St. Thomas

[Pete C]

I was aware that a number of the calypsos that Rollins recorded were "traditional," but he gets composer credit for "St. Thomas," and I had always assumed he wrote the tune. Then, about five minutes ago I had Randy Weston's "Get Happy" album on, which I had just downloaded from EMusic. On it is the tune we know as "St. Thomas," recorded a year before Sonny's Saxophone Colossus. It is listed as "Fire Down There," and credited as "traditional." Either Sonny actually wrote it and was performing it earlier than he recorded it, or more likely he made a lot of royalty money from covers of a traditional tune he copyrighted as his own.

[MRS]

It's obviously a much later appearance though I think (I could be wrong) on 'Berkshire Blues,' the same idea pops up.

[bluenoter]

For what they're worth, I found these references:

From http://www.fantasyjazz.com/catalog/rollins_s_cat2.html :

"St. Thomas," a traditional West Indian melody which Mal Waldron remembered as "The Carnival,"

From http://www.jazzweekly.com/interviews/SROLLINS.htm :

FJ: "St. Thomas" has become one of your most classic tunes. How did the composition come about?

SONNY ROLLINS: "St. Thomas" is actually an island melody, sort of a traditional island melody, so all I did was sort of make my arrangement on it. My mother came from St. Thomas. She was born there and she used to sing that to me when I was a little boy. I heard that melody and all I did was actually adapt it. I made my adaptation of sort of an island traditional melody. It did become sort of my trademark tune.

[gnhrtg]

Interestingly I had the same dilemma about Tenor Madness, which appears (in an earlier date) under a different name in the Bud Powell collection that I have by Definitive Records. Does anyone have any info on this?

[Pete C]

Originally posted by gnhrtg
Interestingly I had the same dilemma about Tenor Madness, which appears (in an earlier date) under a different name in the Bud Powell collection that I have by Definitive Records. Does anyone have any info on this?

The tune is "Royal Roost" by Kenny Clarke & his 52nd Street Boys. I believe it also shows up on some bop era air checks too.

[yardbird]

Classical composers (like Grieg) also take folk themes, "brush"them up and puts their name to them.

[gnhrtg]

Thanks Pete, although I do think that the name was different in the compliation (that might be so or the label might have messed up the order of tracks, though the other tracks seemed to in the right order), the CD is at home and I'll check the name when I do get home.

[Pete C]

I just found this:

"Compositions by Theodore "Fats" Navarro*
The following is a listing of compositions attributed to Theodore "Fats" Navarro as prepared by Leif Bo Petersen. ...
Rue Chaptal [Alternate title: Royal Roost] (Theodore "Fats" Navarro-Kenneth "Kenny" Clarke) (12Blues) (Bb) (mm. c. 210)2"

[Pete C]

And this:

"Notes: Tenor Madness is also known as ‘Sportin Crowd’ by Hank Mobley, and ‘Royal Roost’ by Kenny Clarke."

from "John Coltrane Sessionography

1955 - 1964
(Last modified: 12:49 PM, March 24, 2002.)



Allan J. Sutherland."

[jazzy mary]

My 9 year old called me at work about two months ago after her school and asked me if I knew the song "St. Thomas". I said "of course, honey!!". She was all excited because she had just learned it in band and she proceeded to play it for me on her clarinet right there and then over the phone!! She was pretty good too. She thought the song was "kindof easy". When I got home and looked at the sheet music the credits were "S. Rollins, L. Hampton".

My daughter is so amazing because I think she has a real affinity for music. She started taking guitar lessons about two years ago when we got her lessons and an acoustic guitar for her Christmas present. Then for her B-day we got her an electric Fender and an amp. She can play "While My Guitar Gently Weeps", Venus Queen", "Bye the Way " and "Dosed" already (she ADORES the Red Hot Chili Peppers and I gotta say their new cd is fantastic--every song is great!) Then she wanted to learn piano so we got her, for Christmas, not a toy but not a full size Yamaha electric piano. She took her clarinet book, sat down and commenced transcribing all the clarinet music to piano music and whithin a day or so she could play it all on piano! Now, she takes piano lessons and she is *always* playing the piano. The FIRST thing in the morning, even before she brushes her teeth or anything, she'll play the piano. She even plays it during the commercials during her favorite TV shows. She's also composed several tunes but, like a true musician, she says " they're not very good". :-) Now, she's dying to learn drums!

I was telling a couple of friends of mine who are SUPERB musicians and artists about her and they were all amazed. My friend Dwayne said "Something's going on there!"

[gnhrtg]

Yep Pete, exactly, I remember that it was called "Rue Chaptal," and the session did include Fats. So that's clear now.

[Nate Dorward]

A slightly different explanation in the liner notes to Rollins' The Complete Prestige Recordings:

...John Coltrane was added [to Tenor Madness] for an extended performance on a line that Kenny Clarke had recorded ten years earlier under the name "Royal Roost." "I have to plead innocent for taking a composer's credit on 'Tenor Madness,'" Rollins emphasizes. "A lot of record companies wanted to claim publishing rights at the time, and would put your name on a piece and publish it through their company.... The same thing happened with 'St. Thomas,' which of course is a traditional song that I heard my mother singing."

