Race and Jazzcorner

[chuckyd4]

Here. Get it all out. Lois asked us not to crap all over her thread and address each other, and it seems like virtually no one is respecting that. I even pointed that out in my last post there, and what was the next post? Goodie quoting me.


FWIW, I think RainyDay had a really good point. It's easy as hell for Goodie to say "what does race have to do with the music" (I'm not trying to pick on you Goodie, just you were the one that responded), but that's missing the point.

I, for one, am interested in what she has to say about it, and she seemed discouraged that anybody cared what she was saying. So I thought I'd give you a nudge to go ahead.

[GoodSpeak]

Originally Posted by chuckyd4

FWIW, I think RainyDay had a really good point. It's easy as hell for Goodie to say "what does race have to do with the music" (I'm not trying to pick on you Goodie, just you were the one that responded), but that's missing the point.

Not at all.

This is a discussion forum, is it not?

Originally Posted by chuckyd4

I, for one, am interested in what she has to say about it, and she seemed discouraged that anybody cared what she was saying. So I thought I'd give you a nudge to go ahead.

I'm interested, too.

All my life I have been taught as a musician and as a person that music is colorless.

I truly believe it is, in my heart of hearts.



I'd like to know the contrary point of view.

[crawjo]

A couple of basic questions:

1.) How many people who post here are black? I honestly don't know because I've only met a few posters in person and most of the time a person's race is not mentioned. Obviously I know of a couple posters who are African-American, and I'm sure that most of the people here are white, but beyond that I don't know.

2.) It seems to me (and someone can correct me if I'm wrong) that the audience for jazz (not to mention free improvisation and eai), is mostly white these days. Is that true?

[MRS]

my home is AFRICA

[GoodSpeak]

What possible difference could it make if a poster is African-American or Caucasian?


Music is music.

[chuckyd4]

Originally Posted by GoodSpeak

All my life I have been taught as a musician and as a person that music is colorless.

That's not what RainyDay was talking about, IMO (I'm getting dangerously close to speaking for her, here, whistling into the wind, so I'm gonna hold off before posting too much).

But what I think you're missing, Goodie, is that she was talking about being an African-American female involved in a discussion with predominantly white males (I'm pretty sure crawjo is accurate in his guess here). The idea that this situation creates a certain disconnect, and that it is discouraging, and more importantly, discouragingly unoriginal.

That white males have certain prejudices, and that when she brings them up, she is unsatisfied with the response. Which does not surprise me, and I think is a very valid point. It is very easy to say something is "colorblind" if you don't have to navigate the negative side of the subterranean pitfalls color to this day creates in western countries like the United States.

But now I am going to shut up, because I'm interested to see what somebody besides myself has to say about this.

[GoodSpeak]

Originally Posted by chuckyd4

That's not what RainyDay was talking about, IMO (I'm getting dangerously close to speaking for her, here, whistling into the wind, so I'm gonna hold off before posting too much).

But what I think you're missing, Goodie, is that she was talking about being an African-American female involved in a discussion with predominantly white males (I'm pretty sure crawjo is accurate in his guess here). The idea that this situation creates a certain disconnect, and that it is discouraging, and more importantly, discouragingly unoriginal.

That white males have certain prejudices, and that when she brings them up, she is unsatisfied with the response. Which does not surprise me, and I think is a very valid point. It is very easy to say something is "colorblind" if you don't have to navigate the negative side of the subterranean pitfalls color to this day creates in western countries like the United States.

I see.

Now tell me...do Black females have "certain prejudices," too?

I have been a recipient of prejudice myself. Black folks don't own the monopoly on this one. OK?


You want to talk social prejudices or music?



Not the same thing.

[Captain Hate]

Give this up, Chuck; your intentions are very good but the last time something like this was attempted (October 2003, iirc) it was a clusterfuck of epic proportions. I would advise you to look it up in the old portions of the Alley except that a massive number of posts were deleted and you really can't get the whole flavor of it. The posturing was incredible; some posters got pissed off and left, Alex was suspended for the first time. It was extremely ugly.

