Should I close The Alley and Politics

Lois Gilbert · March-25th-2005, 04:07 AM

I don't want to do this as a poll. But I can't stand even glancing over here lately. There's so little joy and fun in your postings, and the nastiness and vile is making IMO. this joint over here in The Alley - exactly that - an alley full of garbage cans full with rats and roaches and other vermin. My message box and emails are full of complaints and comments. People who want to stick around, people who have contributed in almost all areas of this BBS, but are at the point of leaving.

Generally

I would appreciate as you post to also answer some questions. If you can't do it civilly, please don't bother - your comments will be deleted. I'm actually thinking about closing the Alley & Politics for a while, if not permanently. Give me some reasons why I shouldn't or if I should.

I'm feeling, what's the point of keeping it open... You don't support the musicians on Jazzcorner, you don't talk about music, you make it difficult for newcomers to get involved, it's more important to you the quantity of your posts than the quality...

There are 100,000 visitors to this part of Jazzcorner, slightly less than the stats to the client sites. So with 105,000 visitors to the other part of Jazzcorner, I don't really need to keep this board open. For potential advertisers and musicians - well I now just directly them to specific posts because it's embarrassing.

So now here an opportunity to talk to me, state your feelings, and stick to the topic at hand please. You need not to quote other posters on this thread or address them - just post.

Why did you originally come here.

Why did JCS, Jazzonline and the Blue Note boards close?

Trust me, we can use the bandwidth and the space - this cost more time and more money for me that I much rather put into the areas of Jazzcorner where it's need more - like our downloadable site, our new look to jazzcorner, offering more to my clients. So it would be no sweat for me to do it.

Please try post only once and this thread will lock on April 1 and that's when I'll make my decision.

John L · March-25th-2005, 04:47 AM

Lois:

1) By all means, do not close Speakeasy. If it is a matter of money, start up a collection.

2) I share your feelings about the rise in nastiness and personal insults in the forums lately. On the other hand, they seem to reflect personality conflicts between a few posters who I believe would be happy to obey your request to tone it down.

It does not seem to be a problem just in the Alley and Politics forums. Some of the threads in Speakout have become rather nasty as well. In general, I think that having the existence of the Alley and Politics forums is a good way to keep Speakout focused more on jazz. Simply forbidding discussion on any other topic will have an adverse effect on the sense of community here. It will also lead to less hits on Jazz Corner.

I say just lay down the law and remind people that they are guests in your cyberhouse, and that they need to behave accordingly.

John

gonzo · March-25th-2005, 05:26 AM

absolutely do not close Speakeasy. i look forward to reading and participating on it everday or so. it gives me joy.

vibes · March-25th-2005, 05:52 AM

While I agree that there is often a lot of negativity here, I still visit on a daily basis (sometimes several times a day) and search for topics that interest me. I, too, wish that there was more discussion about jazz, but I have still found many threads and comments of value, regardless of the topic. I've learned about new artists and purchased CDs based on recommendations I've gotten here, and that's the part about Speakeasy that makes it most valuable to me.

In short, please do not close it down. It may have its warts, but there is still a lot of value in keeping the board up and running.

walto · March-25th-2005, 06:55 AM

Obviously, whether Jazz Corner keeps the Alley, Politics, and other non-specifically-musical forums up is entirely its own decision that will likely be made on the basis of costs and benefits to JC. But just as obviously, the people who post here (some of us a lot) like it, or we wouldn't do so. What regular Alley user is going to say "No thanks." Threads on politics, humor, sports, gardening, food, paintin, whatever, are fun. Do they benefit JC or its patrons? I don't know--that's really a business decision.

One final point. If there's been a higher quotient of "vile" lately, I haven't seen it. Seems about the same level as always to me--maybe about 5% of posts. If you're getting a bunch of mail, I think it's just a sign that whining has increased. Maybe I'm just missing all the nasty threads, though.

