Sax/Drums Duets

[Ennis Snavely]

I guess that "interstellar space" is the model for this type of duet, but the history of this instrumentation since that session full of examples that really don't compare to the Coltrane/Ali session at all. I really just see I.S. as one instance of a musical framework that, for some reason, puts into high relief the creative abilities of the participants. The absence of a chordal instrument is no doubt the reason for this in a way similar to the pianoless quartets of Gerry Mulligan and Ornette Coleman.

I'm interested in the history of this pairing and want to know what the earliest example of a sax/drum duet. Maybe you all have some favorite examples of your own you'd like to mention. I can come up with the following list from my collection:

Brotzmann/Drake
McPhee/Drake
Eskelyn/Bennik
Murray/Graves
Mateen/Murray
Lyons/Cyrille

What I don't like about this list is that it's all from the last 15 years. There's got to me a lot more examples.

I'm interested if Sonny Rollins had ever recorded such a duet; that's something that I would love to hear.

[stonemonkts]

Braxton/Roach
Evan Parker/Susie Ibarra (live 2001 bootleg)
Evan Parker/Eddie Prevost

[Richardo Caerleoni]

.....
What I don't like about this list is that it's all from the last 15 years. There's got to me a lot more examples.

I'm interested if Sonny Rollins had ever recorded such a duet; that's something that I would love to hear.

Includes the Sonny/Philly Joe Jones Duet - "Surry with the Fringe on Top"...brilliant...although a lot of earlier Rollins tracks with Max Roach seem to me to be (almost) duets?

Agree about Intersteller Space...and would add the Braxton/Roach set.

ALSO, often overlooked - the Jackie Mclean/Michael Calvin album on Steeplechase..."Antiquity"? Not sure if its still around (from the '70s?) but Jackie (as always) pushing for something "new".

I'm sure there must be earlier examples - maybe Lester?

Good thread...I really like this cut down sound...which leaves more space...love Saxophone/bass/drums trios...RC.

[Frisco]

The John Stevens/Evan Parker duos from the Spontaneous Music Ensemble's "Summer 1967" date back to August and September of 67. There are also two tracks as a trio w/Peter Kowald.

One of my favorites remains the Joseph Jarman/Famoudou Don Moye duos on Egwu-Anwu from India Navigation in 1978.

William Hooker and David S. Ware hook up in a killer duo from 1975 on a record called "Is Eternal Life". Not sure if it ever made it to CD though.

Brotzmann and Bennink did the Schwarzwaldfahrt record for FMP in 1977, though Bennink plays everything but the kitchen sink in addition to drums. Of course there's the Brotzmann/Cyrille duo on FMP from 1982.

[Steve Reynolds]

want to hear Corner to Corner with Stevens & Parker

love many of the above

[Dan G]

My favorite of this combination are the aforementioned Braxton/Roach and Lyons/Cyrille albums.

Some other good ones:

John Stevens pairings with Trevor Watts (Face to Face), Frode Gjerstad (Sunshine is a great album), Dudu Pukwana (Raedale), and of course Parker (Corner to Corner at least, I haven't heard Longest Night)

Urs Liemgruber/ Fritz Hauser (DuHo, L'enigmatique)

Ivo Perelman/Jay Rosen (The Hammer)

and I've seen people criticizing it, but I like the McPhee/Drake disc Emancipation Proclamation

Some really disappointing ones:

John Butcher duos with any percussionist - Gerry Hemingway (Shooters and Bowlers is awful) Dylan van der Schyff (actually I shouldn't say it was disappointing because I didn't expect much), the little bit I've heard of him and Gino Robair didn't inspire me to buy the full albums. I do have a recording somewhere of Butcher and Steve Noble that is OK though.

Mats Gustafsson/Hamid Drake (For Don Cherry)

The Prevost/Gare version of AMM

[hermann]

I just got a Han Bennink CD and on it there are:

J.R.Monterose - Han Bennink --> Sonnymoon for two ( 1969 )

Evan Parker - Han Bennink --> Coyotes are eating pure bread poodles in Beverly Hills ( 2000 ) CD 'The Grass Is Greener'

[Ennis Snavely]

How's the Parker/Lytton duet "at the unity theater"?

Dan: what don't you like about the Butcher/Hemmingway duet? I thought it was pretty sucessfull.

