ESP is back.....

as you all know, ESP disk has been revived, and is releasing a lot of its back catalog.

i spoke with Bernard Stollman this morning (what a passionate and funny guy), and he confirmed a few items that will interest some here:

a new version of Sun Ra's NOTHING IS will come soon; it has another 30 minutes that hasn't been previously released.

the Ayler box, yes another Ayler box. Mr. Stollman said this will be "astonishing, larger, and more coherent" than the Revenant box, and will include a dvd of Ayler in concert. He hopes it'll come some time this year.

[Jason Bivins]

Did he mention whether or not he's actually paid back any musicians yet?

[Scott Yanow]

Film of Albert Ayler? That would be historic.

[Nate Dorward]

Well, there's film of him in Michael Snow's NY E&E Control of course--but not synched with the music.

[Lois Gilbert]

Originally Posted by achilles

as you all know, ESP disk has been revived, and is releasing a lot of its back catalog.

i spoke with Bernard Stollman this morning (what a passionate and funny guy), and he confirmed a few items that will interest some here:

a new version of Sun Ra's NOTHING IS will come soon; it has another 30 minutes that hasn't been previously released.

the Ayler box, yes another Ayler box. Mr. Stollman said this will be "astonishing, larger, and more coherent" than the Revenant box, and will include a dvd of Ayler in concert. He hopes it'll come some time this year.

Don't let him fool you. I worked for him, until I realized how many musicians he owed and continues to owe money to. In fact at Stubblefield's birthday, I talked to Sonny Simmons about him. He never saw a dime from his recordings.

Did you ask his if he ever paid Ayler's estate or any other musician? Did you ask why he went to Canada for many years?

[Jesse]

You go, girl!

didn't know Stollman had this past.
i just asked him about the upcoming releases.
i guess it raises the issue whether one should buy such releases
if the guy stiffs his artists and their heirs. my guess is people will buy the
releases regardless.

it would be interesting to see some of you pledge not to buy any new or remastered ESP's.

[Gary Sisco]

Originally Posted by achilles

it would be interesting to see some of you pledge not to buy any new or remastered ESP's.

Already did, several years back:

See STN #23, Fall 2001, Sunny Murray interview/cover story, by Dan Warburton.

He also by the way in the same interview *asks* people not to buy his BYG records. He says that neither ESP nor BYG ever paid anybody (and also that ESP owes Ayler, or Ayler's family, a million bucks), but he saves his choicer loathing for BYG, which he says is run by "gangsters," and he goes so far as to ask people *not* to buy BYG records, even his own. Says he'll send you a tape if you want one that bad.

That was the first time I ever heard a cat come right out publicly and ask people not to buy his own records. (The second time was during the recent boycott protest of the Knitting Factory and Knitting Factory records, which was quickly resolved, apparently to the musicians' satisfaction.)

Murray says: "...Those two, ESP and BYG, were the biggest profiteers of avant-garde music in the world. So these days I record for the younger cats [Eremite and Fractal], I have no problem with them, they treat me good. Japanese companies are good, I get my royalty checks... But the real dinosaurs were ESP and BYG, because they didn't pay NOBODY. You're dead as far as they're concerned. I've been dead for thirty-two years. Now they've re-released everything so it's like you're dead two times."

[Lore]

That Sunny Murray interview to which my buddy Gary refers is at:

http://www.paristransatlantic.com/ma...ws/murray.html

[Gary Sisco]

Cool, Adam. Thanks for the link.

i appreciate the info, but as i'm not writing a profile on Stollman,
your indignation is best expressed to him. if you want his email or
phone number, please PM and I'll provide it.

oddly, this sordidness in his practices hasn't prevented distributors from carrying his disks nor did it prevent the WIRE from collaborating on an ESP comp about a year or so ago.

[Rob C]

Originally Posted by Gary Sisco

(and also that ESP owes Ayler, or Ayler's family, a million bucks)

I'm for artists getting paid, but there's no way Ayler's record sales can have generated anywhere close to a million bucks in royalties.

I read the Sunny Murray interview when it was new, and I've read similar complaints from other artists before, but I always wonder whether these guys have really been ripped off, or there just wasn't any money to pay them with.

Probably a little bit of both.

[chuckyd4]

I get what you're saying Rob, but sounds like there was definitely ripping off going on here. Not that they have sold millions of dollars worth of these records, but they have sold quite a few over the years - enough that there should have been a decent chunk of change coming the way of some of these artists. And if they truly haven't seen a dime there, then that is called being ripped off, straight up.

I always liked Gary Bartz' way of talking about record companies and their practices. I'm sure there are some good ones out there (with regard to how they treat their artists), but there have been lots of stinkers too.

[Sergio Zamora]

Originally Posted by Rob C

I'm for artists getting paid, but there's no way Ayler's record sales can have generated anywhere close to a million bucks in royalties.

I read the Sunny Murray interview when it was new, and I've read similar complaints from other artists before, but I always wonder whether these guys have really been ripped off, or there just wasn't any money to pay them with.