[chuckyd4]

Okay, last post before bed.

Originally Posted by GoodSpeak

I see.

Now tell me...do Black females have "certain prejudices," too?

Of course.

Originally Posted by GoodSpeak

I have been a recipient of prejudice myself. Black folks don't own the monopoly on this one. OK?

Show me where I said that, and I'll buy you a beer.

Originally Posted by GoodSpeak

You want to talk social prejudices or music?



Not the same thing.

Again, never said they were. If you'd care to read my post, you'll actually see the part where I pointed out to you that RainyDay didn't seem to be talking about colorblindness in music, but in society at large - or at least our little one here. That difference is precisely what I'm referring to.

And I to answer your question, I want to talk both. The first one in this thread, the second elsewhere on the board.

If a member says they are feeling a major disconnect between herself and the white male posters on the board, then I think it is worth hearing what they have to say about it. I started the thread so it would happen over here, instead of further ignoring the one very simple rule Lois had in the other one.



Duly noted, Cap'n. I missed the other one. But I have a good feeling this has a chance to be the most-posted on thread I've ever started - a controversial issue *and* a chance for posters to talk about themselves talking to each other. Whoopee!!!

[GoodSpeak]

Originally Posted by chuckyd4

That white males have certain prejudices, and that when she brings them up, she is unsatisfied with the response. Which does not surprise me, and I think is a very valid point. It is very easy to say something is "colorblind" if you don't have to navigate the negative side of the subterranean pitfalls color to this day creates in western countries like the United States.

No.

I think you need to go back and re-read.


If what I am saying is incongruent with the above, then I completely retract my statement

[Jon Abbey]

Originally Posted by crawjo

the audience for jazz (not to mention free improvisation and eai), is mostly white these days. Is that true?

the audience for eai has a sizable Asian component, both at shows in NYC and worldwide. besides that, it's mostly white in my experience, very few blacks in the audience or musicians working in this area.

[Sergio Zamora]

Originally Posted by Jon Abbey

the audience for eai has a sizable Asian component, both at shows in NYC and worldwide. besides that, it's mostly white in my experience, very few blacks in the audience or musicians working in this area.

And a single fucking Mexican

[chuckyd4]

Wanted to clear this up further, Goodie, about you and the prejudice you face/have faced.

I don't know you from Adam. I don't know where you've been or what you went through when you were there. For all I know, you could have grown up in a trailer and had to deal with ugly class-based shit all your life. You could be deaf, and have had people treat you like an idiot all your life because of it. You could be a post-op transgender wo/man and have to put up with people with simple ideas about gender. Etc Etc.

But this thread is about race/color and its prejudices (as is clearly indicated in the title). As a white male in America, you cannot say that you have been made to feel inferior precisely because of the color of your skin. You cannot say that you are faced routinely with people who feel a sense of entitlement over you solely because of theirs'. Sorry.

Especially as someone who has faced the prejudice you say you have, I would think you'd get the general idea.


Happy Easter everybody.

[Jon Abbey]

Originally Posted by Sergio Zamora

And a single fucking Mexican

[cookie]

I just want you to know that I'm here and I'm listening. Goodspeak: Chuckyd4 makes good points. You're gettin' all jumpy and ain' t nobody said nuthin' yet. That doesn't start dialogue off on the right foot.

I think listening is really important. Listening is the most important part of music. Listening is the most important part of conversation. Relax and listen, Tim.

[sonic1]

This came up in the Wynton thread, and I want to consider the ideas in a more civil manner. I was offended when I was told I didn't like Wynton cause he was a black man in power, an idea I find totally ridiculous.

However I think if you get a collection of any type of person, (whether it be white females, black males, or like this site, white males) there will be a dominant feeling. I often feel for Lois and Rita (I don't see Rainyday in a lot of posts) who are constantly surrounded by males, and a rather rowdy bunch at that. This group is way different than the one I usually hang out in. First of all I am friends with a much more diverse group than here (where most people in my close circle are gay, and many of them are of color. The people I am closest to in my life are female). I have noticed that I need to alter myself somewhat to exist here. Some time ago I joked like I do with my gay friends, and some straight people got pissed off cause they thought I was making fun of gays. But the context and the "room tone" (howdya like that petie) is different here. Now I understand that some of the humor permitted amongst my friends are not appropriate here.

