Bowling For Columbine

patricia · March-23rd-2003, 10:18 PM

It Won!!!!

First and only really disruptive protest. Fast Music. Hustle off the Stage.

Jack Valenti.... as though nothing had happened.

"The Pianist" star made a little speech, "Let's pray for a peaeful and swift resolution".

So, not far from everybody's mind.

tippy · March-24th-2003, 12:32 AM

Patricia, I saw that too. He didn't present himself very well--whether I agree with him or not is another story--but I imagine it's hard to keep cool when they're coming at you with a big hook.

It reminded me of an Erykah Badu song (which I'm sure I've posted before): >>What good will your words do if they can't understand you.<<

I appreciated Adrien Brody's comments against war. He received a standing ovation. And an academy award. I really like him alot. Haven't even seen his movie, I just like him. And he's from Queens! (Queens was in the Oscar hizz-ouse tonight!)

(Sorry to digress with my frills, Patricia, but I didn't want to start a new thread.)

Bush's best chance is fulltime neverending war time because then he is untouchable. Everyone is biting their tongues and praying for a miracle.

patricia · March-24th-2003, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tippy
Patricia, I saw that too. He didn't present himself very well--whether I agree with him or not is another story--but I imagine it's hard to keep cool when they're coming at you with a big hook.

It reminded me of an Erykah Badu song (which I'm sure I've posted before): >>What good will your words do if they can't understand you.<<

I appreciated Adrien Brody's comments against war. He received a standing ovation. And an academy award. I really like him alot. Haven't even seen his movie, I just like him. And he's from Queens! (Queens was in the Oscar hizz-ouse tonight!)

(Sorry to digress with my frills, Patricia, but I didn't want to start a new thread.)

Bush's best chance is fulltime neverending war time because then he is untouchable. Everyone is biting their tongues and praying for a miracle.

I agree with your comments on Moore and Brody. Anger isn't polite, but Brody did have the footage from his film to soften his message.
Lord knows I'm praying for a miracle.
Many of my friends, Canadians, fought in Vietnam and three of the guys with whom I graduated highschool died there. The faces of those scared boys and that girl brought back the faces of my friends. Tragedy that didn't have to happen. They are children.

What broke my heart was one of the POW's being asked if he had come to Iraq to kill Iraqi people, to which he answered that he didn't come to kill anyone, that he had come to "fix broke stuff".

The television stations in the U.S. have not shown the film that we've seen in Canada, of the captured U.S. service people, although they certainly don't hesitate to show Iraqi soldiers, dead on the ground.
I am repulsed by the horror, but that's what war is.
I want them home and this to be settled some other way, but hell will freeze over before that will happen. So sad.
No easy way out now.

moneyp · March-24th-2003, 12:59 AM

I liked Bowling for Columbine, and while I share Moore's outlook, I think he made a real ass out of himself tonight. I know he sees himself as a guerilla of sorts, but I seriously doubt that his public outbursts really do his cause any good, and as someone who resides on his side of the political fence (mostly), I sometimes wish he would shut up. We're not all reactionaries.

Bringing up the other documentary nominees with him was a nice gesture, though.

Brody rocked. Smooched Halle Berry, shook off the "get off the stage" music with elan, didn't thank his publicist and delivered some eloquent and sincere sentiments without preaching or sensationalising. Best Oscar speech ever.

patricia · March-24th-2003, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mone peterson
I liked Bowling for Columbine, and while I share Moore's outlook, I think he made a real ass out of himself tonight. I know he sees himself as a guerilla of sorts, but I seriously doubt that his public outbursts really do his cause any good, and as someone who resides on his side of the political fence (mostly), I sometimes wish he would shut up. We're not all reactionaries.

Bringing up the other documentary nominees with him was a nice gesture, though.

Brody rocked. Smooched Halle Berry, shook off the "get off the stage" music with elan, didn't thank his publicist and delivered some eloquent and sincere sentiments without preaching or sensationalising. Best Oscar speech ever.

I saw "Columbine" with Erin and was pleased that it made her think about it's subject matter. Not a small accomplishment.
I agree that Moore isn't polished and sophistocated, but his outburst was sincere. Brody delivered a similar sentiment and, I think, was better received because of his gentle demeanor and the footage from his film didn't hurt. Great speech and terrific dip-kiss.

Michael Moore is a plain-spoken guy with a message, while carried in a lunchbox, isn't any less valid than Brody's.
Probably not the best platform, but I can't condemn Moore.

BTW, did you see the "peace" sign that Susan Sarandon flashed on her way to the podium??

moneyp · March-24th-2003, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by patricia
I agree that Moore isn't polished and sophistocated, but his outburst was sincere. Brody delivered a similar sentiment and, I think, was better received because of his gentle demeanor and the footage from his film didn't hurt.

*snip*

Michael Moore is a plain-spoken guy with a message, while carried in a lunchbox, isn't any less valid than Brody's.
Probably not the best platform, but I can't condemn Moore.

I have to disagree, Pat. Moore's "message" was Bush is a moron, the election is a farce, the reasons behind the war are a farce. It's less valid because it strays far from the point. Pointing out that Bush is a moron doesn't resolve or suggest anything. I'm not criticising Moore's bluntness or his lunchbox. I'm criticising the direction of his message.

Quote:

BTW, did you see the "peace" sign that Susan Sarandon flashed on her way to the podium??