JCS was much much worse. No comparison, really. But if you're really worried about it, I suppose you could screen all new threads for nastiness before they get posted. Anyhow, whatever you decide, good luck with your decision-making and thanks for providing this amazingly entertaining space for as long as you have!

Steve Reynolds · March-25th-2005, 06:59 AM

this is my music board as well, I think

some of us are still posting about music - I am in agreement with you that there is so much garbage being posted (even in the speakout area) that one wonders if many of those who purport to care so much about jazz and music and general really do care.

some people here seem to have a dislike for people - especially if they don't agree with them - one wonders what drives them to make the statements they do. They certainly don't seem to want to discuss the music other than to ridcule the people who have a passion for it.

Cem · March-25th-2005, 07:38 AM

Lois, I understand your concerns. Just so you know, I truly think of this place as part jazz school, part (sort of) intentional community, part therapy central. You are providing the human race with an invaluble service. I think everyone who visits this joint on a regular basis would agree that Jazz Corner has enriched their lives in one way, shape or form. Often, I consider the inhabitants here my chosen extended family. Sometimes, the place seems to have a fine self-correcting mechanism in full action. Other times, negativity & blandness take over. The latter is just a passing phase, I assure you. Probably the winter blahs have got folks down...? Come spring (technically here, right?), we'll be rockin'!

Thank you & peace to you & yours!

tippy · March-25th-2005, 07:54 AM

If we are truly boring, joyless and vile and hurting your website, you already have the answer to your question. That said, I've come here for the camaraderie and have received incalculable enjoyment from time spent at Speakeasy over the past 6 years and I thank you very much for the space you've provided. You are a good person, Lois, and your tireless efforts should result in a product that makes you proud. All good things... (Of course, many of us will go into convulsions at the removal of this space--I hope there will be therapeutic assistance.)

Gary Sisco · March-25th-2005, 07:57 AM

Well, you could always watch your hit count plummet by closing it, but it wouldn't make much business sense.

It wasn't all that long ago that, apart from Robin's thread, posts were answered about once a month, if at all, on the rest of the bbs.

If you want to go back to the oblivion that was JC in those days, pull the plug. It's your joint. Your decision. The people who post here will migrate somewhere else and post there, and then that place's hit count will rise dramatically. So make your choice and be done with it.

Starting this thread is an example of that which concerns you: mindless thinking out loud on the bbs (is what it's called when you don't like what's said -- freedom of speech is what it's called if you do, or if you don't want to control what others say).

I've been guilty many times, certainly, of the same thing, but that's the nature of the beast. Like email, the technology makes it much too easy to hit the send button than the old print media, doubtless. Which is both blessing and curse, as all things are.

As for myself, I'm on my way to being an occasional because JC has become a bore. So that should make for a lighter note for your day, if also a dent in JC's hit count.

Gary Sisco · March-25th-2005, 08:06 AM

Vermin, was a nice, polite touch, I thought. It has a kind of post-Weimar tone to it.

Lenny D.Guitarist · March-25th-2005, 08:11 AM

Honestly, I don't see the negativity and vile comments that you're alluding to. Maybe I've only been reading the non-vile threads.

Brian Olewnick · March-25th-2005, 08:28 AM

Pretty much what Walt said above. You could choose any qualitative aspect--vileness, civility, dreariness, what-have-you--and it would ebb and flow in the perception of people using a board like this. Some national issue arises that hits people deeply, like the Schiavo case, and sure, things flare up. But by and large this is an amazingly civil, high-spirited and downright funny and smart place. Get a couple hundred randomly assembled people off the street and you wouldn't approach the quality of the average poster here. At least as far as what you're perceiving the general character of this place to be, Lois, I think you're assigning too much weight to a small percentage of posts. I mean, the Nagel/Rod Stewart nexus alone outweighs an average day's negativity.

I very much hope you decide to keep Speakeasy around.