There is a feel that is different if most people here were black and male, or female for that matter. There would be a definate difference. Is that bad or good? Well, I am not sure. A little diversity, and a lot less testosterone would be great! But if it got too diverse around here, I would think people would argue even more because the sourse of most arguments here is miscommunication and misunderstanding since we all (even if most of us are white) come from such different places in life. In my personal group we are a lot more diverse in maybe color, sexual orientation, and sex, but we are all a lot alike otherwise (artsy, probably a lot more liberal, etc). We get along easy cause we are a lot alike.

The problem here is the diversity of lifestyles, life views, etc. We have hard-core republicans chatting on a friendly (usually) daily basis with radical liberals. To me it is amazing we can even have conversations the way we do. I think we all have been quite open-minded. And if once in a while there are little spats, jesus people, so what??

After all this is just a forum on a website that is very big, in a world that is even bigger. If you are so offended at what happens here, go somewhere where you won't be offended.

Anyway, my point is that race is the last thing to worry about. I mean, I have way more prejudices against republicans than any kind of race. Race doesn't mean much to me, except for what social gravities history has given it. Like I said, my friends are on the outside all very different, but we are very akin. I probably look a lot more like the posters on this site, but have a lot less in common (the only thing that really threads us together is music).

[sonic1]

Originally Posted by chuckyd4

But this thread is about race/color and its prejudices (as is clearly indicated in the title). As a white male in America, you cannot say that you have been made to feel inferior precisely because of the color of your skin. You cannot say that you are faced routinely with people who feel a sense of entitlement over you solely because of theirs'. Sorry.
.

Mostly true. Except that I used to live in Oakland California, one of probably two or three white guys in the whole city. Also now I live in Tucson, in a predominately Mexican neighborhood. But as far as who is in power in the country, I agree.

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by sonic1

Except that I used to live in Oakland California, one of probably two or three white guys in the whole city.

How hyperbolic of you.

[sonic1]

Originally Posted by Pete C

How hyperbolic of you.

It really felt that way. I can understand how many black people might feel in this country.

Originally Posted by chuckyD

But what I think you're missing, Goodie, is that she was talking about being an African-American female involved in a discussion with predominantly white males (I'm pretty sure crawjo is accurate in his guess here). The idea that this situation creates a certain disconnect, and that it is discouraging, and more importantly, discouragingly unoriginal.

Chucky, you are the man. You are intelligent, you think your thoughts through completely before posting them here. I admire that.

But I think that you may be missing a small part of this point as well.

Rainy is often just as irrational as she views us "white males" as being. I have never seen her in any situation where she is being attacked that she essentially did not start all by herself. the first few times I got into it with her, I had no idea she was black. the very first time, I had no idea she was a she.

She is given free reign here to speak as she wishes. If I were to pontificate on whether or not certain posters fucked their mothers, or told two posters to fuck themselves or each other, the roar would be deafening. Lois would receive complaints, Rita would create a highlight posts of those offensive outbursts just in case anyone happened to miss them originally.

But when Rainy does it, things go on as though nothing had even happened. Pardon me if I have a hard time feeling any sympathy for her.

And your entitlement argument is rather weak as well. On the surface it makes complete and total sense. I will not argue against the fact that racism is just as vile, ugly, and widespread as it has ever been. But I also think that classism can be just as evil. Fortunately for me, I work in a profession that doesn't discriminate. I also learned an incredibly tough lesson about racism at an early age that scarred me for life.

"Oppression" comes in many forms, and effects many different kind of people.

Originally Posted by sonic1

I often feel for..... Rita (I don't see Rainyday in a lot of posts) who are constantly surrounded by males, and a rather rowdy bunch at that.

I don't.

