The Health Care "Debate"

[Jeffrey Wozniak]

Originally Posted by walto

I think you're generally correct about goody's near-blindness to flaws in his party or union, but, to be fair, he's already given an example of a disagreement with the majority party. He's said he'd have liked to see a public option in the Senate bill.

Fair enough. That's one. A few more examples would make me feel better.

[Jeffrey Wozniak]

Originally Posted by walto

Nope. You're just not keeping up with some of the goose steps.

Without reading through all that mumbo jumbo (it's Saturday and I'm just too fucking lazy today) if you could explain it to me in a paragraph or so I'll tell you what I think about it.

Fair enough?

[walto]

Well, it seems that that section includes language purporting to prevent its amendment or repeal by any future Congress. The right--from LaRouche to Palin is having a grand mal about it, and suits have been threatened. Personally, I highly doubt that language will be in the conference committee report, but even if it were to be signed into law it wouldn't have any effect, so who gives a shit.

[stonemonkts]

The one page essay James Surowiecki writes in The New Yorker (which I firmly believe is more cogent than the typical multi-page Paumgarten piece) covered the Healthcare Plan on January 4, titled "Fifth Wheel". I agree with every word he wrote.

http://www.newyorker.com/talk/financ...alk_surowiecki

[Jeffrey Wozniak]

Originally Posted by walto

Well, it seems that that section includes language purporting to prevent its amendment or repeal by any future Congress. The right--from LaRouche to Palin is having a grand mal about it, and suits have been threatened. Personally, I highly doubt that language will be in the conference committee report, but even if it were to be signed into law it wouldn't have any effect, so who gives a shit.

Well, if it will have no effect then I agree with you: who gives a shit.

However, why go through all this trouble to sign it into law in the first place if it is meaningless? What's the point?

What's the point of signing something into law if it's not really a law? Is it all for show? Are both sides of this debate just acting like this health care bill really means something?

Do we really pay these people six times as much as I make a year to make very poor B movies?

[gonzo]

is dead. farewell public option. without it whats the point.

[walto]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Wozniak

Well, if it will have no effect then I agree with you: who gives a shit.

However, why go through all this trouble to sign it into law in the first place if it is meaningless? What's the point?

What's the point of signing something into law if it's not really a law? Is it all for show? Are both sides of this debate just acting like this health care bill really means something?

Do we really pay these people six times as much as I make a year to make very poor B movies?

As I said, I very much doubt that provision will be signed into law. IMO, it will be out of the Conference Committee report.

[walto]

Originally Posted by gonzo

is dead. farewell public option. without it whats the point.

There are still several points. Exclusion for pre-existing conditions is one. Coverage of millions who now can't afford insurance is another. The problem isn't that it doesn't do anything, it's that what it does will be too expensive for nearly everybody besides insurers and providers to put up with. Then, I fear, the baby will be drowned.

[Steve Reynolds]

the problem is that the promise/platitude was that the bill would do all those things with no cost added

hence it was a lie

the only solution has to do with increasing competition and not with the government via the public option - this would completely eliminate competition

then again few here believe in competition or the marketplace so my point is unheard here and therefore moot


what we will get is increased costs and coverage for some that didn't have coverage before - but the help only comes a few years from now while the costs come now via charges, taxes and more of the same


plus lots of favors for those who wrote the bill for their party in order to get them all to say yes



good job, good ol' boys

[walto]

the only solution has to do with increasing competition and not with the government via the public option - this would completely eliminate competition

I think that's completely wrong. Have public universities completely eliminated competition? Have FAIRPlans? Has USPS package delivery? The public option would have been a tremendous help in keeping costs down. Fox notwithstanding, there are no important barriers to competition at present.

In addition it is increasing provider/hospital concentration (i.e., non-competition by private entities who generally buy out their competitors) is the main cost driver of the present system.

[Jeffrey Wozniak]

Originally Posted by walto

As I said, I very much doubt that provision will be signed into law. IMO, it will be out of the Conference Committee report.