There's a new Zorn/Graves duet on Tzadik (one of the 50th b-day CDs). Anyone checked that one out yet.

Thanks for reminding me about the Rollins/Jones duet. I need to whip that one out.

The Shepp/Roach duets are also out there, but I haven't heard them.

I kind of wish Chris A. was still around here. He might be able to come up with some vintage examples.

[Richardo Caerleoni]

How's the Parker/Lytton duet "at the unity theater"?


Thanks for reminding me about the Rollins/Jones duet. I need to whip that one out.

The Shepp/Roach duets are also out there, but I haven't heard them.

I kind of wish Chris A. was still around here. He might be able to come up with some vintage examples.

ME TOO...CHRIS A ...PHONE HOME!

RC. [Ck out the Jackie M/Calvin...Excellent...must still be around]

[gnhrtg]

There's a new Zorn/Graves duet on Tzadik (one of the 50th b-day CDs). Anyone checked that one out yet.

I like it - mostly high-energy and hard blowing but the music easily sustains my interest over the duration of the disc. If you like the frentic Zorn, you'll not want to miss it and if you don't, then I guess you can safely skip it.

[Pete C]

Something in the back of my mind makes me think there might have been a duet by Hawkins (or another vintage tenor) and either Jo Jones or Sid Catlett, but it's a very vague notion, and probably totally wrong, so forget I ever mentioned it.

[SilentKnowledge]

What I have enjoyed so far:

Coltrane/Ali of course!

Mats Gustafsson/Paul Nilssen-Love

Peter Brotzman/Hamid Drake

Assif Tsahar/Tatsuya Nakatani

Evan Parker/John Stevens

Ken Vandermark/Paul Nilssen-Love

Paul Dunmall/Tony Bianco

Brotzmann and Bennink did the Schwarzwaldfahrt record for FMP in 1977, though Bennink plays everything but the kitchen sink in addition to drums.

The same applies for "Ein Halber Hund Kann Nicht Pinkeln" which is quite frentic.

[Dan G]

How's the Parker/Lytton duet "at the unity theater"?

Dan: what don't you like about the Butcher/Hemmingway duet? I thought it was pretty sucessfull.

I just found the Butcher/Hemingway disc boring. And they are very different players. Regardless of what all he's tried, at his heart Hemingway is a jazz musician (one of the best). And Butcher isn't. So neither of them work to their best at the middle ground.

But then again, I think Butcher is best alone or in larger ensembles (i.e. Chris Burn Ensemble). At least a trio.

As for the Parker/Lytton duos, I like them a lot. Unity Theatre is great, as are Collective Calls and RA 1+2. I'm not as thrilled with Two Octobers and Three Other Stories, but maybe need to listen to them again. It's kind of hard to really call all of these percussion/sax duos, becasue there is so much other stuff that comes into play on the good ones: Lytton's electronics, Parker with cassette decks, etc that make them much more interesting than just reed/drum duos. And probably more interesting than what they would do as a duo now.

I think what I like about these is the dense, noisy components, that, to bring it back around to the Butcher thoughts, are what is missing. To me, Butcher just doesn't sound right with a percussionist - there's something about his approach. I've been trying to put it into words exactly what I mean, but its beyond me.

[SilentKnowledge]

But then again, I think Butcher is best alone

I have recently concluded that as well.

I think what I like about these is the dense, noisy components, that, to bring it back around to the Butcher thoughts, are what is missing. To me, Butcher just doesn't sound right with a percussionist - there's something about his approach. I've been trying to put it into words exactly what I mean, but its beyond me.

I understand that sentiment. He seems hesitant on what to perform next with a percussionist. He has avoided percussionists for some time claiming that they are too "dominent". Hopefully the duos with Paul Nilssen-Love display some interest. I am a fan of Nilssen-Love.

Regards,

Alexander

[jmje]

Here's a few worth sax/drum duo cd's worth hearing:
- Paul Flaherty, Chris Corsano / The Hated Music / E.Yod
- Paul Flaherty, Randall Colbourne / Ottawa / Zaabway
- Wally Shoup, Jeph Jerman / Rescue Mission / Shrat
- Ryan Noel, Brain Army / Army of Ghosts / Parallelism
- Paul Dunmall, Tony Levin / Essential Expressions / CJR
- Bob Magnuson, Tom Desteno / Over the Edge / CJR

all leaning toward the recently maligned fire music end of the spectrum.

