eai 5.0

[Gary Sisco]

When CDs and digital took over, people started dumping so much of their old stuff, I kept looking and hoping for an old tube amp being sold by someone cheap, not knowing what they had. I came close one day at a yard sale. Someone was selling a tube amp but it was from the days when sometimes each stereo side had its own amp, and there was only one.

Jon, do you think maybe with electronic music of the present, tubes are a bit slower to react than solid state? Just a passing thought as I was writing the above.

I've always wanted a tube amp but they are way out of my reach today.

[Bill Ashline]

You're talking about mono amps there Gary. Each one drives a separate speaker. You can buy some of these vintage amps on Ebay. Check for old McIntosh's. Or try out a Jolida. These days some of the better and cheaper tube amps are coming out of China. Here's a list of recent Jolida on Ebay:

http://search.ebay.com/search/search...satitle=jolida

[Brian Olewnick]

When you're drowning in discs, it's easy to never get back to some things, even things you really enjoyed when you first played through them several times. Hence my longtime anal habit of, more or less, playing through my collection. Just finished a round through the regular alpha CD run, this time only picking out things that, at the moment, I actually thought I'd enjoy hearing. This cut down on sequence time immensely of course. For instance, I guess I have 50+ Zorn discs, but I only felt like hearing "Early Works", "Cynical Hysterie Hour" and "Leng T'che".

In any case, those were the "regularly filed" discs. I now proceed to wend my way through the over- and undersized sections of the collection. I fudge a little bit on the alpha here. Since the big 'uns require some bookending, despite having Akiyamas and such in residence the AMPLIFY box, sturdy object that it is, finds itself first to go.

I have disc 1 on now and just wanted to report how fresh and wonderful it still sounds. Not having listened, I imagine, in over a year it still kicks major butt and outstrips a LOT of what I've heard in the meantime.

I still think, as I wrote at the time, that there are way worse places for an eai newbie to dip his/her toes if they're up for making the investment.

[Jon Abbey]

those boxes are starting to run low also, not the worst investments in the world. I saw a IMJ box go for $450 (!) on eBay recently.

[Brian Olewnick]

Originally Posted by Jon Abbey

IMJ box

The other bookend on section 1, oversized stock......

[letchhausen]

Originally Posted by Gary Sisco

When CDs and digital took over, people started dumping so much of their old stuff, I kept looking and hoping for an old tube amp being sold by someone cheap, not knowing what they had. I came close one day at a yard sale. Someone was selling a tube amp but it was from the days when sometimes each stereo side had its own amp, and there was only one.

Jon, do you think maybe with electronic music of the present, tubes are a bit slower to react than solid state? Just a passing thought as I was writing the above.

I've always wanted a tube amp but they are way out of my reach today.

I'm not sure what you mean by slower to react but having heard various Erst CD's on some state of the art solid state and tube equipment that it really comes down to sound preference and equipment preference. There is some neutral sounding tube amps and some warm sound solid state. I prefer tubes and electronic music sounds great on it.

As Bill pointed out Jolida makes cheaper tube equipment and there's a Chinese manufacturer called Cayin that's making quite a splash these days with some low priced tube equipment. It's out there, you just have to find it. While ebay is one source I'm gonna stump for Audiogon again. You can even browse through gear by tube or solid state categories.........

[Bill Ashline]

There's a Cayin TA-30, considered to be one of the finest integrateds for the price, on Ebay right now for $375 to start. Not a bid on it yet and 2 1/2 days to go. Normally goes for about $1400 or so new.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...MakeTrack=true

[Gary Sisco]

Duh. I knew I was talking two channel mono but had a brain blink. (I'm addled, ya know.) Thanks for the info on the available tube equipment. I just upgraded this year -- new used set of speakers and an intro-level, studio-quality burner -- so it'll be a while before I do it again, but it's good to know that some gear is being made that people other than Bill Gates can afford.