I understand that Walter. If I'm reading you correctly then you believe the provision is meaningless either way.

What I don't understand is the back and forth on this issue if it will either a) not even be in the final bill or b) as you mentioned above won't have any effect if it is left in. Why put it in there in the first place if it is meaningless? Is this just another "feel good" thing the Dems are throwing out there to appease a certain segment of the population? If this is the case then it is safe to assume that the Dems in Congress feel that their base isn't very intelligent.

[walto]

You really think it makes sense to judge the intelligence of the Dem. base by a couple paragraphs in a bill that's over 1000 pages long? That's just more silly focus on a stupid issue. As to why it was put in in the first place, I agree that was dumb.

[Steve Reynolds]

The Post Office is subsidized by taxes to make them competitive. If they lowered the Post Office rates lower than UPS or FED Ex it would put thme out of business.

If the public option is made less expensive it would simply eliminate private insurance. If it was to be made less expensive taxpayers would pay for the difference.

How would the public option keep costs down, Walter?

[walto]

Naturally, if the public suppliers are subsidized to an excessive level they can put private suppliers out of business. The House version prohibits that. Public competitors compete by eschewing excessive profits, administrative costs, salaries, dividends, etc.

[Jeffrey Wozniak]

Wouldn't the federal government set a much better example for private companies by walking the walk instead of just talking the talk? Maybe by reducing its own incredibly high administrative costs (which is paid for by you and me, and unlike with a private company we don't have the option of not paying for it), eliminating mounds of red tape, etc?

This bill may say that's what it's going to do, but then again this is the federal government talking...

[walto]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Wozniak

Wouldn't the federal government set a much better example for private companies by walking the walk instead of just talking the talk? Maybe by reducing its own incredibly high administrative costs (which is paid for by you and me, and unlike with a private company we don't have the option of not paying for it), eliminating mounds of red tape, etc?

This bill may say that's what it's going to do, but then again this is the federal government talking...

You sound as afraid of a public option as the insurers who spent tens of millions of dollars spreading that kind of nonsense so you could pass it along to us here. I like the fact that tape is red only when it's not private bureaucrats spreading it. The main reason the insurers pay any benefits at all is that regulators make them (in spite of how nice they are in commercials).

[gonzo]

the senators,congress, all get government health care.. they seem to like it. the AMA is too powerful. drs. as millionaires. after losing job my i am relegated to applying for medical,california's version of medicare. all my primary caregivers have told me that they will refuse to accept it. diabetes,IBS, colon problems, without the public option i'm fucked... COBRA is too high for me with unemployment. will all you anti health care reform care cats please pay my bills.
totally off subject, mr. wozniak are you an artist? in the 90s there was a comic book artist with the same name. if i've asked you this already please for give me.

[Jeffrey Wozniak]

I am not a comic book artist, although I have played one on TV in the past...


Also, you are correct in saying that Congress likes their health insurance. I'm sure that I would like having their health insurance plans as well. However, do you really think that we will get the same coverage and treatment that they get? If so then Congress will have no problem putting a provision in the bill stating that they are only allowed to have the exact same coverage that the rest of us will be forced to accept.

Don't hold your breath on that one though. If such a provision is in the bill then I will stand corrected (and will also be quite stunned).

[LennyH]

The insurance that Congress has is more akin to what is being proposed in the senate bill than to what we would call a "public option".

A non-profit exchange buys their insurance from private sources if I understand correctly.

[GoodSpeak]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Wozniak

Tim,

The broken record you are playing needs a thorough cleaning. It's one thing to be a blue-blooded Dim, just as I consider myself a tried and true conservative, but this is getting really old.

Is there anything the Democratic Party or the Teacher's Union can do that you oppose? Can you give us any example in which you said either is/was wrong in the recent past?

A short list would be preferable to you pointing out how horrible the right is and ripping on Bush & Co. again (a small hint: they are not in office anymore).

BTW-What happen to the Sheesh? Did you rig his car with plastic explosives or something?

The truth isn't a broken record, Wozzie. You just don't want to hear it is all.