There are other women here, namely Cookie, particia, and Tippz who don't seem to have a poor little me attitude. They don't play the role, and are perfectly willing to mix it up with the guys and usually always hold their ground just fine. Ok, Cookie tends to get a little emotional at times, but hey, SO DO I. What's the big deal?

I dislike this statement of yours mostly because I think that's one of the things that Lois is intentionally going to change about this place. Her recent public solicitation of Rita's opinions on the state of the Alley and what changes need to be made bear this out.

There is nothing wrong with things the way they are, it's just there are some who need to strengthen their backbone a little. If they don't like someone, they should skip that persons post.

Rita has an agenda, pure and simple. Jared, you yourself know this because you've called her on it several times. And she never answered the call. Not once! Which creates more confusion as to why you feel for her.

Abbey called her a hall monitor. Oh my, that's not even scratching the surface. Rita and I have gone round and round several times in the years I've been here, and as time goes on I try to give her the benefit of doubt. But each time something like what's happened here recently occurs, she shows her true colors once again.

The most memorable time being the infamous PIGS thread. Now with the Schiavo thread. When Rainy posted her obnoxious horseshit, Rita didn't make a peep. But when I questioned crawjo yesterday about me attacking two posters in the Schiavo thread(because I knew that I hadn't), within 10 minutes Rita had a post up with three "attacks" of mine from other threads.

And still, not a word about Rainy's. And those who know Rainy's history understand that she gets just as vile and obnoxious as anybody else here.

The problem here is the diversity of lifestyles, life views, etc. We have hard-core republicans chatting on a friendly (usually) daily basis with radical liberals. To me it is amazing we can even have conversations the way we do. I think we all have been quite open-minded. And if once in a while there are little spats, jesus people, so what??

Absolutely.

I agree 100%.

I'm just surprised Sergio hasn't posted a sleeping smilie. This happens about once a quarter. It always comes and goes. Wounds heal, we all move on treating it as the anomaly that it was.

Some people are just trying to make WAY too much of it this time around.

[chuckyd4]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

But I think that you may be missing a small part of this point as well.

Rainy is often just as irrational as she views us "white males" as being. I have never seen her in any situation where she is being attacked that she essentially did not start all by herself. the first few times I got into it with her, I had no idea she was black. the very first time, I had no idea she was a she.

She is given free reign here to speak as she wishes. If I were to pontificate on whether or not certain posters fucked their mothers, or told two posters to fuck themselves or each other, the roar would be deafening. Lois would receive complaints, Rita would create a highlight posts of those offensive outbursts just in case anyone happened to miss them originally.

But when Rainy does it, things go on as though nothing had even happened. Pardon me if I have a hard time feeling any sympathy for her.

And your entitlement argument is rather weak as well. On the surface it makes complete and total sense. I will not argue against the fact that racism is just as vile, ugly, and widespread as it has ever been. But I also think that classism can be just as evil. Fortunately for me, I work in a profession that doesn't discriminate. I also learned an incredibly tough lesson about racism at an early age that scarred me for life.

"Oppression" comes in many forms, and effects many different kind of people.

These are really good points I think, Scoot. (Ummm... that was a typo, but it was so funny, that I decided to leave it in.)

I really don't know enough about the cases you're referring to to make much of an argument one way or the other. FWIW, I wasn't trying to set Rainy up as any kind of a hero poster, more trying to divert one of the side-arguments out of Lois' main thread, and let everybody have at it. And even if Rainy has said some wacky shit (which you allude to), then I don't think it takes away from the value of considering that there might indeed be a heavy White-Maleology to the discourse around here, and why that's a problem. Just Rainy's pointing to the fact that certain friends of hers couldn't understand why she'd want to visit an environment like JC tells me something important that I don't think should be ignored- something I have had in the back of my mind, but I thought was worth drawing out.

You mention that classism can be just as ugly as racism. I wholeheartedly agree, and thought I tried to make that clear in my last post. I wanted to see if we could talk about the latter in relation to JC - if you think it would be worthwhile to talk about any inherent classism here as well, I think a thread on that could be interesting too. And I am sincerely happy that you've been able to find a profession lacking discrimination - that's a truly rare environment, and I would feel lucky to find myself in a similar situation (I don't, though have known one or two in the past).