By slow, I was thinking back to my electronic tech days in the service. Tubes were just a hair slower to do their thing than the (at the time) solid-state gear, but we're talking fractions of seconds is all (those fractions were crucial in the gig I did, which depended on fractions of microseconds....). I was thinking that nevertheless there might be just a hair of rounding off the really abrupt changes in amplitude that can often happen in eai. But likely it's all too fast for human ears to notice.

Never mind ...

[Brian Olewnick]

Very tasty set tonight at Stone with Otomo, Tim Barnes, Sean Meehan and Margarida Garcia. Expected a solid show, got a bit more than that--a little less quiet than I figured (pp instead of ppp), some lovely interaction and sound placement.

Hope Paul B shares his thoughts on it as it's relatively new territory for him. Good, as always, to see Gordon again.

btw, that "too-conservative" jazz critic for the New York Times was also in attendance.....

[Sergio Zamora]

Originally Posted by Brian Olewnick

btw, that "too-conservative" jazz critic for the New York Times was also in attendance.....

I don't always follow you ladies' gossip. Who is that?

Do you know if Garcia is here for an extended period or just for the show?

[Jon Abbey]

Margarida has been living in NYC for the last couple of years, going to school here. that ends next May, she's not sure what she's going to do at that point.

[Sergio Zamora]

Originally Posted by Jon Abbey

Margarida has been living in NYC for the last couple of years, going to school here. that ends next May, she's not sure what she's going to do at that point.

For some reason, I thought she was already done with that and had returned to Europe.

[Brian Olewnick]

Originally Posted by Sergio Zamora

I don't always follow you ladies' gossip. Who is that?

Referring to the back 'n; forth on the Coltrane/Monk article in Speak Out...

[Brian Olewnick]

Ben's review from today's NYT:

New Sounds and New Approaches






By BEN RATLIFF
Published: December 30, 2005
Some music - all right, most music - wears its structure explicitly, and sometimes even its purpose: trackable melodic arcs, systems of related chords, establishing a home base and then returning to it, call-and-response, division into sections, beats to dance to, long tones to meditate to.

Hiroyuki Ito for The New York Times
Otomo Yoshihide at the Stone.


On Wednesday night, the Japanese musician Otomo Yoshihide played a set of improvised music with some American friends at the Stone in the East Village, and it was qualitatively different from the norms described above. It didn't repudiate the idea of music as language; there were swelling and ebbing actions, carefully spaced repetitions and an effort among the four musicians to make their instruments blend, in touch and timbre. But it was an exponentially closer look. You weren't seeing a forest; you were examining a sliver of tree bark under a microscope.





Since the late 1980's Mr. Otomo has been known as a turntablist and electronic musician, incredibly adept at manipulating electronic and recorded sound in real-time improvisations. But for the last few years he has performed a great deal on the guitar, often altered and prepared in various ways. In Wednesday's early set, he rubbed contact microphones and magnets and cellphones against the guitar strings, making bell-like chiming tones or just using the guitar's pickup - a kind of microphone for vibrations - as an instrument in itself; he carefully controlled his volume with a pedal.

Mr. Otomo has curated a six-night run at the Stone this week; for this performance, his choice of musicians to play with was the limit of his bandleading. The set, with the percussionists Tim Barnes and Sean Meehan and the bassist Margarida Garcia, was about players melting into one another's fields of sound. All had an equal share in the performance.

This was extremely quiet music. When things weren't really jelling, its reverence for silence sometimes seemed rigid or pious; as red lights turned to green outside the club on Avenue C, and drivers gunned their engines, the floppy song of the street barged in all the time. (And for stretches of the hourlong set, there wasn't much flow: this foursome hadn't played together before.)

But during the set's more effective parts, that reverence was only proper. Mr. Barnes altered his instruments and his attack as much as Mr. Otomo did, using all kinds of soft and hard tools to make noises with a gong and a drum: a little chain, a block of Styrofoam, small bowls and cymbals, deployed with snaps and rattles and taps. (This music demands not only new instrumentation and new collective strategies, but new physical approaches to playing.)