Probably a little bit of both.

It would be interesting if someone did research into this specifically with regards to free jazz musicians and their labels. The Murray article left me with the impression that ESP was highly unethical while BYG were downright despicable in their actions. That's, of course, one point of view, which is why some further research would be interesting.

In any case, ever since reading the article I vowed to not buy anymore BYGs, though to be honest I've succumbed to temptation a couple of times.

[Jon Abbey]

Originally Posted by achilles

oddly, this sordidness in his practices hasn't prevented distributors from carrying his disks

distributors don't care whether labels pay musicians, they only care about getting and moving product.

[Gary Sisco]

Why should they care? Distributors aren't required to pay musicians and never were. Why on earth should the distibs care? They'll sell whatever they can sell. What's ethics to them.

Why achilles comes off so hard, I have no idea. No one has challenged him on anything. Rather, there were posts made to alert people to the seamy side of ESP's being back with reissues -- that is, reselling records for which the musicians weren't paid the first time, being sold again the second time, without paying them again, a second time. That's all.

Clearly, there's no need for us to express anything to Bernard. If he gave a fuck, he'd have given a fuck long before this. Clearly, he doesn't. It's not like he's unaware of his rep in the music world. That's how he got where he is today, after all.

The posts were a warning to jazz buyers who *do* care whether the musicians are paid or not. Obviously, there are some who don't. Many do, however. I'm one.

And I also gave away my copy of the Wire's ESP comp, as a matter of fact. The only one I didn't keep.

Originally Posted by Jon Abbey

distributors don't care whether labels pay musicians, they only care about getting and moving product.

true enough, though you might think that such putatively artist-friendly places like Cadence or Forced Exposure might refuse to carry ESP if it's as bad to its musicians as claimed. though that's almost as idealistic as thinking fans would actually boycott the label. (other than angry Saint Sisco, that is)

[Gary Sisco]

No saints. Only people who care about the cats, and of those, I am one.

If you don't, buy away. You've heard what Murray had to say about it. I certainly don't care whose pockets you wish to further slime, Achilles. It's no sweat off of my ass. It *is* sweat off the cats' asses, however. That I care about. You, I don't. Buy what you like. You're going to, regardless of what anyone has to say, much less anyone here.

not every thread here requires your shrill hectoring. get over yourself or take some happy pills or something.

[Rob C]

Somebody tell me it's okay to buy Free Americas!

[Enforcer]

The Sunny Murray piece is a great read. I don't know what to make of his comments, particularly near the end of the interview, about being made to feel excluded by the "new" generation of avant-garde musicians. Is that really true? Cats treating him that way? Why would it be like that? Seems like there were would be some kind of appreciation for one of the founding cats of the music.

[Lore]

Originally Posted by Larry Nagel

The Sunny Murray piece is a great read. I don't know what to make of his comments, particularly near the end of the interview, about being made to feel excluded by the "new" generation of avant-garde musicians. Is that really true? Cats treating him that way? Why would it be like that? Seems like there were would be some kind of appreciation for one of the founding cats of the music.

I recall Sunny holding court in a smoke-filled bathroom at the Vision Fest several years ago, so I reckon he's got at least a few cats in his corner.

[D.D.]

Originally Posted by Gary Sisco

Already did, several years back:

See STN #23, Fall 2001, Sunny Murray interview/cover story, by Dan Warburton.

He also by the way in the same interview *asks* people not to buy his BYG records. He says that neither ESP nor BYG ever paid anybody (and also that ESP owes Ayler, or Ayler's family, a million bucks), but he saves his choicer loathing for BYG, which he says is run by "gangsters," and he goes so far as to ask people *not* to buy BYG records, even his own. Says he'll send you a tape if you want one that bad.

That was the first time I ever heard a cat come right out publicly and ask people not to buy his own records. (The second time was during the recent boycott protest of the Knitting Factory and Knitting Factory records, which was quickly resolved, apparently to the musicians' satisfaction.)

Murray says: "...Those two, ESP and BYG, were the biggest profiteers of avant-garde music in the world. So these days I record for the younger cats [Eremite and Fractal], I have no problem with them, they treat me good. Japanese companies are good, I get my royalty checks... But the real dinosaurs were ESP and BYG, because they didn't pay NOBODY. You're dead as far as they're concerned. I've been dead for thirty-two years. Now they've re-released everything so it's like you're dead two times."

Well, Sunny Murray is not a very reliable source of information / over the course of this interview he changes his opinion several times. In the same interview he says:

"I should say that recently, Bernard [Stollman] and I have had a very fruitful reunion, and now I know the history of ESP, and of my record, and the difficulties Bernard has suffered trying to keep that company afloat. I realise that it was difficult to sell those early avant-garde records. I know now he went bankrupt and lost the company to some other people, and how he had to go down to Florida and work as a regular lawyer to get back on his feet. I'm very happy now that Bernard is willing to help me and other musicians in my legal battles".

