Penguin Guide 7th Ed.

[Enforcer]

I haven't bought a Penguin in a while. I've missed at least one or two editions. I never get too wrapped up in star ratings and such. On the other hand, they are terrific writers, are afraid of nothing (they're open to any and all kinds of jazz) and they bring works to my attention that I might otherwise have never heard of. Also, I find them hilariously funny.

[Dan G]

They don't list PP. They put Swinging the Bim in the Core Collection....

(And I don't think Elf was ever "crowned" though they highly praise it.)

You're probably right. Now that I think about it, I think they said something like it was close to getting the crown, but not quite.

[bostontricky]

Hey, who are you calling a geek?

Penguin Jazz Guide - The Crowns
(* - denotes "Core Collection" CD)

Jan Allan – 70
Amalgam - Prayer for Peace
Louis Armstrong - The Hot Fives And Hot Sevens (JSP) (4 CD)
*Louis Armstrong - Complete Hot Fives and Hot Sevens (Columbia) (4 CD)
*Albert Ayler - Spiritual Unity
*Count Basie - The Original American Decca Recordings (3 CD)
Art Blakey - Art Blakey's Jazz Messengers With Thelonious Monk
*Arthur Blythe - Lenox Avenue Breakdown
Anthony Braxton - For Alto
*Peter Brötzmann - Machine Gun
Oscar "Papa" Celestin / Sam Morgan - Recorded in New Orleans 1925-1928
June Christy - Something Cool: The Complete Mono and Stereo Versions
*Ornette Coleman - Beauty Is A Rare Thing: The Complete Atlantic Recordings (6 CD)
*John Coltrane - A Love Supreme
John Coltrane - Ascension
Miles Davis & Gil Evans - The Complete Columbia Studio Sessions (6 CD)
*Miles Davis - Kind Of Blue
Miles Davis - The Complete Live At The Plugged Nickel (8 CD)
*Eric Dolphy - Out To Lunch
Duke Ellington - The Duke at Fargo 1940 (2 CD)
Bill Evans - Sunday At The Village Vanguard
Bill Evans - Waltz For Debby
Art Farmer - Blame It On My Youth
Trio Ganelin - Ancora Da Capo
*Charles Gayle - Touchin' On Trane
Stan Getz - The Complete Roost Recordings (3 CD)
Dizzy Gillespie - The Complete RCA Victor Recordings (2 CD)
Jimmy Giuffre - Free Fall
Al Haig - The Al Haig Trio Esoteric Records
*Herbie Hancock - Maiden Voyage
Woody Herman - Jazz Hoot/Woody’s Winners
*Andrew Hill - Point Of Departure
*J.J. Johnson - The Eminent Jay Jay Johnson, Volume 1
Rashaan Roland Kirk - A Meeting of the Times
Krzysztof Komeda - Astigmatic
*Lee Konitz - Motion (originally 3 CD issue, now single CD)
Peter Kowald - Was Da Ist
George Lewis - Homage To Charlie Parker
London Jazz Composers Orchestra - Ode (2 CD)
Joe Lovano - From The Soul
*Shelly Manne - At The Blackhawk, Volumes 1 – 5
Rene Marie - Vertigo
John McLaughlin - Extrapolation
Charles Mingus - Mingus Ah Um
Charles Mingus - The Black Saint And The Sinner Lady
*Thelonious Monk - The Complete Blue Note Recordings (4 CD)
Thelonious Monk - The Complete Riverside Recordings (15 CD)
*Lee Morgan - The Sidewinder
Jelly Roll Morton - Complete Recorded Works 1926-30 (JSP) (5 CD)
New Orleans Rhythm Kings - 1922-1925: The Complete Set (2 CD)
*King Oliver - King Oliver’s Creole Jazz Band – Complete Set (2 CD)
Tony Oxley - The Baptised Traveller
Charlie Parker - Complete Savoy and Dial Studio Recordings (8 CD)
Evan Parker - The Snake Decides
Evan Parker - 50th Birthday Concert (2 CD)
Position Alpha - The Great Sound Of Sound
Howard Riley - The Day Will Come
*Max Roach - We Insist! Freedom Now Suite
*Sonny Rollins - Saxophone Colossus
*Sonny Rollins - A Night at the Village Vanguard (2 CD)
Silver Leaf Jazz Band - New Orleans Wiggle
*Tomasz Stanko - Leosia
*Sun Ra - Jazz In Silhouette
John Surman - Tales of the Algonquin
Horace Tapscott - The Dark Tree (2 CD)
Art Tatum - The Complete Pablo Solo Masterpieces (7 CD)
Cecil Taylor - Nefertiti, The Beautiful One Has Come (2 CD)
*Warren Vache and Bill Charlap - 2Gether
*Kid Thomas Valentine/George Lewis - Ragtime Stompers
*Sarah Vaughn - Sarah Vaughn
*Edward Vesala - Lumi
*Bobby Watson - Love Remains
*Larry Young - Unity
*John Zorn - The Big Gundown