Mr. Meehan, as usual, worked with a single snare drum. But he didn't hit it; he put various cymbals on top of it, upside down or right side up, and set a long, thin stick inside the cymbal's hole, which he rubbed in downward motions with thumb and forefinger. It made a resonating hum and a metal shimmer, and because all the other musicians were using bows - Ms. Garcia on her bass, Mr. Barnes on his gong, Mr. Otomo on his guitar - there grew a beautiful cloud of acoustic throbbing, caused by friction.

[Jon Abbey]

that Mr. construction never fails to amuse me, "Mr. Otomo". how long is the Times going to insist on using that, without exception?

my man Efren wrote on another thread:

I don't want to bring back older subjects that I probably have missed, so please forward me to the right thread if this has been repeatedly discussed here. As you may remember, Jon, I've had similar debates (arguments) on another list with people who could not understand how someone might consider classic jazz, free jazz (which is also classic at this point, if you ask me) or free improv something ankylosed. I must admit that, objective criticisms aside, I've somehow learnt to enjoy those musics just for what they represent in the here and now for me, regardless of their relevance for the future of music or how far they've climbed in the musical evolution ladder. Therefore, it sounds a bit strange for me to read about how worthless it is for a talented musician is to play jazz nowadays (I know it's not verbatim, but it's not the actual subject matter of this message, either)

That said -and this may sound a bit of a rhetorical query for someone who heads a label like Erstwhile- I would like to know where you think this reductionist/onkyo/whatever scene is heading for. As you know, I'm interested in your releases, as well as those of labels like For4Ears, the AMM body of work in general, etc... but, from my point of view, if jazz in any of its variants is a style that has grown limited, I can see a shelf-life for this minimal eai that's much closer in the horizon.

To summarize: after getting around 20-25 eai records, my feeling is: "Ok, what's next?" Do you perceive an evolutive arch from, say, 1999 to 2006 that "confirms" this is the future or at least one of its paths for improvised music?

I assume I don't need to clarify it, but this is just a question that arises from mere curiosity and the will to hear other perspectives (not too many people in my environment listen to this stuff, as you can imagine).

well, obviously that's a pretty big question. the short-term answer for me is simply my 2006 release schedule, starting with the Keith/Toshi double CD coming out in the spring, which isn't like any music I've ever heard before (the closest thing is maybe Good Morning Good Night). I can't speak for other labels and/or musicians, but I'm not going to waste my time and money putting out new releases if I don't think they bring something new to the table.

running out of creative ideas or too closely repeating previous ideas is a problem I constantly think about, and I know a lot of the main musicians in this area do also. this area moved in leaps and bounds over the last five or so years at times, and obviously no area of music can sustain that forever. that being said, I see numerous signs for optimism about the future at this point. one of many: the Australian scene that seemed to emerge full-blown this year, artists like Will Guthrie, Arek Gulbenkoglu, Matthew Earle, and some others.

"eai" or whatever silly name you choose to call this area of music is more of a worldwide music in its developmental stage than any area of music in history. that simple fact in and of itself gives me quite a bit of hope that there will be at least a few more years of serious creativity. there are obviously always artists in any genre who have little to say, or who don't mind essentially repeating themselves once they've found something that they're happy with or people like. hopefully those don't cloud the work of those who are making strides still.

maybe that answered your question/s, not sure. others can certainly feel free to chime in.

[Erik Lund]

every time I read about Meehan it sounds like he is getting credit for those extended techniques (with the cymbals)

Just an observation...

[Gary Sisco]

Good response to a big question, Jon. I'm going to be interested in where and how people proceed.