Kevin Bresnahan · March-25th-2005, 08:34 AM

What is going on in cyberspace these days? First Organissimo almost implodes and now this? As I said over on the Organissimo board when it started getting nasty, the rules of the board are the cause for the nastiness. What the board needs is tighter rules and better enforcement of those rules. In the end, many people will leave because of the heavy-handedness but the resulting environment is better for all.

The place I cite as having this type of atmosphere is Steve Hoffman's forum. For years I lurked there but stayed out because his "gorts", heavy-handed moderators, seemed to whack people for the most innocent infractions. Now that I see what's happening at the other boards I frequent, I see that they know what they're doing.

In order to make this a better place, we need some tighter rules and a handful of strict moderators.

Later,
Kevin

PS. Steve Hoffman set strict rules for his forum. A few of them go like this:

Forum Etiquette

There are many different types of people who are members at Steve Hoffman Forums, with many different tastes in music, hardware, etc. One of the primary goals of our cyber community is to foster an intelligent, enjoyable, and civil exchange of thoughts and ideas about music and its related topics between our members. You may even make new friends here.

We expect you to respect the opinions of your fellow forum members. Please curb any urge you may have to flippantly dismiss someone's opinion (Examples: "that's stupid", "that's ignorant", "that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard", or "that's bullsh*t").

Since this an open music forum, obviously many different types of music will be discussed. Statements about a members' personal taste in artists or hardware, or negative comments about whole genres of music will not be tolerated (Example: "all rap sucks!"). This also goes for viciously attacking the musical merit of a group or artist (Example: "Creed sucks!"). Note, however, that a civil criticism of an artist is allowed (Example: "I never did care for Creed, I feel the vocalist is copying Eddie Vedder").

Likewise, vicious attacks on an individual *outside* of the forum are not allowed. (Example: "Trent Lott is an *sshole!")

They also have a strict policy against personal attacks. They define it as harrassment. The policy for this is pretty blunt:

Harassment

Harassment occurs when a member insults, attacks, or denigrates another member, either on the public forum, or in a PM (Private Message). We realize that discussions about music can get intense, but we have zero tolerance for taking an argument to a personal level.

Example: The use of terms such as "idiot, moron, stupid" and other derogatory terms constitutes harassment. Likewise, telling a forum member to "go themselves" is also unacceptable.

If a personal attack occurs, the offender with be notified and depending on the severity of the attack, may be suspended.

They try to stop threads from becoming a "free for all" by warning people against "thread crapping" which they state in a policy that says:

Thread Crapping

"Thread Crapping" occurs when a person comes into a thread and posts something contrary to the spirit/intent of the thread, often derailing the discussion or turning it into an argument.

For example, coming into a thread about "The Greatest Beatles Album" and posting "The Beatles were overrated" is a thread crap. Another example: In a thread titled "I love my new Apple Macintosh!" or someone posting "PCs are better and cheaper" is a thread crap.

If you feel the need to turn a discussion into a debate, start a new thread instead.

Lastly, they lay out some restricted topics that are strictly enforced. They are:

Unacceptable Post Content

Please do not post any content of the following nature:

1. Politics

2. Race

3. Religion

4. Abortion

5. The Morality of Homosexuality / Gay Marriage

6. Gun Control

7. Unauthorized advertisements and/or solicitations outside of the Classifieds Forum without the express consent of SH Forums are strictly prohibited. Marketing initiatives whether direct, indirect or veiled are also strictly prohibited.

Example: posting in a forum as a sales rep for ACME LP Cleaner, saying "You guys should check this out, I've tested them all and ACME is the best!" without revealing that you are, in fact, an ACME reseller.

8. Links (or requests for links) to sites that sell (or trade or contain) bootlegs.

9. Trades/requests for CD-R’s of copyrighted material.

10. Debates about who's right: the objectivist or the subjectivist. This includes debate over whether "your ears are better than an ABX/DBT test, and vice versa.