Meanwhile, another compositional puzzle: there's a blues on Miles' Workin' credited to Coltrane called "Trane's Blues", recorded on 11 May 1956. The same line had been recorded by Miles as "Vierd Blues" (credited to Miles) on 16 March of the same year with Rollins playing tenor (released on Collectors' Items). So Prestige (the publisher listed in both cases) actually managed to copyright the same tune twice in the space of two months, listing different composers. Sounds about typical of Prestige's business practice in the period.......

[bluenoter]

Two answers in one, again for what they're worth--from a review of Kenny Dorham's 'Round About Midnight At The Cafe Bohemia at
http://www.allaboutjazz.com/reviews/r0402_091.htm :

"Royal Roost" and "N.Y. Theme" are common property songs of the time: "Royal Roost" was recorded as "Rue Chaptal" by Kenny Clarke and as "Tenor Madness" by Sonny Rollins. "N.Y. Theme" is the same tune Miles Davis recorded as “The Theme” and as "Trane’s Blues."

Edit: Can the "N.Y. Theme" part really be correct? It's, like, the only such assertion that I can find through Google.

And gnhrtg, if the Powell "Rue Chaptal" session is the same one that I keep reading about, it also includes Kenny Clarke.

[Pete C]

"Donna Lee," usually credited to Bird was probably written by Miles.

The first "Milestones," usually credited to Miles was probably written by John Lewis.

I can't remember who really wrote "Eronel," but it wasn't Monk.

"Rifftide," attributed to Hawkins and "Hackensack," attributed to Monk are basically the same tune.

Ellington took co-composer credit for tunes wholly written by band members, like Tizol's "Caravan." Ellington's manager Irving Mills got a piece of the pie by getting co-composer credit for lots of early Ellington hits.

Little Benny Harris's tune "Little Benny" was recorded by Bird as "Crazeology" and Bud Powell as "Bud's Bubble."

There are plenty of other similar cases.

And why did Miles list his mother as composer of "Boplicity"?

[gnhrtg]

Sure it does Bluenoter, and it is a smokin' session methinks.
I'm not sure about Donna Lee, if you listen to Miles and Bird improvise, and if you listen to other tunes that they composed for sure, it sounds a lot like Bird (much more than Miles to me), and yet Miles could have perfectly well composed it.

[Pete C]

Originally posted by gnhrtg
I'm not sure about Donna Lee, if you listen to Miles and Bird improvise, and if you listen to other tunes that they composed for sure, it sounds a lot like Bird (much more than Miles to me), and yet Miles could have perfectly well composed it.

Well, compare it to "Little Wilie Leaps," which is apparently an undisputed Miles composition.

[gnhrtg]

That is true and that is surely one Miles composition that I think could (should) have been written by Bird - it goes to show that Miles was quite talented indeed. However, as you will notice, there are much more similar compositions on Bird's side (which I won't list unless you force me to!) than on Miles'. Nevertheless, as Little Willie Leaps (a very nice version on Joe Lovano's live at V.V. Quartets disc by the way) illustrates, Miles could have penned down Donna Lee (though I still think that it's Bird).

[bluenoter]

I can't remember who really wrote "Eronel," but it wasn't Monk.

Pete, is this what you were thinking of, or was it someone else entirely?

"Swing To Bop: An Oral History of the Transition in Jazz in the 1940's" by Ira Gitler, p. 120 [quoted on a Monk site]:

Idrees Sulieman: "There's a funny story about 'Eronel.' I wrote the first sixteen bars but I wrote it [sings]. I didn't have a middle, so Sadik Hakim put a middle on it. I played it for Miles, and he didn't like it, didn't like the middle, but we said, 'No, we're keeping that.'"

"So I took it to Monk, and Monk said [sings, changing one note] - made a mistake. I said, 'That's the wrong note but play it again. Leave that note in. We'll do the writers' credits three ways."

"And Monk recorded it five times and never mentioned our names at all. I saw Monk in Copenhagen and told him: 'Why don't you make a statement and tell them how it really happened.' See, Sadik was in love with a girl named Lenore, and he was going to name it after her, but he said, "No, that would be too way out.' So we spelled the name backwards. And Monk wrote so many tunes, so much BETTER, so I can't understand why he wouldn't say it like it is. But he took the whole credit. That wasn't fair."

[Nate Dorward]

Hm......I'd come across that bit about "Eronel" before. What inclines me to some skepticism is the presence of Sadik Hakim/Argonne Thornton in the story, who's the guy who also claimed to be the pianist at the "Now's the Time/Koko" recording sessions even though others who were present deny this.

[Pete C]

Originally posted by Nate Dorward
Hm......I'd come across that bit about "Eronel" before. What inclines me to some skepticism is the presence of Sadik Hakim/Argonne Thornton in the story, who's the guy who also claimed to be the pianist at the "Now's the Time/Koko" recording sessions even though others who were present deny this.

