'Imitation' Jazz

[John P. Cooper]

In a thread about boogie-woogie, a forum poster recommended a present day boogie woogie pianist to an inquiring mind seeking good boogie woogie to listen to.

A couple of other posters shot down this suggestion (and apparently not having heard the artist in question, in any event) by posing the question - why listen to imitation boogie woogie when you can hear authentic boogie woogie?

This struck me as absurb.

Why is the practise of a Jazz style by a current performer termed "imitation"?

Where does the 'authentic' music end and the 'imitation' music begin?

And for some reason, the notion seems even more absurd when confined to the art of Jazz perfromed on a solo instrument like piano.

[Pete C]

I don't see playing in historic styles "imitation". Some players, like stride specialist Mike Lipskin, studied with the masters like Willie the Lion. Django-style gypsy jazz is an active style played by many young musicians who truly capture the spirit, and sometimes make innovations within the form.

[Gary Sisco]

One of my oldtime pals is a "gypsy jazz" guy of some note. Will Patton, an extraordinarily talented mandolin player (and bassist, guitarist, etc.). He has several CDs out, if anyone's interested.

I asked him why the label of "gypsy jazz" when what they're playing is traditionally known as swing. He didn't really have an answer. It's just what people are calling it.

[John P. Cooper]

Originally Posted by Pete C

I don't see playing in historic styles "imitation". Some players, like stride specialist Mike Lipskin, studied with the masters like Willie the Lion.

I think that is a perfect example of non-'imitation' Jazz.

[Nate Dorward]

Originally Posted by Gary Sisco

One of my oldtime pals is a "gypsy jazz" guy of some note. Will Patton, an extraordinarily talented mandolin player (and bassist, guitarist, etc.). He has several CDs out, if anyone's interested.

I asked him why the label of "gypsy jazz" when what they're playing is traditionally known as swing. He didn't really have an answer. It's just what people are calling it.

Well, "swing" can mean a lot of styles of music but "gypsy jazz" = "in the style of Djano Reinhardt" presumably.

[Jon Abbey]

Originally Posted by John P. Cooper

Where does the 'authentic' music end and the 'imitation' music begin?

1975.

[Gary Sisco]

Yeah but Django played in a style called swing in its day. It wasn't considered "Gypsy" anything.

Anyway, if anyone's interested, check my friend Will Patton. He was the first cat I ever heard play real bebop on a mandolin, years before I'd heard of the others with bigger names who've done it since, and he's doing it still. He's also way into Brazilian music. A real master.

[VIBEr]

I play with a gypsy-jazz group about six times a year as an accordion player, subbing for either the violin player or one of the guitar players. In my mind, what makes it "gypsy-jazz" is not only the obvious Grappelli-Reinhardt association, but also the absence of drums, being all-acoustic, the always-present rhythm guitar due to having two guitar players, the two-beat bass, playing many of the pop standards from that era, and emphasis on swing chord changes as opposed to reharmonized bop chord changes.

I've often wondered whether bluegrass preceded Django, although I somehow doubt that Django actually heard any bluegrass until much later if at all. There was a group that Buell Neidlinger led called "Buellgrass" that played a very progressive cross of gypsy-jazz and bluegrass, and they were contemporaries of the guys who played the music that became known as newgrass. The band included Richard Greene on fiddle, Andy Statman on mandolin, and the late Peter Ivers on harmonica. I think their record is still available at Buell's website, and they also did a pretty good record called "Swinggrass '83" which was their only major-label release.

[walto]

Quote:

Originally Posted by John P. Cooper
Where does the 'authentic' music end and the 'imitation' music begin?

1975.

That would knock out Braxton's Creative Orchestra Music.

[Nate Dorward]

Django preceded bluegrass, of course. Bill Monroe debuted the style with the Grand Ole Opry in 1939.

[VIBEr]

Originally Posted by Nate Dorward

Django preceded bluegrass, of course. Bill Monroe debuted the style with the Grand Ole Opry in 1939.

Nate, do you know if there is any admission by Bill Monroe of having heard Django prior to 1939 (most likely on record than in person)?

[Pete C]

It's probably only Gypsy jazz by association. After Django the style was pretty much dormant until there was a movement in France among Manouches or Gitanes (I could never figure out whether the two terms refer to different groups) to revive the form, so most of the players happen to have been "Gypsies."

The recent Django bio is pretty informative, and this page is interesting:

http://www.rootsworld.com/rw/feature/gypsy1.html

[John P. Cooper]

Are the Jazz players of today. working in styles previously developed, producing 'imitation' Jazz?

[Vince Kargatis]

Originally Posted by walto

1975.
That would knock out Braxton's Creative Orchestra Music.

Is there a reason you think Jon thinks that album violates his dictum? It's not like most of us don't have a large list of albums we disagree with him on...

[me wag]

I kind of wondered myself about the need for the term "Gypsy Jazz" until I discovered that there was this huge Django-obsessed subculture out there, complete with Trekkie-like conventions. There's a documentary out about this phenomenom called Djangomania! VIBEr does a real good job of describing this little sub-genre that has sprung out from this. I would imagine that it's favored, in part, by people who like bluegrass but don't always like the hillbilly associations.

[John P. Cooper]

A thread for 'Gypsy Jazz'-

http://jazzcornertalk.com/speakeasy/...356#post565356

[clinthopson]

Do you think the Djangoites are obsessed with his playing or the legend?

Django's music is pretty accessible tho'.