11. Nudity / pornography / blatantly obscene material

12. Links to "Warez" (pirated software) or "Warez" sites

13. Spelling / grammar corrections. If you feel you must correct another member, contact the person via email or though a Private Message. Note: an exception to this rule would be pointing out to someone that they have misspelled an artist's name (for example, Stevie Ray Vaughn instead of the correct Stevie Ray Vaughan); a name correction can be posted on the forum. Still - keep it polite!

14. AND LAST BUT NOT LEAST, PLEASE DO NOT POST MESSAGES USING ALL UPPER CASE LETTERS! THANK YOU! :-)

Gary Sisco · March-25th-2005, 08:48 AM

sounds like a fun place.

It kind of reads like the recruit regs at Parris Island.

Brian Olewnick · March-25th-2005, 08:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gary Sisco

sounds like a fun place.

It kind of reads like the recruit regs at Parris Island.

Exactly. Granted, where I "draw the line" at offensive remarks is likely way the hell beyond a lot of people, but in my years at this board, I've taken serious offense to posts less (probably far less) than ten times. People have strongly held different opinions and give voice to them. What's the big deal? That's reality. I was thinking yesterday, before this thread emerged, that I'd love to be at a table in a bar with Sisco, Dolan, (the late lamented) Alex and Monte. Be a helluva lot of fun, imho.

Uli · March-25th-2005, 09:03 AM

I would give it another chance, Lois. But honestly, if the eai squad force does not calm down a bit, I don't have much hope.

Gentle Giant · March-25th-2005, 09:04 AM

I think some of those rules have merit, and I love the concept (though certainly not the practice) of thread-crapping.

I think the Osmond Brothers put it best when they sang, "One bad apple don't spoil the whole bunch, girl." It's true there are people here whose online personality (the only one I can honestly opine about) frequently tends towards the malicious and offensive. I know I have been officially called on the carpet before, and a couple of times posters have politely PM'd me to suggest that I change or delete a post. In all cases, I have happily complied. If people here can agree to self-policing, I think a lot of the bad stuff can be cleared up before it gets out of hand. Those who cannot take responsibility for their online actions should have their posting privileges revoked.

For the most part, however, I think there's a good group of people here and most of us play well with others on a regular basis. While I enjoy talking music, we all are multi-faceted people and being able to explore other topics has given me a greater appreciation for a number of the people here, many of whom I truly wish I could meet in person (I won't mention names but hopefully most know who they might be).

Furthermore, I think new people have been integrated pretty well, assuming they have something worthwhile to say. Vibesman and Surfer are good examples of this.

In my opinion, Lois, you should use your power as Queen of the Corner and delete posts you deem offensive at will. Folks who scream "free speech" are welcome to start their own boards and let people post as they wish - and accept the consequences.

After all, there but for the grace of Lois post I.

tippy · March-25th-2005, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gentle Giant

After all, there but for the grace of Lois post I.

Nice, gg.

I would empathize with Lois in her frustration. It *isn't* good if she's receiving a barrage of complaints. I think threatening a plug pull is smart and will help peeps be mindful. My deal is I can accept (and be exceedingly) crass. What I hate is when posters might be vehemently disrespectful to other board members, especially on a neverending basis. That makes me feel uncomfortable and unhappy. It's really not cute at all.

Richardo Caerleoni · March-25th-2005, 09:30 AM

“An alley full of garbage cans full with rats and roaches and other vermin.” (sic)

SOURCE: Germany 1933 or New York 2005?

Well, it’s certainly nice to be appreciated!

Lois - If that’s your opinion of some/most of your contributors? (i.e. “us”), then, so shut the LOT down NOW? As has been pointed out about, it’s your site/your final call?

I came onto this site about a year ago because it is highly informed, open, and passionate about the music and its social/political context, articulate, witty and welcoming. I have never had any reason to revise that opinion.