Currently out of print:
Betty Carter - The Audience With Betty Carter (2 CD)
John Lewis - Modern Jazz Society Presents a Concert of Contemporary Music
Fats Navarro - The Fabulous Fats Navarro Volume 1
Charlie Parker - The Charlie Parker Story
Alexander von Schlippenbach - Pakistani Pomade
David S. Ware - Godspelized


Demoted:
John Coltrane - The Heavyweight Champion: Complete Atlantic Recordings (7 CD)

Duke Ellington - The Blanton-Webster Band (Never No Lament) (3 CD)
- PJG complained at length about the dreadful sound on this, clamored for a remaster of this for years. RCA finally obliged. Result: Four stars.

Trio Ganelin - Catalogue: Live in East Germany
- demoted due to CD issue of "Ancora da Capo"

Herbie Hancock - Head Hunters

Bobby Hutcherson - Dialogue
- unavailable for years, then RVG remaster receives three and a half stars. ?!?

Modern Jazz Quartet - Dedicated To Connie (2 CD)

Jelly Roll Morton - Piano Solos
- LP received crown, CD received four stars. Go figure.

Vienna Art Orchestra - The Minimalism of Eric Satie


Additional crowns:
John Coltrane - The Major Works of John Coltrane (2 CD)
- superseded (in a way) by issue of "Ascension" on a single CD

Lars Gullin - The Great Lars Gullin Volume 5 1954-1955 (LP)
- material never issued on a single CD, 8 out of the 9 selections are available if you can track down three OOP Swedish compilations

Woody Herman - Woody's Winners
- superseded by reissue of Jazz Hoot/Woody's Winners on single CD

Thelonious Monk - The Genius of Modern Music, Volume One
- included in Blue Note box set

Jelly Roll Morton - Jelly Roll Morton Volume 1 1926-1929 (JSP)
- included as first CD in JSP box set

King Oliver - Volume One 1923 to 1929
- most material included on "King Oliver’s Creole Jazz Band – Complete Set"

Charlie Parker - Charlie Parker on Dial: Volumes 1, 4 & 5 (LP)
Charlie Parker - The Legendary Dial Masters: Volume 1
Charlie Parker on Dial: The Complete Sessions (4 CD)
- various permutations, all included on Complete Savoy and Dial Recordings

Muggsy Spanier - 1931 and 1939
- as such, out of print. "The Great Sixteen" from 1939 (which is what this crown is really all about) are available on a number of Spanier CDs.

[kenny weir]

According to the Crazy Jazz site, this is also a new crown.

LEE KONITZ - SONNY DALLAS / ELVIN JONES : MOTION - (1961 - VERVE LPR EDITION)

I'll be waiting for a month or more for the new edition, but am eager to see what sort of reception any new Australian albums got. I know quite a few albums were sent their way.

[Enforcer]

According to the Crazy Jazz site, this is also a new crown.

LEE KONITZ - SONNY DALLAS / ELVIN JONES : MOTION - (1961 - VERVE LPR EDITION)

I'll be waiting for a month or more for the new edition, but am eager to see what sort of reception any new Australian albums got. I know quite a few albums were sent their way.

Couldn't find a more deserving addition, IMO. One of my very favorites.

[crawjo]

Hey guys,

I'm assembling a list of the 200 "Core Collection" discs. If you'd like me to email you the file, send me a pm.

[Dan G]

Hey, who are you calling a geek?