[efrendv]

Originally Posted by Jon Abbey

well, obviously that's a pretty big question. the short-term answer for me is simply my 2006 release schedule, starting with the Keith/Toshi double CD coming out in the spring, which isn't like any music I've ever heard before (the closest thing is maybe Good Morning Good Night). I can't speak for other labels and/or musicians, but I'm not going to waste my time and money putting out new releases if I don't think they bring something new to the table.

Thanks for your reply, Jon. I knew this was a very general question with many multiple answers that could branch out into very different areas. I'll be on the lookout for that new cd.

running out of creative ideas or too closely repeating previous ideas is a problem I constantly think about, and I know a lot of the main musicians in this area do also. this area moved in leaps and bounds over the last five or so years at times, and obviously no area of music can sustain that forever.

I think it's fair to say withouth the need of conformist flatterings that Erstwhile and a handful of other labels in that vein have come up with some truly revolutionay music during the last years, and that's a lot so say in our era. Furthermore, I probably share most of your motivations to say "jazz is dead" (although I'm still able to enjoy it). However, I'm of the opinion that freely improvised music (and I'd say that eai can be filed under that category, although it's a new language in its own right) generally falls onto its own traps. Imho, the conscious will to move away from preconceived musical notions and dive into purely "ad hoc" practices has, paradoxically, yielded predictable results in the short term. We should now enter the tired debate of a musician's own baggage, the impossibility to create new musical situations every time a musician tackles a performance, etc, and that's too endless a discussion, but I generally agree with most of these propositions.

That said, what I think makes your releases truly special is that improvisation is tackled from a crude perspective in which we, the listeners, are exempted from many of the elements that usually conform our listening experience, particularly rythm (in my case). Of course, some of these features have appeared long before in the story of Improvised Music (and other genres, such as "serious" electronic music like that of (imho) the true masters like Subotnick, Mumma, Ferrari, etc), but not in a manner that demands so much on the listerner's end and never so deprived of "musical events" as we used to know them. However, that sense of "musical nudity" is what prompted my original question of "and now, what?". Seen from the perspective of a mere listener, I'm under the impression that these musicians have very few elements to toy with in order to produce those few-and-far-between events and thus keep the listener's interest alive. I'm truly sick and tired of a chain on a snare drum, or drumsticks among the guitar strings, or someone tapping his double-bass, which is what I generally expect from a free-improv show. I think that's no longer original and that it hasn't been for quite a while. But the prospect of someone performing with an empty sampler or a turntable without discs triggers, in me, the feeling of a very close expiration date.

that being said, I see numerous signs for optimism about the future at this point. one of many: the Australian scene that seemed to emerge full-blown this year, artists like Will Guthrie, Arek Gulbenkoglu, Matthew Earle, and some others.

I must admit I've only read about these musicians. I'll try to give a listen to them.

I'm out of town and it's a bit hard to concentrate on what I'm trying to write with many people around. I hope language has not betrayed me either and I have more or less conveyed my ideas on this. My main preoccupation isn't as actually a matter of how innovative (which I think it is, and that's enormously valuable in this century of massive communications and short-lived artistic expressions) but of "how long" and where can these musicians go from the point they're at now or how can they depart from these scarce elements or find others to engender something slightly different.

[Gary Sisco]

True that just about everything settles into its own kind of approach, after a while, but I also recall many saying that free improv had hit the end of its road, for those reasons -- only to have eai etc come along and completely alter the picture.

At this point, I'd say there are several tendencies being gathered together under the rubric of "eai" -- any one of which could crystallize into formulaic approaches or evolve into a new thing of its own -- only time will tell. I'd never have predicted metal developing into anything that would interest me before this year's encounter with Sunno))) and also with other noise/drone-type things that haven't a name, yet, with me, so I'll not be making many predictions about where things will go -- and certainly not of the "death" of anything. Just about anything -- or nothing -- could come from future unexpected fusionary collisions like these. Only time will tell.