But again, I am trying to see how much validity there is to the fact that we talk mostly in "white-malese" around here: especially with talking about jazz, that seems like a discouragingly common problem in the modern world. For instance, I visit a couple of hip hop boards that are every bit as lively and more diverse than this one (I'm guessing on the diversity, from what I know of posters here), and I find a much different case there. I think the difference is important, and because I really like coming to JC, I think it's worth us paying attention to.

Jared, I see what you're saying - I lived for multiple years in a building in Brooklyn where me and my girlfriend were the only white people, and in fact almost the only white people in the neighborhood. But that is a different phenomenon, I truly believe.

Originally Posted by ChuckyD

But again, I am trying to see how much validity there is to the fact that we talk mostly in "white-malese" around here: especially with talking about jazz, that seems like a discouragingly common problem in the modern world.

I won't argue against the validity, but I guess I would need some examples of this "white-malese" that you refer to. Because I personally have never witnessed it from an outsiders viewpoint. Naturally.

Backgrounds are backgrounds as far as I've ever been able to see. And I have always thought that that was were diversity came from. To reduce it to black and white seems to be over-simplifying it a little too much.

These are really good points I think, Scoot. (Ummm... that was a typo, but it was so funny, that I decided to leave it in.)

Hey, you know what, Chucky? Don't sweat it.

Besides, that's exactly how "liberla" came into being.

Originally Posted by ChuckyD

Just Rainy's pointing to the fact that certain friends of hers couldn't understand why she'd want to visit an environment like JC tells me something important that I don't think should be ignored- something I have had in the back of my mind, but I thought was worth drawing out.

Yes.

Like that this attitude is yet another spring that feeds racism?

[sonic1]

Originally Posted by chuckyd4

These are really good points I think, Scoot. (Ummm... that was a typo, but it was so funny, that I decided to leave it in.)

I really don't know enough about the cases you're referring to to make much of an argument one way or the other. FWIW, I wasn't trying to set Rainy up as any kind of a hero poster, more trying to divert one of the side-arguments out of Lois' main thread, and let everybody have at it. And even if Rainy has said some wacky shit (which you allude to), then I don't think it takes away from the value of considering that there might indeed be a heavy White-Maleology to the discourse around here, and why that's a problem. Just Rainy's pointing to the fact that certain friends of hers couldn't understand why she'd want to visit an environment like JC tells me something important that I don't think should be ignored- something I have had in the back of my mind, but I thought was worth drawing out.

You mention that classism can be just as ugly as racism. I wholeheartedly agree, and thought I tried to make that clear in my last post. I wanted to see if we could talk about the latter in relation to JC - if you think it would be worthwhile to talk about any inherent classism here as well, I think a thread on that could be interesting too. And I am sincerely happy that you've been able to find a profession lacking discrimination - that's a truly rare environment, and I would feel lucky to find myself in a similar situation (I don't, though have known one or two in the past).

But again, I am trying to see how much validity there is to the fact that we talk mostly in "white-malese" around here: especially with talking about jazz, that seems like a discouragingly common problem in the modern world. For instance, I visit a couple of hip hop boards that are every bit as lively and more diverse than this one (I'm guessing on the diversity, from what I know of posters here), and I find a much different case there. I think the difference is important, and because I really like coming to JC, I think it's worth us paying attention to.

Jared, I see what you're saying - I lived for multiple years in a building in Brooklyn where me and my girlfriend were the only white people, and in fact almost the only white people in the neighborhood. But that is a different phenomenon, I truly believe.

I will second Scott's experience. I thought Rainyday was a white male republican for a long time due to her posting style (she may still be republican). So color has NOTHING to do with my relationship with her. And the only reason her color came up was that people accused us non-wynton fans as being rascist.

I was shocked to find out she was a she and she was black. That is my prejudice though, I usually visualize black females as being not conservative, and a lot more friendly. And that shows my prejudices also against white males too, since I thought "his guy is an asshole". This is why the color issue is so not an issue here, since we are all equalized in that way. I have no idea what race a particular poster might be.