Before blaming Stollman in making "millions" on the jazz exploited musicians, what if someone investigates what was actually the agreement between him and the musicians like. Was he actually supposed to pay for the records according to a contract? Did he receive the tapes into full ownership and they actually are his full property at the moment (so he is free to do whatever he wants with them)? Building on the topic - do, say, Blue Note musicians (sidemen poarticularly) receive royalties for recent reissue? I would be surprised if they do...

[Nate Dorward]

My recollection is that in an feature/interview published in The Wire when the ZYX reissues were emerging, Stollmann himself acknowledged that he'd not been paying royalties over the years.

Originally Posted by Nate Dorward

My recollection is that in an feature/interview published in The Wire when the ZYX reissues were emerging, Stollmann himself acknowledged that he'd not been paying royalties over the years.

full context, please.
because he was bankrupt and broke? because he enjoyed ripping off the muscians? ????
this is interesting, and even important, but anyone can say anything.
D.D. did the intellectually sound thing--he actually read the *whole* interview with Murray!

here's something from an interview with John Tchai, which touches on Stollman's practices:


Oppro: Seeing as how both the New York Art Quartet and New York Eye And Ear Control albums were released on the ESP label, do you have any comments to make about Bernard Stollman?

JT: Well, that was a mysterious relationship. Stollman was able to record all these jazz albums with a whole bunch of different people in a short period of time. Since many of these musicians didn't have any records out, they were quite eager to record for ESP -- and I'm sure most of them never got paid anything at all.

Oppro: Did you ever receive any money from ESP?

JT: No, not in royalties, just a fee for the initial recording sessions. And when you try to contact Stollman, he doesn't respond. I heard from Rudd that he has gone to Stollman and gotten money out of him; basically bugged him, almost forced him, to give Rudd the money that was owed to him. On the other hand, Stollman did a good job promoting the whole avant garde jazz movement. I think without ESP, the music wouldn't have been known that well. The label helped to create interest in the music and all the musicians in New York making the music.

[Lois Gilbert]

I got jump in again. Very few jazz artists see royalties. I'm talking about paying the cats to record.

Ask any artist what they think about ESP and if they ever saw a dime. Some distributors will take anything, so that's not credence to any label. I WORKED for him. I know his practices.

Originally Posted by Lois Gilbert

I got jump in again. Very few jazz artists see royalties. I'm talking about paying the cats to record.

Ask any artist what they think about ESP and if they ever saw a dime.

okay, here again is John Tchicai:

Oppro: Did you ever receive any money from ESP?

JT: No, not in royalties, just a fee for the initial recording sessions. And when you try to contact Stollman, he doesn't respond. I heard from Rudd that he has gone to Stollman and gotten money out of him; basically bugged him, almost forced him, to give Rudd the money that was owed to him. On the other hand, Stollman did a good job promoting the whole avant garde jazz movement. I think without ESP, the music wouldn't have been known that well. The label helped to create interest in the music and all the musicians in New York making the music.


Lois, I certainly don't doubt what you have to say, but two former ESP artists, Murray and Tchicai, as quoted above, seemed to have made their peace with Stollman. And how much money could Stollman have made, actually? Let's say SPIRITUAL UNITY is the best selling release--how many copies do you think it's actually sold in its 40 or so years?

[crawjo]

I'm generally skeptical that there is very much money out there in royalties for ESP records, or BYG for that matter.

I'll continue to buy ESP records because, regardless of whether the artists are getting paid, I know from my own personal experience that an ESP record has been a gateway to an artist's other recordings. It was certainly that way for me with Ayler. The other major ESP artist I'm interested in is Sun Ra, and I have no idea who would get paid for his stuff now. Where do the royalties for the Evidence reissues go?

[John L]

Originally Posted by Lois Gilbert

I got jump in again. Very few jazz artists see royalties. I'm talking about paying the cats to record.

Ask any artist what they think about ESP and if they ever saw a dime. Some distributors will take anything, so that's not credence to any label. I WORKED for him. I know his practices.

That's very interesting that you worked for him and have that impression, Lois. Maybe you could tell us a bit more?

Given what I have read over the years, I hesitated to make a judgment. With perhaps a few exceptions, I imagine that there was not much money in ESP releases. If the whole outfit went bankrupt, then it is understandable that some people didn't get paid. That is the nature of bankruptcy. The real question, of course, is how Stollman behaved himself. I assumed that the business was most likely a labor of love on his part. But perhaps I assumed wrong, given your comments.

How well did the Ayler releases sell back then? I have a very hard time believing the story about millions of dollars in unpaid royalties.

I recall the liner notes to the first Giusseppi Logan disc, where Stollman recalled Logan threatening to kill him before the session if he didn't get his royalties. If I was Stollman, I would have just showed him the door. I mean, if I'm Giusseppi Logan, I would be glad than anybody had agreed to record me and distribute my discs.