I also think Otomo is getting into some interesting and worthwhile shit with his New Jazz Orchestra (ONJO) that certainly bears watching.

[Jon Abbey]

Originally Posted by efrendv

I'm truly sick and tired of a chain on a snare drum, or drumsticks among the guitar strings, or someone tapping his double-bass, which is what I generally expect from a free-improv show. I think that's no longer original and that it hasn't been for quite a while. But the prospect of someone performing with an empty sampler or a turntable without discs triggers, in me, the feeling of a very close expiration date.

to an extent here you're confusing the source with the results. the overall result is what matters in collective improv, not how the individuals produce their sounds.

My main preoccupation isn't as actually a matter of how innovative (which I think it is, and that's enormously valuable in this century of massive communications and short-lived artistic expressions) but of "how long" and where can these musicians go from the point they're at now or how can they depart from these scarce elements or find others to engender something slightly different.

well, only time will tell. like I said or implied above, if I can't find/put together records I'm excited enough about releasing to spend my time and money on, then I'll stop. I have at least three projects for 2006 which are far enough along that I'm very excited about (the aforementioned Keith/Toshi, a dieb13/ErikM double turntable disc, and a Toshi/Billy Roisz DVD), plus a few others that I haven't heard anything from yet, but am optimistic about.

my advice to you as a listener would be to worry a bit less about the big picture and enjoy this intensely creative period while we're still in the midst of it, because it obviously won't last forever (but I'm also personally not worried about it ending too soon).

[efrendv]

Originally Posted by Gary Sisco

True that just about everything settles into its own kind of approach, after a while, but I also recall many saying that free improv had hit the end of its road, for those reasons -- only to have eai etc come along and completely alter the picture.

I hadn't looked at it from this point of view, to be honest. However, I think that eai has no practical ties with what I perceive as "free improv" as a genre. Imho, they have little in common, besides the theoretical lack of preconceived ideas (I insist, theoretical); for me they're entirely different languages. Probably eai it's currently a much more rewarding experience because the musicians involved are (or were at least) in the first stages of learning that language and, in these cases, babbling can be the more enrichening for both the performer and the audience. Unfortunately, my view is that most "free-improv" musicians know their speaches too well to conceive something that's really spontaneous and fresh. That's why I wonder whether the tendency may be to "maximalize" things, to deprive this music from even more "musical aspects", etc. (I guess it's clear that when I say "musical" I'm impliying a broader, mainstream conception of the term)

I'd never have predicted metal developing into anything that would interest me before this year's encounter with Sunno))) and also with other noise/drone-type things that haven't a name, yet, with me, so I'll not be making many predictions about where things will go -- and certainly not of the "death" of anything.

The same happened to me last year after discovering Sunn O))), Earth, Asva, etc. I found a long-forgotten excitement with metal music, Fantomas and a few other exceptions aside. IN this case my interest waned much faster than with most other genres, though.

I also think Otomo is getting into some interesting and worthwhile shit with his New Jazz Orchestra (ONJO) that certainly bears watching.

I generally find Otomo's work fascinating, and I think that even his jazz ensembles are more interesting than the average. I ordered the two ONJO on Doubtmusic a couple of days ago. Let's see. I remember feeling quite annoyed by Sachiko's sinewaves on the first ONJQ release on Tzadik. I thought she didn't add anything significant to the band's sound in that particular case, but I like the idea of Otomo approaching Dolphy's material. I can see why someone really tired of jazz wouldn't feel that excited, though.

[Jon Abbey]

Efren, with all due respect, my suggestion would be to listen more and make less overarching statements. I think you'll find that the more you explore 'eai', that not many generalizations really hold water. if you give me an idea of what you've heard, I'd be happy to try to point you to other exciting musicians/areas that maybe you haven't heard yet.

[efrendv]

Originally Posted by Jon Abbey

to an extent here you're confusing the source with the results. the overall result is what matters in collective improv, not how the individuals produce their sounds.