Penguin Jazz Guide - The Crowns
(* - denotes "Core Collection" CD)

Anthony Braxton - For Alto
London Jazz Composers Orchestra - Ode (2 CD)
Charles Mingus - Mingus Ah Um
Cecil Taylor - Nefertiti, The Beautiful One Has Come (2 CD)

I'm not one who normally questions someone's choices of favorites or of what is important in the history of jazz, etc. but it strikes me as odd that these aren't part of what Morton and Cook would call a core collection.

For Alto is not ony good, it is also a groundbreaking album, the first of its kind. Seems kind of important to me that an album that pretty much changed the shape of jazz to come be an essential item in a well-rounded collection.

Ode...maybe not as influential all-around, but pretty important as a merging of free improv, modern composition, jazz, etc for a large ensemble.

Nefertiti, pretty well the same argument as for the Braxton album; I think this album is key to a lot of music that came after it and its importance and quality combined seem to warrant inclusion.

And as for Ah Um...not to include it is just silly!

So, that said, are there any Braxton, Taylor, or Mingus albums in the core 200. I hope so.

[crawjo]

Which one of you geeks will list all 200?

I am such a geek. By the way, Stoner, I owe you a cd. Soothe the pain of the Cardinals WS loss with some new music, my friend.

[bostontricky]

Hey guys,

I'm assembling a list of the 200 "Core Collection" discs. If you'd like me to email you the file, send me a pm.

Cool David, save me some time typing...I'll cross-check against my notes.

- - -

Konitz's "Motion" received a crown in its original incarnation as a 3-CD release.

- - -

Core recordings for the follwing artists:
Braxton - Eugene (1989)
Mingus - Pithecantropus Erectus, Charles Mingus Presents Charles Mingus
Cecil - Jazz Advance, For Olim, The Tree of Life

Let the geekery continue with the discussion of Cores vs. Crowns! There are certainly some unusual choices, particularly when artists have both Core Collection and crowned albums.

[Jon Abbey]

I'm assembling a list of the 200 "Core Collection" discs. If you'd like me to email you the file, send me a pm.

just post it, please. that Braxton-Eugene record sucks, he's done at least 20 better.

[stonemonkts]

I am such a geek. By the way, Stoner, I owe you a cd. Soothe the pain of the Cardinals WS loss with some new music, my friend.

Thanks, Crawjo. If you wouldn't mind, I'd like to wait until after Election day.

Post the list.

[john williams]

There's no index! That's the most important part of the book.

Yes, I am afraid this will stop me buying it. I wasn't impressed with the last edition. Any non-fiction/reference work of this type without and index is severely crippled IMO. Like someone else said, it makes cross-referencing sidemen etc much more difficult.

[crawjo]

Well, I ran through and counted 183 different "Core Collection" entries. In the intro, they say they have picked out "some 200 discs." It would exceed 200 if you counted the multiple volumes, (such as Live at Birdland, Vol. 1-2) and the box sets. I may have missed one or two, though with the banner and the boldface type, it's hard to miss.

Stoner, I don't want to post this large a list. PM me your email and I'll send it as an Excel attachment.

[Brian Olewnick]

I have to pick up that Ellington Fargo concert one of these years; I've been meaning to forever....

[Jason Bivins]

Wow. I'm with Jon: listing "Eugene 1989" as the core Braxton is fucking perverse. And, as much as I love BSATSL, it's hard to deny "Ah Um."

[Dan G]

I don't hate it as much as some of you, but, yeah, even given that most of the great Braxton Hat releases (Willisau, Dortmund, Performance, Koln, 7 Comps) are oop, there's so much still out there that is far better than Eugene. Shit, they could have at least picked a record he played on, not just conducted (or did he even have that much input into it? can't remember).

But, now that I look at the above, and recognize that most of the Hat stuff is gone, all the 70s things on Arista and more obscure labels like the Moers/Ring albums, etc...jeez, considering the guy's importance, it is a real shame how little of the really prime records are still available.

[crawjo]

Okay, here's the list. Two requests to post it is enough for me.