[Gary Sisco]

Django preceded bluegrass by many years. I doubt if the two had much if any influence on the other. Bill Monroe basically sped up by several factors what would now be called Kentucky mountain music in old-timey, stringband circles. Of course swing music was ubiquitous on American radio so who knows, but bluegrass tends to be two-beat music and swing four. It swings in the right hands but in a different way from jazz.

Grappeli was as important as Django in that old scene, which was called "hot" jazz originally, with swing being a bit later term.

For those interested, here's link to my friend's website. http://www.wpatton.com/ He's made himself a fixture in mandolin and "gypsy jazz" circles over the years. He was the first person I ever heard (including on records) play real bebop on a mandolin, no joking around, nothing gimmicky, talking straight ahead bebop. He's also an excellent jazz bassist. We've been friends since late teens and have played a lot of music together.

[Hot Ptah]

Actually the thread in question involved a young person asking for a recommendation for a first boogie woogie album as a gift for an older relative. A poster recommended a particular modern musician, who is not well known, explaining that he is a master of the style of Jerry Lee Lewis, among others.

Some posters gave the opinion that a CD by Albert Ammons, Meade Lux Lewis, Jimmy Yancey, or Pete Johnson, or various compilation boogie woogie CDs, might be better as a first boogie woogie album.

I do not recall a general condemnation on that thread of all modern players who are working in a previous style. In fact, the posters who recommended the Ammons, Lewis, Yancey, Johnson and compilation CDs often praise present day musicians who work in earlier styles.

In any event, in my opinion, if one eliminates all modern musicians working in any previous style from serious attention, there would be little jazz of today to listen to.

[walto]

Originally Posted by Vince Kargatis

Is there a reason you think Jon thinks that album violates his dictum? It's not like most of us don't have a large list of albums we disagree with him on...

It was by way of a suggestion--that I thought Jon might possibly go for--to move his date up a year or two.

[John P. Cooper]

Originally Posted by Hot Ptah

Actually the thread in question involved a young person asking for a recommendation for a first boogie woogie album as a gift for an older relative. A poster recommended a particular modern musician, who is not well known, explaining that he is a master of the style of Jerry Lee Lewis, among others.

Some posters gave the opinion that a CD by Albert Ammons, Meade Lux Lewis, Jimmy Yancey, or Pete Johnson, or various compilation boogie woogie CDs, might be better as a first boogie woogie album.

I do not recall a general condemnation on that thread of all modern players who are working in a previous style. In fact, the posters who recommended the Ammons, Lewis, Yancey, Johnson and compilation CDs often praise present day musicians who work in earlier styles.

In any event, in my opinion, if one eliminates all modern musicians working in any previous style from serious attention, there would be little jazz of today to listen to.

These are the exact quotes and you can see that one post essentially condemns or writes off any musician not part of a specific group....and I am niot even sure what that group is, but apparently whatever that group might be, poster number 2 considered it "imitation" and "emulation"


Poster 1 - "As far as I know, the best boogie piano player around is Carl "Sonny" Leyland. He is an authority on boogie styles from Cow Cow Davenport to Jerry Lee Lewis, and an authority on all styles of pre-bop jazz piano."
-----------------------------
Poster 2 - "I'm sure Mr. Leyland boogie woogies faithfully, but--as Hot Ptah infers, why settle for imitation? Whwn it comes to emulation, we have our own Dick Hymans Do your mother's ears not deserve the very best, original and unadulterated? "
--------------------------------------------
Poster 1 - "Immitation.... If you think like that, why buy anything new. I'm not going argue with you that original sources are a good way to go, but why be so pejorative about somebody you haven't even listened to?"

And there is the heart of a fascinating topic - is Jazz "imitation" if not performed by specific artists?

[John P. Cooper]

By the above definition of "imitation" Jazz, Fats Waller plays imitation stride piano. Someone taught him the style as was already being played, making Waller a 2nd generation stride pianist and an "imitation" of his predecessors.

[rollhead]

Originally Posted by John P. Cooper

Are the Jazz players of today. working in styles previously developed, producing 'imitation' Jazz?

Try the Beau Hunks.

For stride, try Ralph Sutton. Or does he count? He recently died I think.

[Vince Kargatis]

Originally Posted by walto

It was by way of a suggestion--that I thought Jon might possibly go for--to move his date up a year or two.

Ah. It would surprise me if Jon were unfamiliar with Braxton's (significant) 1976 year. My guess is that he just doesn't think much of Braxton, maybe outside For Alto and (being a little crazy here) the first two Aristas.

[JamesH]

Well I don't know about the specific use of the word imitation, but the so called young lions of the 80's and beyond were referred to as more or less imitators. Imitators in nice suits no less. Oh the horrors.

[JamesH]

If jazz is defined only in terms of pure invention, the vast majority of jazz musicians have been imitators. And only a handful, those who've changed the music, were actually playing jazz, and then only some of the time.

[rollhead]

Originally Posted by Vince Kargatis

Ah. It would surprise me if Jon were unfamiliar with Braxton's (significant) 1976 year. My guess is that he just doesn't think much of Braxton, maybe outside For Alto and (being a little crazy here) the first two Aristas.

My guess is that he just doesn't think much at all.

[Jon Abbey]

Rollhead is an imitation human being, the Cheez Whiz of people.

1975 is my obviously somewhat arbitrary line, since that's when Miles left. the vast majority of jazz since then has been concerned with rehashing the past in one way or another. clearly everyone didn't magically go from playing "authentic" to "imitation" jazz on the same day, but 1975 is as good a date as any for the question I was answering.

[Pete C]

The era of imitation room tone starts any day now.

[Jon Abbey]

Originally Posted by Pete C

The era of imitation room tone starts any day now.

plenty of "imitation" or subpar/uninspired EAI out there already.