Things began to get “edgy” around the time of your (US) presidential election and Iraq…opinions naturally ran high because people cared deeply. But, even then, I felt could and did argue (political) points robustly (as a European) without being told to “butt out” or be insulted.

What I now suspect is that your concerns are based on purely commercial grounds/sponsorship/the opinions of the “great and the good”? Your and Stanley Crouch’s “run in” with Chris Albertson was the first sign of that trait. And left a very sour taste.

So, as someone one said…Peter Cook? “I can go elsewhere to be insulted.” Frankly, it is your choice of language (“rats/vermin”) that is highly offensive.

Hence, certainly this is My last post to this board.

Sincere wishes to all those on JC I have debated and discussed music (and life) with…and above all, greatly learned from. Your generosity has been truly amazing and confirmed my belief that there is another, far better, “America”. Sorry to be “pompous” (Not my style !) , but it needs to be said!

"The only thing I have learned about life...is that it goes on" - Robert Frost.

Very best wishes for the future…Richard/Anna

[to those I have promised tapes/CDs? - they will all follow in the next two weeks]

Gary Sisco · March-25th-2005, 09:31 AM

Threats are threats. Any parent knows you have to follow through, not threaten. So pull the plug or don't pull it.

tippy · March-25th-2005, 09:35 AM

Come on, Richard. We should be allowed an occasional poor choice of words. JC's humanness is part of what makes it interesting and cool. You won't really go, will you? We'd be sorry to lose you.

Steve Reynolds · March-25th-2005, 09:46 AM

like Gary said, when Jazz Central Station closed, we made this board what it is today - like it or not, it is what it is - and if it is closed, we will find each other elsewhere

I think much of you, Lois - and if you do choose to use any rules anything like the rules that Kevin posted, I'm gone

peace and blessings

Chris D · March-25th-2005, 09:59 AM

There's a lot more good than bad on this board. The miscreants are fairly few, and I think we do a pretty good job of self-regulating.

I came here because it was a friendly place, and a lot of my online pals were here. They still are, and new ones come all the time.

Let it live!

RBS · March-25th-2005, 10:04 AM

I think a few over-the-top posts are inevitable, human beings what they are. Especially when things get heated.

However, this is a business for you. And if you feel like it's interfering with your income or status as a businesswoman, then it is certainly your right.

I like it here. This is a good place. When people go too far, I just pretty much ignore them.

Pete C · March-25th-2005, 10:06 AM

Here's my take.

First of all, if I'm reading this correctly, and the Alley is the main problem, then kill the Alley, but don't throw out the baby. As far as I'm concerned, the Alley was an accommodation to posters, but it should not be central to what Jazz Corner is. If the site had less activity due to the lack of non-jazz discussion, so what.

As far as music discussion is concerned, I think the only real tension has been in the improv wars, and that is generally under control. I'd have no problem with an "Other Music" forum that would cover the non-jazz improv that lots of folks here like as well as the Brazilian and other international forms that I like, if that would keep tensions down.

I think expectations may be too high for the consistency of in-depth musical discussion on a bbs, and it's partly due to the nature of the medium. Unlike usenet or listservs, a bbs is a virtual place. Instead of getting individual messages into your inbox or reader, you have a landscape of discussions to view when you log in. With a listserv it's not uncommon to have a single discussion thread going for a while, to the exclusion of others, and only intermittent input. In fact, nobody would want to be swamped with emails.

On a bbs there's more real-time interaction--it's somewhere between a newsgroup and a chat room. But that sometimes leads to noise predominating over substantative discussion. Still the substantative discussion, as well as a knowledgable queryable community is an important thing.

I recently brought up the loft scene thread as an example of how lay enthusiastis and professionals can help contribute to a body of knowledge that is not necessarily available in the traditional literature.

Consumer info is an important function--when people come looking for music recommendations there is often enthusiastic response--once again, the forums are a way for non-professionals and professionals alike to share their expertise and breadth of experience.