Adderley, Cannonball Somethin' Else
Air Air Time
Allen, Red Henry "Red" Allen & His Orchestra, 1929-1933
Allison, Mose The Word From Mose
Armstrong, Louis The Complete Hot Fives & Hot Sevens
Armstrong, Louis The Complete RCA Victor Recordings
Art Ensemble of Chicago Art Ensemble 1967-68
Ayler, Albert Spiritual Unity
Barber, Chris The Complete Decca Sessions 1954/55
Basie, Count The Original American Decca Recordings
Basie, Count The Complete Atomic Mr. Basie
Bechet, Sidney Shake 'Em Up
Beiderbecke, Bix Bix And Tram
Blake, Ran The Short Life Of Barbara Monk
Blakey, Art A Night At Birdland, Volume 1-2
Bley, Paul Time Will Tell
Blythe, Arthur Lenox Avenue Breakdown
Braff, Rubie Calling Berlin: Volume 1
Braxton, Anthony Eugene
Brookmeyer, Bob New Works/Celebration
Brotzmann, Peter Machine Gun
Brown, Clifford The Complete Blue Note And Pacific Jazz Recordings
Brubeck, Dave Time Out
Burrell, Kenny Ellington Is Forever Vol. 1
Burton, Gary Hotel Hello
Carter, Benny Further Definitions
Chaloff, Serge Blue Serge
Charles, Teddy The Teddy Charles Tentet
Cole, Nat After Midnight
Coleman, Ornette Beauty Is A Rare Thing
Coleman, Ornette At The Golden Circle, Stockholm: Vol. 1-2
Coltrane, John Giant Steps
Coltrane, John A Love Supreme
Colyer, Ken Club Session With Colyer
Condon, Eddie Eddie Condon, 1927-1938
Connor, Chris Chris Connor
Criss, Sonny Sonny's Dream
Davis, Eddie "Lockjaw" Very Saxy
Davis, Miles Milestones
Davis, Miles Kind Of Blue
Davis, Miles In A Silent Way
Dickenson, Vic Gentleman Of The Trombone
Dolphy, Eric Out To Lunch!
Domnerus, Arne Face To Face
Dorham, Kenny Round About Midnight At The Café Bohemia, Vol. 1-2
Douglas, Dave Convergence
Eldridge, Roy Heckler's Hop
Ellington, Duke Never No Lament
Ellington, Duke Ellington At Newport 1956 (Complete)
Ellington, Duke New Orleans Suite
Evans, Bill The Complete Live At The Village Vanguard 1961
Evans, Gil Out Of The Cool
Farmer, Art Portrait Of Art
Fitzgerald, Ella The Cole Porter Songbook
Freeman, Chico Destiny's Dance
Frisell, Bill Have A Little Faith
Garbarek, Jan Dis
Garner, Erroll Concert By The Sea
Gayle, Charles Touchin' On Trane
Getz, Stan Focus
Gillespie, Dizzy Birks Works
Goodman, Benny At Carnegie Hall 1938 - Complete
Goodman, Benny The Complete Small Group Sessions
Gordon, Dexter Our Man In Paris
Grappelli, Stephane Tivoli Gardens, Copenhagen, Denmark
Green, Grant The Complete Quartets With Sonny Clark
Gullin, Lars Lars Gullin Vol. 2 1953
Haden, Charlie Beyond The Missouri Sky
Hall, Jim Concierto
Hallberg, Bengt Time On My Hands
Hamilton, Scott Plays Ballads
Hampton, Lionel Lionel Hampton 1937-1938
Hancock, Herbie Head Hunters
Harrell, Tom Labyrinth
Harris, Barry Magnificent!
Hawkins, Coleman Body And Soul
Hemphill, Julius Flat-Out Jump Suite
Henderson, Fletcher The Complete Louis Armstrong With Fletcher Henderson
Henderson, Joe The State Of The Tenor Volumes One And Two
Herman, Woody Blowin' Up A Storm!
Hill, Andrew Point Of Departure
Hines, Earl Earl Hines Plays Duke Ellington, Vol. 1-2
Holiday, Billie Lady Day Swings!
Holland, Dave Conference Of The Birds
Hubbard, Freddie Open Sesame
Hyman, Dick Forgotten Dreams
Ibrahim, Abdullah Yarona
Jamal, Ahmad Cross Country Tour: 1958-1961
Jarrett, Keith The Koln Concert
Johnson, Bunk Bunk's Brass Band And Dance Band 1945
Johnson, J.J. The Eminent Jay Jay Johnson: Vol. 1-2