Sure, to an extent. But my point is that an empty turntable is in theory much more limited a source than, say, an electric guitar. Of course, it's all up to the musician's inventiveness, but in actual fact, the more resources available, the more productive I should be- again, it's all theory. Sometimes a Terry Bozzio-sized drumkit is not enough to convey a single idea.

well, only time will tell. like I said or implied above, if I can't find/put together records I'm excited enough about releasing to spend my time and money on, then I'll stop.

Which is really commendable a vision, if you ask me.

my advice to you as a listener would be to worry a bit less about the big picture and enjoy this intensely creative period while we're still in the midst of it, because it obviously won't last forever (but I'm also personally not worried about it ending too soon).

Denying that I tend to be catrastophist would be lying! But I did want to hear some other perspectives on this, since I've read so much about this particular scene on this board. I'm all ears to what 2006 may bring.

[efrendv]

Originally Posted by Jon Abbey

Efren, with all due respect, my suggestion would be to listen more and make less overarching statements. I think you'll find that the more you explore 'eai', that not many generalizations really hold water. if you give me an idea of what you've heard, I'd be happy to try to point you to other exciting musicians/areas that maybe you haven't heard yet.

I think "overarching" means "general"? "Pompous"? If it's the first case, I speak in these terms because most of the stuff I've listened to shares a common aesthetics that are clearly recognizable. There's definitely some common ground to all the stuff that I've heard so far. I'll appreciate any recommedations from you guys. As I said, I'm out of town, but checking your site, below are the Erstwhile releases I own or remember having listened to:

05: Keith Rowe/Günter Müller/Taku Sugimoto The World Turned Upside Down
006: Kevin Drumm/Martin Tétreault Particles and Smears
010: Günter Müller/Lê Quan Ninh La Voyelle Liquide
011: Otomo Yoshihide/Voice Crack Bits, Bots & Signs
013: Toshimaru Nakamura/Sachiko M do
018: Keith Rowe/Toshimaru Nakamura Weather Sky
021: MIMEO/John Tilbury The Hands Of Caravaggio
022: poire_z +
027: Keith Rowe/Thomas Lehn/Marcus Schmickler Rabbit Run
030-2: Keith Rowe/John Tilbury Duos for Doris
033-040: AMPLIFY 2002: balance box set
043: Keith Rowe/Christian Fennesz Live at the LU


EL005-3 (triple CD): Keith Rowe/Sachiko M/Toshimaru Nakamura/Otomo Yoshihide

[Jon Abbey]

overarching does mean general, yes, definitely not pompous. my experience is that sometimes people like to speak in generalities about this area of music, but upon closer examination, quite often the reason they do that is there are major sections they're not familiar with.

the first thing that jumps out from that list is the lack of any releases from the Vienna scene, I'd suggest Too Beautiful to Burn (031), schnee_live (EL 003), eh (025), Schnee (008), and Wrapped Islands (023), roughly in that order, although I don't think you can go too wrong within that group. that's a whole different world from anything you listed above, to start.

[efrendv]

I see "overarching" is indeed "general". Could be but, let's be honest, it's just the same type of generalization as issuing a death certificate for a particular style of music, and I say this with zero bitterness.

I look forward to your recommendations.

[efrendv]

Originally Posted by Jon Abbey

overarching does mean general, yes, definitely not pompous. my experience is that sometimes people like to speak in generalities about this area of music, but upon closer examination, quite often the reason they do that is there are major sections they're not familiar with.

the first thing that jumps out from that list is the lack of any releases from the Vienna scene, I'd suggest Too Beautiful to Burn (031), schnee_live (EL 003), eh (025), Schnee (008), and Wrapped Islands (023), roughly in that order, although I don't think you can go too wrong within that group. that's a whole different world from anything you listed above, to start.

Ok. I'll include these in a future order and let you know my impressions, if you're curious.