Oppose? The Race To The Top is fundamentally flawed and exhibits the same one-size-fits-all mentality that No Child Left Behind does.

The Bush Reich may not be in office, but their failed policies still are in effect. You may have also noticed the economic crash and an unprovoked war in Iraq as well....I won't speculate.

I don't know and no.


Now then, I pose the very same questions to you regarding your conservatives. How 'bout it, Wozzie?

[baksheesh]

Once again, from a European perspective this debate is disgusting on many levels. Public and Private health care both have a place, and our private health care industry is nowhere near as mercenary and blatantly profiteering as that in the U.S. What's most nauseating though are the constant cries of 'socialism!, socialism!' as though there's something inherently wrong with looking out for the weaker members of society.
Wonkiak in particular has made some egregiously unpleasant and extremely misanthropic comments. Personally I hope he finds himself at some point in his life, very down on his luck and needing some fucking assistance from the society that he lives in, which might give him some perspective on common human decency, and why a society should reflect those values rather than a dog eat dog, fuck you Jack mentality.

[GoodSpeak]

Excellent post, BakSheesh.


Well said.

[baksheesh]

Originally Posted by GoodSpeak

Excellent post, BakSheesh.


Well said.

Thanks Tim. Hope you had a great holiday. I hear you've got upcoming surgery, I sincerely hope it all goes smoothly.

[Jeffrey Wozniak]

My friend the Sheesh has returned!!

Greetings, old chap! I thought Goodie had disposed of your body in a dumpster or something like that. Here's hoping all is well with you, and also with Tim (was unaware of his pending operation).

[Jeffrey Wozniak]

Originally Posted by baksheesh

Wonkiak in particular has made some egregiously unpleasant and extremely misanthropic comments.

I'm amused at the way you feel that every comment I make that doesn't gel with your notion of how things should be is so obscene that it must be shouted down as if I'm endorsing the mass rape of zebras.

A little less drama may suit you better my friend.

[GoodSpeak]

Originally Posted by baksheesh

Thanks Tim. Hope you had a great holiday. I hear you've got upcoming surgery, I sincerely hope it all goes smoothly.

Thanks, Jesse.


So far, all seems to be going according to the doctor's plan. Now the rehab begins....

[GoodSpeak]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Wozniak

I'm amused at the way you feel that every comment I make that doesn't gel with your notion of how things should be is so obscene that it must be shouted down as if I'm endorsing the mass rape of zebras.

A little less drama may suit you better my friend.

Saved for posterity, Wozzie.



Heed your own advice.

[baksheesh]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Wozniak

I'm amused at the way you feel that every comment I make that doesn't gel with your notion of how things should be is so obscene that it must be shouted down as if I'm endorsing the mass rape of zebras.

A little less drama may suit you better my friend.

Suitably arbitrary and bizarre metaphor. I feel the inescapable urge to call you on your idiocy every now and again Jeffrey. I only mention the 'obscene' stuff, because it's too absurd not to be drawn attention to. Don't pretend you're being reasonable Wonkiak - you're about a ten minute walk from the last bus stop on the route back to reason. I usually picture you as drooling on your bib as you post, whilst Nursey inserts ostrich feathers up your arse.

[Jeffrey Wozniak]

Originally Posted by baksheesh

I usually picture you as drooling on your bib as you post, whilst Nursey inserts ostrich feathers up your arse.

I do drool occasionally, if the wife tries to entice me. The feather thing is a little much though...

I see you are in good spirits, my friend. Hope all is well.

[baksheesh]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey Wozniak

I do drool occasionally, if the wife tries to entice me. The feather thing is a little much though...

I see you are in good spirits, my friend. Hope all is well.

Glad to hear it. Likewise. Just keep feeding me those lines and my Muse will keep tenderly caressing me.




P.S. If you can't handle ostrich feathers (they are rather large after all) why not suggest that Nursey start with those of songbirds, and then work your way up throught to the really big hitters, like peacock's tail feathers, emus, albatrosses, and the afore mentioned ostrich as your grand finale?