Jordan, Sheila Portrait Of Sheila
Kenton, Stan City Of Glass
Kirk, Rahsaan Roland Rip, Rig And Panic/Now Please Don't You Cry, Beautiful Edith
Konitz, Lee Motion
Lacy, Steve 5 x Monk 5 x Lacy
Lewis, George (1900-1968) Jazz In The Classic New Orleans Tradition
Lewis, Meade Lux Meade Lux Lewis 1927-1939
Little, Booker Booker Little And Friend
Lyttleton, Humphrey The Parlophones Volumes One-Four
Manne, Shelly At The Blackhawk
Marsalis, Wynton J Mood
McLean, Jackie Let Freedom Ring
McPartland, Marian In My Life
Mehldau, Brad The Art Of The Trio Vol. 1
Merrill, Helen Helen Merrill With Clifford Brown And Gil Evans
Mingus, Charles Pithecanthropus Erectus
Mingus, Charles Charles Mingus Presents Charles Mingus
Mitchell, Roscoe Sound
Modern Jazz Quartet The Complete Last Concert
Mole, Miff Slippin' Around
Monk, Thelonious The Complete Blue Note Recordings
Monk, Thelonious Brilliant Corners
Montgomery, Wes Incredible Jazz Guitar
Morgan, Lee The Sidewinder
Moten, Bennie Band Box Shuffle 1929-1932
Motian, Paul Sound Of Love
Mulligan, Gerry The Original Quartet
Murray, David Ming
Navarro, Fats The Complete Fats Navarro On Blue Note And Capitol
Oliver, King King Oliver's Creole Jazz Band - The Complete Set
Original Dixieland Jazz Band The Original Dixieland Jazz Band 1917-1921
Osby, Greg Banned In New York
Parker, Charlie Charlie Parker On Dial: The Complete Sessions
Parker, Charlie Charlie Parker
Parker, Charlie The Quintet - Jazz At Massey Hall
Parker, Evan The Snake Decides
Pass, Joe Virtuoso
Pepper, Art Meets The Rhythm Section
Peterson, Oscar Night Train
Petrucciani, Michael Solo Live
Powell, Bud The Amazing Bud Powell: Vol.1-2
Reinhardt, Django The Classic Early Recordings In Chronological Order
Roach, Max Alone Together
Roach, Max We Insist! Freedom Now Suite
Rogers, Shorty The Sweetheart of Sigmund Freud
Rollins, Sonny Saxophone Collossus
Rollins, Sonny A Night At The Village Vanguard
Rollins, Sonny This Is What I Do
ROVA Bingo
Rushing, Jimmy Rushing Lullabies
Russell, George Jazz Workshop
Schlippenbach, Alexander von Swinging The Bim
Scofield, John Quiet
Shaw, Artie Self Portrait
Shepp, Archie Four For Trane
Shorter, Wayne Speak No Evil
Silver, Horace Blowin' The Blues Away
Sims, Zoot If I'm Lucky
Smith, Jimmy Groovin' At Smalls' Paradise
Smith, Wadada Leo Divine Love
Spanier, Muggsy Muggsy Spanier 1939-1942
Stanko, Tomasz Leosia
Stenson, Bobo Serenity
Sullivan, Maxine Close As Pages In A Book
Sun Ra Jazz In Silhouette
Sun Ra The Magic City
Surman, John A Biography Of The Rev. Absalom Dawe
Tatum, Art The Tatum Group Masterpieces Vol. 8
Taylor, Cecil Jazz Advance
Taylor, Cecil For Olim
Taylor, Cecil The Tree Of Life
Terry, Clark Memories Of Duke
Torme, Mel Mel Torme Swings Shubert Alley
Tristano, Lennie Lennie Tristano
Tyner, McCoy The Real McCoy
Ulmer, James Blood Odyssey
Vache, Warren 2gether
Valentine, Kid Thomas Kid Thomas-George Lewis Ragtime Stompers
Vaughan, Sarah Sarah Vaughan
Vesala, Edward Lumi
Watson, Bobby Love Remains
Weather Report Mysterious Traveller
Weber, Eberhard Yellow Fields
Webster, Ben Music For Loving
Wheeler, Kenny Music For Large And Small Ensembles
Williams, Mary Lou Free Spirits
Williams, Tony Life Time
Woods, Phil Phil Woods/Lew Tabackin
Young, Larry Unity
Young, Lester The Complete Aladdin Sessions
Zorn, John The Big Gundown