That is the story I've heard about "eronel". And if you listen to the solo on "Thriving on a Riff" and another tune or two from the session, it is unmistakably Sadik Hakim. The story I've always heard is that Dizzy played piano on some and Hakim on others, and that it had something to do with union stuff.

[Pete C]

As originally published in
The Atlantic Monthly
November 1988


Bird on Film


Charlie Parker gets lost in a fan's new movie

by Francis Davis

...

"Parker's innovations--and those of the trumpeter Dizzy Gillespie and the pianist Bud Powell--are today so ingrained in jazz that it is difficult to remember that bebop was initially considered so esoteric and forbidding that only its originators could play it. "Ko Ko" would seem to prove the point. Stimulated by Parker, the drummer Max Roach made a breakthrough of his own on "Ko Ko," with an unyielding polyrhythmic accompaniment that amounted to a second melodic line. Gillespie, who had been forced into service as a pianist in relief of Sadik Hakim (listen to Hakim's disoriented introduction on "Thrivin' on a Riff," recorded earlier at the session, and you'll know why), also had to spell the trumpeter Miles Davis on "Ko Ko." Davis, then still in his teens and making his recording debut, declined even to try his luck on the piece."

[MRS]

I don't know about "Eronel." I was having lunch w/Nathaniel Mackey a couple years ago and he had a hell of a yarn on its origins (which, coincidentally, was so far fetched I can't even remember it). . .something to do with a two-bit strumpet named, you guessed it, Lenore.

What about 'Round Midnight? We could start a thread consisting of how many different musicians are credited. I've always stuck with Denzil/Monk.

[bluenoter]

And if you listen to the solo on "Thriving on a Riff" and another tune or two from the session, it is unmistakably Sadik Hakim. The story I've always heard is that Dizzy played piano on some and Hakim on others, and that it had something to do with union stuff.

In my Savoy and Dial Master Takes box (on Savoy), "Argonne Thornton (Sadik Hakim)" is credited with piano on the whole session, November 26, 1945, except for KoKo: "Gillespie plays trumpet (and is probably also on piano) on KoKo."

[Dennis Gonzalez]

Very nice story about your 9-year-old, Jazzy Mary. I can only imagine the great encouragement you give her, proud Mom!

I remember a friend of mine gave me a rare album for my birthday, and he signed the dedication with something that ended with:"...and may your children have perfect pitch." Looks like you got the blessing!

[Nate Dorward]

Thanks for the info--what I was remembering was this passage in the Cook/Morton guide--

...some of the pianist's intros and solos are positively bizarre; step forward, pianist Argonne Thornton, who remembers (though he's the only one who does) being at the sessions.

--plus some of the various oral histories & biographies. But I take it that discographers & Parkerphiles have in the end decided that Thornton/Hakim's story checks out. -- I've no idea what Hakim's piano style is like outside those sessions, though I vaguely remember our station library having a copy of his comeback album when I ran a radio show. The piano playing on some of the tracks with Parker is so fumbling & messy that I'd found it easy to credit reports that a non-pianist was at the keyboard for some of them.

[Pete C]

Hakim is on a Lester Young Alladin session and a Dexter Gordon Savoy session among others. If you listen to those you'll have no doubt that it's him on "Thrivin' on a Riff."

[John L]

As I understand, the story goes that Bud Powell was booked for the date, but left for Philadelphia unexpectedly. Gillespie apparently plays the piano on the first "Cherokee (Warming Up a Riff)," "Billie's Bounce," and "Now's the Time." Hakim arrived and took over piano duties for "Thriving on a Riff." But Gillespie played piano again on "Embraceable You (Meandering)." Hakim then plays piano behind Bird and Diz on Ko Ko. Apparently Diz and Hakim agreed on this story while they were alive.

Not that the history of jazz depends on the correct story.


Next question: who wrote Tiger Rag?

[bluenoter]

Next question: who wrote Tiger Rag?

Some say it was Jack Carey (or the whole Crescent City Orchestra--or rather, several members thereof). Some say it was Nick LaRocca (or the whole ODJB). But I say it was Lionel Tiger.

It wasn't Jelly Roll Morton.

(Harry DaCosta seems to have written the lyrics.)

Here's a site that discusses the question:

http://www.geocities.com/infrogmation/Tiger.html

and here's a site that discusses the Jack Carey theory:

http://www.redhotjazz.com/jackcarey.html

[Pete C]

[jazzy mary]

Pete, LOL!! Dennis, THANK YOU!! I was getting ready to say "Ahem, everyone, this is a very interesting topic--BUT WHAT ABOUT MY AMAZING KID!!!??" Honestly, I do find this thread very interesting but with the with the thread title of "St. Thomas" I couldn't help myself.. Although, truthfully, I prob. should have put it under my own thread called something like "Brag Shamelessly About Your Children Here" :-)