Except for that one crazy mexican.

[Mike Schwartz]

I sure do hope that Rainy went to church today to pray for us all:-)

Originally Posted by Mike Schwartz

I sure do hope that Rainy went to church today to pray for us all:-)

God knows I need all the help I can get.

[graypencil]

Originally Posted by crawjo

A couple of basic questions:

1.) How many people who post here are black? I honestly don't know because I've only met a few posters in person and most of the time a person's race is not mentioned. Obviously I know of a couple posters who are African-American, and I'm sure that most of the people here are white, but beyond that I don't know.

2.) It seems to me (and someone can correct me if I'm wrong) that the audience for jazz (not to mention free improvisation and eai), is mostly white these days. Is that true?

I'll respond to Crawjos questions:

1. I am white ..basically Irish/Swedish ( about as white as you get ) BUT:

A. since my teens, I was basically taught to play jazz by black musicians who ,seeing some possible potential, gave me much of their valuable time and experience. For that alone, I owe any black performer/artist a big debt.

B. Thru my college years, I probably played with more black musicians than white ones ..all kinds of gigs, chicken wire blues bands, bebop sessions, R&B record dates.

C. I was one of the first whites in Ohio to testify for a black bass player in one of the first Civil Rights cases in Ohio in 1960. During this period, I had a cross burned on the lawn of my apartment building and several nasty pieces of hate mail slipped under my door.

D. Finally, in my professional career, I have always hired black musicians whenever possible if they could do the gig.

And yes ..I DO believe there is still de facto discrimination present in much of this country.

As to Crawjos #2 question:

1. I think he's correct: most of the live jazz audiences I see in the NW these days are overwhelmingly white. Many times the number of black musicians on the gig will outnumber the blacks in the audience.

I think the young black audiences today ( as well as the suburban white "wigger" wannabes ) listen to and support rap groups .The middle age (and middle class ) black audiences seem to prefer the Older R&B ans "Quiet Storm " artists ..at least in the theatre and arena tours.

my .02 worth ...

Originally Posted by Graypencil

I probably played with more black musicians than white ones

Gray, I do not have any reason to believe that you are racist, but I have to admit that I have always found this and the "I have many black friends" type statements to be incredibly racist. Why? Because what does it really matter?

I had a cross burned on the lawn of my apartment building and several nasty pieces of hate mail slipped under my door.

I'm very sorry to hear this. Racism is the nastiest, most repugnant thing I can think of that exists in the human mind. But as I said, I had a "life changing" experience concerning racism when I was quite young.

And yes ..I DO believe there is still de facto discrimination present in much of this country.

Unfortunately, you are absolutely correct about this, IMO.

1. I think he's correct: most of the live jazz audiences I see in the NW these days are overwhelmingly white.

AND older. Which has led me to believe that it may truly be a dying artform.

as well as the suburban white "wigger" wannabes

Which may be the most disturbing part of your post. As I said before, knowing you as much as I do, I have no reason to believe that you are racist in any way. But why use the word "wigger"?

Where does that word come from?

[graypencil]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

Which may be the most disturbing part of your post. As I said before, knowing you as much as I do, I have no reason to believe that you are racist in any way. But why use the word "wigger"?

Where does that word come from?

It's not my term ..it's one I've seen in many articles describing the current white youth culture ( largely from affluent wite suburbia ) that choose to mimic the language, wardrobe affectations and mannerisms ( showing gang "signs", etc ) of black rap performers,steeping themselves in the imagined lifestyles of their"idols" as if they were actually from the projects . In fact, these white kids coined the term.

and yes ..it IS a nasty term.

[Mike Schwartz]

Quote from Dolan:

"Gray, I do not have any reason to believe that you are racist, but I have to admit that I have always found this and the "I have many black friends" type statements to be incredibly racist. Why? Because what does it really matter? "


BIG interpretation error as I see it:
There's no kneejerk sentiment in da'pencil's remarks...homage & respect for a community that has given much and whose appreciation [Phil's] is far beyond any coined catch phrases.