Simple poll about readers - plz respond

[Vince Kargatis]

Let's keep this very simple. I'm not that concerned with textual responses, I just want to see as much statistical weight/response as possible. (I'm trying to have some sort of "real" evidence about musician-percentage of jazz listeners, to provide in a discussion on r.m.b.) I feel comfortable with the binary choice, since it's a purely subjective response.

[Tanager]

I have to admit...I'm not comfortable picking one of the two choices, since I'd like to see some distinction between hobbyists and pros. (I'm a hobbyist. If pushed to choose here, I'd say "no," b/c "I'm a musician" without any further qualification implies being a pro to me.)

[Vince Kargatis]

"musician" = "pro"? I've never thought of it that way, hardly even makes sense to me. "Musician" to me means someone who "makes music" as an intentioned, at least partly serious endeavor. Amateur music-makers are without question "musicians" in my mind. What does money exchange or career choice have to do with the actual activity, anyway?

[Tanager]

Originally posted by Vince Kargatis
Amateur music-makers are without question "musicians" in my mind. What does money exchange or career choice have to do with the actual activity, anyway?

I thought you said you it was a subjective question? I gave my interpretation, man. Feel free to disagree. I just don't feel comfortable saying, "I'm a musician," since to me that implies something more than what I do.

[Gentle Giant]

I actually voted against my conscience. I voted no, although I began playing drums as a hobby 35 years ago (with a 10-year hiatus between drum sets). While I've always been interested in breaking down the barriers between performers and audiences, and I envy cultures where everyone sings, everyone dances, everyone plays music because it's ingrained in the daily life and rituals of the community - and no one feels self-conscious because they aren't schooled in music - I also respect trained musicians too much to include myself in their realm. I play and sing because it's fun and it gets me deeper into music appreciation, but I can't bring myself to call myself a musician as an identity thing the way I can say I'm a writer.

Thanks for exposing me as a hypocrite!

[Tanager]

GG, that was my take as well.

[blawless]

I can see why Vince said he wasn't interested in textual responses!

[Jazzzoline]

Where's the "all of the above" choice ?

[Vince Kargatis]

Originally posted by Tanager
I thought you said you it was a subjective question?

And it remains so, of course.

I gave my interpretation, man. Feel free to disagree. I just don't feel comfortable saying, "I'm a musician," since to me that implies something more than what I do.

Sure. I didn't mean to sound confrontational, but your distinction threw me, particularly since I interpret "pro" as implying exchange of moneys. A school teacher that played piano daily for pleasure, and performed at dinner parties and community recitals, wouldn't be called "musician" in that distinction (which then leaves "non-musician"), which strikes me as very odd. How you identify yourself is certainly up to you, though I phrased the poll as simplistically as I could precisely because I thought that statistically, the definition of "musician" was similar enough among the sample to not need specific defining. Oh well!

Now, GG's take is within the kind of subjective judgment I expected - it was the "pro"/vocational distinction alone that caused my bewilderment.

Jazzoline: the options are quite literally mutually exclusive: one is positive, and one is non-positive. :) "No", as a non-positive, does include "unsure", I'd say.

[Jazzzoline]

Originally posted by Vince Kargatis

Jazzoline: the options are quite literally mutually exclusive: one is positive, and one is non-positive. "No", as a non-positive, does include "unsure", I'd say.

hmm.. really?

[Dennis Gonzalez]

A musician is one who plays an instrument or sings or conducts and a certain level of music happens (you have to decide if you are at the correct level to be called that).

A master musician (which Vince did not ask for) is one who has achieved mastery over the above variables.

A professional musician is one who is paid for the above.

My students who I teach from scratch to play their instruments and to have a repertoire, I feel are musicians from the time they put together their first song on their chosen instruments. Usually that is a three chord song with lyrics (for the guitarists, for example). They strum the song in rhythm while changing the chord at the right time without faltering and can sing the melody and the lyrics while they are doing that. Far as I'm concerned, they are musicians from that point on.