Online communities do tend to get insular, but I haven't seen newcomers made unwelcome when they jumped into the fray. Once again, an interesting proof of the power of this medium is a recent query by a newcomer who needed a recording ID'd. He'd posted a link, and Bostontricky came up with his answer. What are the odds that he could have found his answer so quickly without a medium like this?

I think we need to reevaluate our expectations. There's nothing wrong if we go for days without profound jazz discussion--there's no law that says a forum has to live up to its highest potential 24/7. I'm confident that when the topic does arise that will engage enough of us, it will have sufficient activity.

Gary Sisco · March-25th-2005, 10:07 AM

Let's face it. Nothing's happening here that isn't happening -- with more intensity -- in the American society itself (the population of regulars here is predominantly American -- not meaning to be parochial). All that's happening online (and the same thing is happening on non-music boards of every description) is that people are finding out that music alone is not enough of a common ground. This is a very troubled society that is very seriously and angrily divided along multiple fault lines, much moreso than it was during the allegedly so divisive 60s, in fact, as the divisions are deeper and angrier now because older and more entrenched. So, it comes out here, too, as it does everywhere. That's life.

The truth is, in a society where the population was less inert than this one, there'd have been a civil war by now, if it were as seriously divided and hateful as the US is today.

So, be thankful it blows its steam off this way and not in others.

Or not.

Again, it's people's own choice to make. Always is.

moneyp · March-25th-2005, 10:15 AM

I don't spend anywhere near as much time here, any more, but I would miss the opportunity to read and converse with many JC regulars. As others have said, though, most of the people here will congregate elsewhere, so it's not a huge deal. I'll just have to spend more time on the Red Wings board to talk hockey with Nags.

The never-ending squabbles among certain members can make this place seem monotonous and insular. I think it would benefit from tighter controls, but I don't think you spend enough time on the board to enforce them effectively, Lois. I'd wager that the cause of the complaints filling up your inbox can be sourced to a handful of posters here. If you don't have the time to police them here, than do yourself a favor and get rid of the bad apples. You know who they are.

In regards to saving bandwidth, you might want to consider disabling the ability to hyperlink images and post attachments or avatars. Not a popular decision, I know (the visuals are a big aspect of what sets this place apart) but it's something to consider if money is tight.

Otherwise, you may as well Let The Horse Go... people here will find other places to congregate, and you can devote more of your resources to the profitable areas of this website.

Kevin Bresnahan · March-25th-2005, 10:17 AM

I tell you what, these rules sound extreme, but in practice, they are not. In fact, what happens is you find people debating musical and non-musical topics civilly. No nastiness. No vile name-calling. It's a nice place to visit.

I've never been a fan of political discussions here or on any music discussion board. Politics are for debating. I've never seen a political debate result in anything but hard feelings.

What's better, having Lois try tightening this place up or having her kill the whole thing?

Kevin

Rob C · March-25th-2005, 10:51 AM

Don't kill it. I think there has been less rancor generally since politics was separated out in its own forum (though--fortunately or unfortunately--there has also been a lot less posting about politics since it was split out).

sonic1 · March-25th-2005, 11:13 AM

Lois,

I post on a lot of jazz/classical boards and this one by far is most friendly, and most explosive. But it is not just regarding politics. We are passionate about music too. The Wynton and EAI threads are just as prone to rough-housing.

But this board is not much worse than others. People often act ways on the forums they would never do in person, and that is just the nature of the internet. We all have to show some consideration, and maybe a little bit thicker skin too.

The internet connects up a lot of different people who would not normally hang. I have never been in a room with such diverse mixes of people that I do here. We are all prone to lose our shit on each other once in a while.

Anyway, unlike what Gary has posted lately, I don't think everything is going to shit. It is easy to overlook the more positive exchanges that happen just as often. I have made a lot of friends on the board, many new ones in the last few weeks (just to point out that it isn't any worse lately than usual).

Don't close the board.

Jared