[Jon Abbey]

I'd also say you need Good Morning Good Night (042), as that would be the one disc I'd choose if someone asked me for one release that points to potential directions for 2006 and beyond.

[Jon Abbey]

Originally Posted by efrendv

I see "overarching" is indeed "general". Could be but, let's be honest, it's just the same type of generalization as issuing a death certificate for a particular style of music, and I say this with zero bitterness.

no bitterness here either, no worries. and if you'd spent more time with this music, I'd take your overarching statements more seriously. I'd be happy to hear something that makes me rethink my "jazz died in 1975" belief, but until then, I'm sticking with that.

and yes, of course, I'm interested in your impressions. as always, the more one listens (either to one record, or to an area of music in general), the more interesting these impressions tend to be. one reason my man Bivins does probably a better job reviewing "eai" records than anyone else around today is that he really lets them simmer in his brain for months before trying to explain his feelings about them to others.

[letchhausen]

I'm reposting this from somewhere else because I think that it addresses some of this discussion, though Jon's heard it before. I was responding the topics of spent forms (jazz and eai) and too many eai releases. Someone thought that eai was dead as of the Amplify box and that no one would be listening to this music in the future and Bailey trumps Rowe. I disagreed. The person also professed that they were much more interested in noise/lo-fi these days.

efrendv don't take this as directly responsive to your posting since it was written in response to someone else, but I think is relevant to this discussion.

Originally Posted by jon abbey

I'd be happy to hear something that makes me rethink my "jazz died in 1975" belief, but until then, I'm sticking with that.

Most hilarious to me was Derek Bailey saying in that interview that jazz was dead after 1956!

I don't want to take up contra causes here but feel that Bailey and Rowe are both artists that offer a lot in variation. Recently I saw Keith 5 times in one week and he played differently in every context. Perhaps the palette seems similar but the stategies with which he employs it varies greatly in different situations.

I find it interesting that this person says that they're more into noise/lo-fi stuff at a time when the recent Erstquake bore out that many in the taomud scene are blowing out into larger noise dynamics. Recent spins of some No Fun stuff (Wolf Eyes, Hair Police, Dilloway, Hive Mind etc) and some of the Iberian crew (Fages, Barberan, Costa Monteiro etc) made me feel that there's still a lot happening with noise. I've found the juxtaposition vis a vis eai to be useful in terms of listening. When I hear something like Atolon or Octante then you hear a more subtle exposition of noise (sometimes jaw dropping and ear-splitting) with far more nuance. However the No Fun crew are experts in stupid explosivity and inherent (and sometimes laughable) darkness that the more objective exposition of the Iberian crew doesn't have. You pays your money........

I also don't understand the problem with releasing material. Nobody has a gun to our heads to purchase and listen. I have a friend who reads reviews and let's me sort some of the wheat from the chaff and then makes his purchases. He doesn't feel that all this stuff is worth his time to be an obsessive like me but definitely feels that there is enough going on here that he does want to hear and purchase stuff.

As for dead scenes, well if yr talking about innovation or advancement I think it's a little early to pull the plug on eai. As for whether or not people will be listening to this in the future, I guarantee it. The same way that the history of recorded music of all sorts, from discs like Document's "The Earliest Negro Vocal Groups" (basically barber shop type quartets from the 1890's) to Artaud and Kurt Schwitters vocal recordings ( I bet a lot of people back in those days had no idea that we'd still be listening to that in the new millenium) to everything going on since. Take a look at ebay, the internet, soulseek etc. There are tons of compilations there are now full of hardcore singles of the early 80's? There are plenty of people obsessed by sound and it's history.

I don't think every cdr released is going be desirable but there will be something akin to the Broken Music book for artists recordings that will compile huge discographies of all this stuff and ebay will full of people tracking this stuff down. The book will be written by Richard Pinnell who will become a jillionaire in old age selling off his gigantic eai collection and retire to a south sea island.