It's a valid poll, Vincent.

[Tanager]

Okay, Dennis, you've convinced me.

[Gary Sisco]

What about people who used to be musicians, like moi? (I voted no, by the way.)

[Salvador Dali Lama]

musician, professional.

although i make next to nil... it actually pays the rent. rent is 29 bucks a month, but hey.

i'm actually doing this stuff full time.. after i got fired from my last job, i've just been doing the music full time and making do on the extremely meager amount of pay (for the straight ahead gigs, the other stuff pays beer of course). and I was in no small part influenced by what Senor Gonzolez had to say about the stuff.

Aside from the odd frustration in working with some people, I'm quite happy. instead of waking up and going to work moving boxes or something, I wake up and go down to the rehersal space and play some music every day. its good stuff.

now if I could just take care of these holes in my shoes...

[Geoff Pfeifer]

Originally posted by Salvador Dali Lama

now if I could just take care of these holes in my shoes...

Ever try Duck Tape? I have!

[Geoff Pfeifer]

Oh yeah.....in response to the poll....professional musician.

[BFrank]

con·sid·er
Pronunciation: k&n-'si-d&r
Function: verb
Inflected Form(s): con·sid·ered; con·sid·er·ing /-d(&-)ri[ng]/
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French considerer, from Latin considerare to observe, think about, from com- + sider-, sidus heavenly body
Date: 14th century

transitive senses
1 : to think about carefully: as a : to think of especially with regard to taking some action b : to take into account
2 : to regard or treat in an attentive or kindly way
3 : to gaze on steadily or reflectively
4 : to come to judge or classify

[BFrank]

I voted yes, BTW. Even though I haven't picked up an alto sax or guitar in at LEAST 10 years and never played a professional gig in my life.

[Dr Dave]

Now this is interesting. I haven't played a paid gig in some years now, like Gary, but I clicked on "yes" because the last time I played I got paid. I like getting paid as a distinction, for very self-serving reasons, among which, it doesn't say anything one way or another about your mastery of the instrument (voice, guitar, bass, and trumpet in my case, and more or less in that descending order of mastery).

I'm not trying to be self-deprecating, either, in case a reader might interpret it that way. My taste is above my abilities, and that's a fact of my life. It doesn't stop me from playing, though--especially when I can get paid!

[moneyp]

I clicked "no," even though I have been paid to play music in the past. I haven't picked up my axe in months, so I don't consider myself a musician, I consider myself an "ex-musician" and will continue to do so until I actually start making music again.

[Cem]

Wouldn't a musician be anyone who can "speak and understand" the "language of music"?

[GoodSpeak]

I am a trumpet player usedtobe still wannabe.


But I still consider myself a student of the instrument.




TimMc

[Ron Thorne]

Originally posted by Cem
Wouldn't a musician be anyone who can "speak and understand" the "language of music"?

Works for me, CEM!

I consider myself a musician for a couple of simple reasons; I've been deeply immersed in music for over 45 years and have played musical instruments (drums/percussion) for most of that time ... since the age of 13. My declaration has more to do with my commitment and level of involvement than my own prowess, though I've played professionally since I was 16. I'm not deluded, either. I fully understand that while I'm not on the level of Roy Haynes or my teacher, Alan Dawson, I'm also not a slouch.

I've been fortunate to teach privately for over 20 years, as well as to conduct workshops for high schools and colleges. Even with long distances between gigs, the young people I work with keep me honest and on-my-toes, musically and otherwise.

I don't understand why some people feel that they're no longer "musicians" because they haven't played their chosen axe for some time or have never been paid. "Rust" or lack of opportunity does not equal lack of passion, understanding, commitment or ability. I've been rusty many times, but never not considered myself a musican because of that. I've also played without remuneration, but never doubted that I was a musican because of that, either. In fact, I hadn't played with a group on a regular basis in about ten years, after my last group (The Urban Jazz Ensemble) disbanded when our pianist moved to Paris ... until six months ago. Now, I'm having a blast playing with a quartet who enjoys interpreting many genres, from blues to classic rock, country, jazz, funk, etc., so, I'm "back in the saddle again". Northwest Passage is a great deal of fun, with some dedicated "musicians", all of whom have fulltime day gigs, as well.