[SilentKnowledge]

- Paul Dunmall, Tony Levin / Essential Expressions

I have only heard a few audio samples of that disc, but judging from those, it was quite excellent.

[Dr Dave]

Fucking avant kids. Taking over everything. Grump, grump, grump. Somebody's gotta hold up the other end, so here goes:

Elvin and Dave Liebman: "The Top Of The Middle" on Elvin's "Earth Jones," recently re-released on Quicksilver.

Dave Liebman with TWO drummers, Bob Moses and Jeff Williams: "The Call" on Liebman's "Drum Ode," which is available from ECM Japan.

Joe Henderson and Gregory Hutchinson: "Take The A Train" on Henderson's "Lush Life."

In the general category of one horn and one drummer, I defy anyone to come up with anything as tasty and swinging and at the same time totally out there as this baby:

[Steve Reynolds]

sorry Dr. Dave

best drum/horn (non-sax) duet from the olden' days are the tracks with Roy Eldridge & Alvin Stoller from a double Benny Carter CD from 1954

[SilentKnowledge]

The Dizzy/Max duos seem fun. I would like to hear the Liebman & Jones duos as well.

[Steve Reynolds]

I LOVE IT WHEN YOU SNORE

Mats Gustafsson & Nilsson-Love

oh baby

need to locate Lund and convince him to give me his copy of the Mats/Lovens disc

[Nate Dorward]

John Butcher duos with any percussionist - Gerry Hemingway (Shooters and Bowlers is awful) Dylan van der Schyff (actually I shouldn't say it was disappointing because I didn't expect much), the little bit I've heard of him and Gino Robair didn't inspire me to buy the full albums. I do have a recording somewhere of Butcher and Steve Noble that is OK though.

Yes the one with Hemingway is lousy--even John doesn't have much good to say about it (it was recorded at the start of a tour & I gather he wishes it had been recorded at the end once the partnership had been worked out). Like a lot of Butcher discs it's a bit of a notebook in the shape of an album. Not one of his more interesting notebooks, though. But the one with van der Schyff is pretty good.

There are of course instances of Coltrane's performing in duet with drums before Interstellar Space, notably "Vigil" (1965) & several passages on earlier discs where the Garrison either drops out or might as well have dropped out.

[SilentKnowledge]

I LOVE IT WHEN YOU SNORE

Mats Gustafsson & Nilsson-Love

oh baby

It is a very fun disc.

There are of course instances of Coltrane's performing in duet with drums before Interstellar Space, notably "Vigil" (1965) & several passages on earlier discs where the Garrison either drops out or might as well have dropped out.

"Your Lady" is also notable. Only on certain sections of course.

Regards,

Alexander

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

[Dr Dave]

sorry Dr. Dave

best drum/horn (non-sax) duet from the olden' days are the tracks with Roy Eldridge & Alvin Stoller from a double Benny Carter CD from 1954

This I gotta hear. I loved Roy.

[Darryl G. Thomas]

I've been listening to "We Is: Live from the Bop Shop" a lot, a David Murray-Kahil El' Zabar duet performance. As a matter of fact, it's been on continuous play in my car for awhile.

[Richardo Caerleoni]

OK....found it...

LISTEN TO THIS...? Jackie Mclean and Mike C...not what you may think? RC.....In the new year I am starting a Jackie Mclean thread...People get ready! Voice your choice!

[Joe Milazzo]

For something a bit different, check out Bud Freeman's mid-1940's duet with Ray McKinley, "The Atomic Era", available here:



BTW, this disc also features the absolutely priceless V-disc performances "The Latest Thing In Hot Jazz" and "For Musicians Only (A Musical Treatise On Jazz)"

An album-length favorite would be Dewey Redman and Ed Balckwell, RED AND BLACK AT WILISAU (Black Saint, 1980)

[SilentKnowledge]

An album-length favorite would be Dewey Redman and Ed Balckwell, RED AND BLACK AT WILISAU (Black Saint, 1980)

Judging from the audio samples that I have heard, it seems that it is a very excellent disc.

[Dig Gonsalves]

Glenn Spearman/John Heward

[Pete C]

I haven't heard it in years, but Roach & Shepp's "The Long March" is terrific. It's one of the lost Horo treasures.