[Enforcer]

Interesting. Some of these core recordings overlap into the crowns, I take it?

[stonemonkts]

Was that so hard?

Thank you!

Now the geek talk can commence in full.

[crawjo]

A few comments on the list:

No artist has more than three entries.

I thought the Mingus selections were strange too. "Ah Um" and "Black Saint & The Sinner Lady" are kind of the obvious choices, but maybe here they decided to go against convention.

I haven't heard "Eugene" so I can't comment on that. But how do you pick a representative Braxton? He's a pretty tough guy to nail down with one recording. I guess if I had to pick something, it would probably be Dortmund or For Alto.

Of my favorite artists, I thought the choices were more or less appropriate. Jazz in Silhouette and Magic City are good choices for Sun Ra; Jazz Advance and For Olim are good choices for Cecil Taylor. Cook and Morton really do need to wake up and smell the "Miles Smiles" coffee though.

In all, though, this whole business is really just a silly diversion (which, admittedly, I spent a couple hours on today.) In some cases, they've got albums that don't even get four stars as being a part of the "Core Collection."

Now the question is...who among us owns the most of these?

EDIT: If anybody here would like the above list in a manageable Excel file, let me know. If you already pmed me your address, just reply here or send me another one saying you still want the Excel file.

[stonemonkts]

Interesting. Some of these core recordings overlap into the crowns, I take it?

Yes, some crowns are also cores. But not all crowns.

[stonemonkts]

I like Eugene, so I don't agree it "sucks", but I will say it is a very odd choice as the one and only Braxton in that list. I would've gone with Dortmund (which they feel only deserves three stars...as glaringly odd a rating as any in the book).

[crawjo]

I only own 36 of these. Many of these are artists that I'm just not interested in at the moment.

[crawjo]

I like Eugene, so I don't agree it "sucks", but I will say it is a very odd choice as the one and only Braxton in that list. I would've gone with Dortmund (which they feel only deserves three stars...as glaringly odd a rating as any in the book).

One could argue that including Dave Holland's "Conference of the Birds" was an attempt to balance Eugene with something that features Braxton actually playing.

[Enforcer]

I'd love to see the 2nd 5tet represented on the list. But it's hard to argue with KOB, In A Silent Way and Milestones. Miles Smiles is outstanding, and extremely important. But ESP has always been the slightly neglected masterpiece from the band, IMO. The 2nd 5tet is my favorite jazz group, by the way.

[Jon Abbey]

on a quick count, I have 59 of those, and I've sold another 5-10. what's funny (to me) is how few of those I consider core recordings in my overall collection at this point, I could live without most of them.

[bostontricky]

Larry, check post #34, I've marked the crown/core albums with an asterisk.

I've got 61 of the core collection (61-2/3 if you count what I've got of the Bill Evans set), but thirty of them rode in from the crowned albums I've obsessively tracked down. Like Abbey, also heard/sold a few more non-compelling works.

Without any study at all, I'll definitely pick up Chris Connor, Sonny Criss (w/ arrangements by Horace Tapscott), Ahmad Jamal, David Murray, Schlippenbach and Kenny Wheeler.

But this geek is tired, more tomorrow.
- - -

Whenever it gets boring, remind me to post my list of the 500 works cited in Max Harrison's "The Essential Jazz Recordings" vols. 1 & 2. We'll have a geek-off to end all geek-offs.

[MRS]

I have 38 and am surprised how milktoast the list is. . .guess that's why I like the often recondite crown.

And I'm going w/Dortmund too, Patrick, on Saturday with a prediction of two from Koller.

[john williams]

Yes, the list is a bit obvious with 'popular' choices rather than essential IMO.

Not impressed with their core.

No Sam Rivers at all and only OTL by Dolphy? Yet a Marsalis and Jimmy Rushing!

[Jesse]

I own 36 of their "core" picks. I own many more superlative dates by the listed artists not selected for their "core."

I find many remarkable omissions of artists, besides the esteemed Sam Rivers.
I find these remarkable omissions in my collection (this after winnowing out about 325 platters in the mid-90's that I sold to an indy record store guy here).One glaring dumbfuck example, omitting an astonishing ouevre, is John Carter.

I find a number of their picks puzzling, not as matters of taste (there is no arguing tastes), but as a matter of inclusion in a list of 100.

In sum, I find their "core" 100 as arguable & worthy as my own, or that of my friend's (& undoubtedly, that of some JC posters). Actually, less so.