We all need to be a "student of the instrument" always... forever, Goodspeak.

[Vince Kargatis]

I'm an ex-musician also. Played alto sax for 14 years from 6th grade to graduate school. I no longer do, and haven't picked it up in years; and in my mind, am not a current musician in any way. Ron, I think one answer to your question is one of intent; others you spelled out: "lack of passion, understanding, commitment or ability". Both apply to me and my non-musician status, in spite of my probable ability to pick up a sax and play some bebop heads from memory, albeit rather poorly, I'm sure.

I'll admit the fraction of self-identified musicians in the poll is higher than I'd expect (I've always been under the impression that musicians don't make up a large fraction of the listener base of any music genre at all - because there seem to be a lot more listeners than musicians in our society, in absolute numbers). I wonder what the various reasons non-respondents have had for not answering (assuming they opened the thread...), aside from Tanager's already stated one.

The pro/amateur distinction regarding the term still bewilders me. Do those making the distinction allow the necessary converse statement? That is, by definition, someone that isn't a "musician" is necessarily a "non-musician". Will an amateur player be termed a "non-musician" in the stated scheme where "musicians" are professional only?

Yep. Poor as a whippoorwill, but, I'm a player and do pretty good on the few and far between gigs that I get. My confidence level is just now at the point (w/a variety background, and heavily woodshedding the past five years)that I can consider myself a jazz musician. Don't mean to imply elitism, just that I'm finally on the threshold of doing/playing the kind of music/art that I want.

[Tanager]

Vince, my initial reason for thinking I'd answer "no" was that, despite the fact that I enjoy playing and practicing, I wouldn't feel comfortable equating what I do (or the level of commitment I make to it) with music with what a professional does. I guess I was trying to err on the side of showing respect to those artists who make this their life's labor.

But given the fact that I play because I love to make music (despite my rather limited results), and I practice assiduously every day, I let Dennis convince me that, yes, I can class myself as a "musician" for the purpose of this poll.

[Grub]

Even though I got to grade 7 on the clarinet and can also play guitar, bass, piano and various types of drums to a decent performance standard I still put 'No'. This is pretty much because I don't earn an income from it. I no longer do many gigs. I dont practice daily and it's really only one of several hobbies of mine.

For me the crunch issue is how good should you be before you could describe yourself as a musician. There've been plenty of 'professional' performers in rock and pop who I dont consider musicians simply because they're not up to scratch.

[Gary Sisco]

Re tastes exceeding ability:

That was a huge part of it for me, too, Doc, to be honest. That and spending most of my life in bars and taverns or talking to assholes on the phone trying to spend even more time in them. In the end, though, it came down to that I didn't have the ability to play the music I wanted to play, and didn't any longer want to play the music I could. If I'd wanted to, I could have gone on making a living (if meager) playing the roadhouses, but once boredom sets in in that game, you're really doomed. So I quit, and thought, probably wrongly, that I was too old to teach myself to play all over again, the right way the second time, so's I could play other stuff. In any case, I was too lazy, whether too old or not. I don't really regret it. I had a lot of fun for a long time and got paid enough so that I rarely had to have a day job, and not for very long when I did.

Anyway, I don't consider myself a musician anymore, because I don't play anymore, even at home or with friends.

[jazzy mary]

I'm not a musician and I wish I could play something. I do love to sing though and my kids tell me I'm good but that doesn't make me a musician. Gary Bartz told me once, very seriously, that I was a musician. I think he meant in my soul.

[Dr Dave]

Sing, Mary! Take a vocal lesson. Join the church choir. Whatever works, you know? I learned how to breathe in my college choir.