom

[Dr Dave]

Alls I know is "Smells Like Teen Spirit" is still electrifying, ten years on.

[Slurpy]

I thought the chronic stomach pain was the main cause of his depression? Does anyone know? If so, then I agree with Bo, etc. here because as one who has to battle chronic pain myself, I can only say it's no picnic. Sometimes you have to live with pain.....or not. What do you do? Self medicate? That can sometimes suffice, but then you have to deal with the underlying stigma that can cause. Funny how people can sympathise if you're hooked up to a morphine drip, but if you smoke a joint, you're looked at like a criminal. Depression is almost a natural result. It aint easy folks.

[crawjo]

Simplistic, indeed!

I'm no fan of Kurt Cobain, but the basis for this thread is tasteless and clueless in my estimation. With all due respect, your post #1 says far about you than anyone, Monte.

Frankly, I'd be very surprised to learn that Monte has ever heard J. J. Johnson, has any in his collection, or was aware of J. J.'s health near the end of his long, productive life.
There is not a trombonist alive who has not been influenced by J. J. Johnson's sound, his message, or his love for the trombone. On this, the occasion of his passing, all of our thoughts, prayers, and love are with those who were closest to him.

We also take this opportunity to joyously celebrate the man. His spirit, and the music it created, will be heard as long as we have ears to hear, and a soul to recognize the truth he spoke through the bell.

In honor of J. J., a memorial scholarship has been created. Anyone wishing to contribute may do so at the following address:

J.J. Johnson Memorial Scholarship Fund
c/o Bank One
6881 Michigan Road, Northwest
Indianapolis, IN 46268

Calling a suicide a "dorkocide" is so fucking inappropriate that I don't even know where to start. Last night it just kind of irritated me, today it is pissing me off.

Well here, okay, I'll say it. I've been under treatment for clinical depression for the past few years. I take a handful of pills every day just to keep my head above water. That's just the way it is. It's a real illness, and I'll be damned if anybody would ever kill themselves because they were afraid of "selling out." I don't say that for any other reason than I have a good idea about what full-blown depression feels like, and I can guarantee you that Cobain was feeling a world of hurt that day he decided to end his life. Like I said before, I'm not a fan of his music. I could care less about his music. But using somebody's suicide to trash their music and their fans? That is incredibly immature. Monte's first posts on this thread attack the Cobain cult of teenage followers, but his rantings read like those of a 15-year-old head-banger who is upset that Nirvana was at one point more popular than Metallica. Grow up.

[Pete C]

When Monte decides to put an end to his dorky life I promise to come up with a better term than dorkicide.

[Gentle Giant]

I didn't really think about the Seattle scene when it became big in the 90s because, after all, the younger folks I work with all know me as "That '70s Guy." I mean, I could hear stuff in Smells Like Teen Spirit that I could connect to from a Sabbath perspective (apparently it was also highly influenced by Boston's More Than a Feeling) but I didn't have a sense of what it was about or where it was coming from lyrically or attitudinally. But a very attractive woman told me when he died that he was a genius and so as not create a barrier between us I agreed to keep an open mind. Then I heard Tori Amos' version of the song, which is done very slowly and quietly and I was able to hear the lyrics and get a feel for the mood, and I had to say I was impressed. Not A Love Supreme kind of impressed, but I was able to appreciate that these guys had a style and a point of view, and weren't just trying to be the flavor of the month.

Then I read an article about Eddie Vedder and his being raised in a broken home and this generation of kids whose parents were flaky Woodstock survivors turned soulless yuppies and while I don't love so-called grunge music, I accepted the scene (and I do enjoy wearing flannel shirts!). I was also highly impressed by Vedder's performance of Masters of War during the Bob Dylan 30th Anniversary Celebration concert, immortalized on CD and video. Here's a guy who knew the meaning of what he was doing.

In all likelihood, Cobain's suicide was preventable, as was Chicago's Terry Kath's, and the death of Hendrix. But rock star entourages aren't generally comprised of caring, compassionate people with the wisdom and influence required to keep the stars in good mental and physical health.

So it's 10 years since he died and yeah, it's a tragedy when anyone young dies, whether they're an artist or not. But just like we'll never know what Buddy Holly would've done, we also don't know what Cobain could have accomplished had he kept his head together (no pun intended). His own mother, aware of his suicidality, warned him not to "join the Stupid Club." Whether he was joining a club or bailing from one, it was his decision and it's regrettable. Ten years on, I hope he's at peace.

[cookie]

I don't know much about Cobain and he's not a huge personal icon, but I really fuckin' hate it when people make light of depression and suicide. Unless you've been at that particular door, you don't know shit.

I can't stand people who view suicide as this selfish act that could be prevented if the person "just pulled themselves together." It's not that fuckin' easy and, yes, I *have* stood there. It's a most anguishing place to be.

I clicked on this thread just because the title offended me and I wanted to speak up about it. Suicide is tragic no matter who does it and what anyone thinks of the person.

[Dr Dave]

When Monte offs himself, it will be "Smirkicide."