Yeah, I did. Babs looked like she wanted to say something and thought better of it (and thank god... I hate that woman).

BTW, we had a great gambling game going on here where people were making side bets on whether or not the person at the mic would make a reference to the war. I came ahead fifteen bucks thanks to Chris Cooper and the gent who introduced the clip of Frida (who Mel was positively lusting after). Somebody put up twenty bucks that Paul Simon would say or do *something.* It got very tense.

Angie · March-24th-2003, 02:17 AM

Well I watched and I'm glad Michael Moore won an Oscar with 'Bowling for Columbine'. He was a long shot. He got cleaned up and put on a tuxedo, but I just knew that he wouldn't be able to resist the temptation to make a statement. He's a little rough around the edges. Will he be invited back to the annual Oscar celebrations, or was this it?

Yes, I caught Susan Sarandon's peace sign as she made her way to the microphone . She's cool.

I did not miss Joan Rivers or the red carpet!

It was a nice diversion from watching war on tv.

moneyp · March-24th-2003, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Angie
Well I watched and I'm glad Michael Moore won an Oscar with 'Bowling for Columbine'. He was a long shot. He got cleaned up and put on a tuxedo, but I just knew that he wouldn't be able to resist the temptation to make a statement. He's a little rough around the edges. Will he be invited back to the annual Oscar celebrations, or was this it?

No, I don't think he'll be invited back. They haven't invited back Sacheen Littlefeather...

Ron Thorne · March-24th-2003, 02:41 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mone peterson
I have to disagree, Pat. Moore's "message" was Bush is a moron, the election is a farce, the reasons behind the war are a farce. It's less valid because it strays far from the point. Pointing out that Bush is a moron doesn't resolve or suggest anything. I'm not criticising Moore's bluntness or his lunchbox. I'm criticising the direction of his message.

I understand that the thrust of Michael Moore's comments were as you suggested. I believe the word Michael Moore used to characterize Bush's claim to the presidency, the war, etc. was "fictitious". I didn't hear the word "moron" or "farce" used by Moore, unless our broadcast was censored. Of course, I live in a "foreign country" where other Americans have actually asked what kind of money we use, why don't the igloos melt, etc., so ...

Having said that, I don't think Moore reached much of anyone who wasn't already a member of the choir. I'll defend his right to use a show such as the Academy Awards as a platform, though. What makes Adrian Brody's remarks any more credible? Style? Appearance? Less in-your-face? More appealing and palatable perhaps, but not necessarily any more sincere or on-target.

Sergio Zamora · March-24th-2003, 02:55 AM

I didn't see the show, but I'm glad Moore said what he said. With all the effort the producers went to only have compliant presenters who'd keep shut, the only people they couldn't control were the award winners. Good for him.

moneyp · March-24th-2003, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ron Thorne
I believe the word Michael Moore used to characterize Bush's claim to the presidency, the war, etc. was "fictitious". I didn't hear the word "moron" or "farce" used by Moore, unless our broadcast was censored. Of course, I live in a "foreign country" where other Americans have actually asked what kind of money we use, why don't the igloos melt, etc., so ...

Okay, so remove the "moron" part, but the rest of my statement still stands. No, he didn't say farce, but he's clearly alleging it. The election results are fictitious, the reasons for going to war are fictitious, shame on Bush, we don't support him, as if we haven't been watching CNN interviewing protestors saying the exact same thing. I'm sure if Bush knows the slightest thing about Michael Moore, he already knows his stance on this.

Quote:

Having said that, I don't think he reached much of anyone who wasn't already a member of the choir. I'll defend his right to use a show such as the Academy Awards as a platform, though. What makes Adrian Brody's remarks any more credible? Style? Appearance? Less in-your-face?

Oy. ONE MORE TIME. I'm not debating his delivery, his bluntness, or even the "appropriateness" of it. I don't give a fig about the debating the decorum of the Oscar ceremony, alright? (Although someone here called it "plain bad manners" and I won't argue with that, either).

And the difference is that Brody, unlike Moore, isn't making a statement or criticising anyone, he's expressing a sentiment. "I *hope* this ends swiftly and peacefully." His credibility can only be determined to the extent that you can read his mind.

I'm criticising Moore's statement from the standpoint of someone who would like to have seen the opportunity of this very public forum, if it was going to be used, with more purpose than to repeat the same old rant.

Al in NYC · March-24th-2003, 03:22 AM

Well, I certainly support Michael's right to say whatever he wants, and I'm pretty much completely on his side, but I must say that I cringe whenever he opens his mouth -- very much including his Oscar "moment". He and I travelled in somewhat the same circles back in Michigan in the '80's, and I always found him quite goofy, overly excitable, kinda aggravating, completely unsubtle in his approach, all over the place in his thinking and expression, and, frankly, more than a little clueless on the deeper history, ideology, and literature behind some of his causes celebre. Like many others who knew him "when," I'm rather surprised and fascinated by the extent of his success (although I did like "Roger & Me" quite a lot, and thought that "Bowling" was interesting in spots too). In many ways though he's the Limbaugh of the left.

Ron Thorne · March-24th-2003, 03:27 AM

Please excuse me for not "getting it" the first time, Moné. I'm tired, too.

Cheers, and sleep tight.

Peace~

· I'm glad that I wasn't poster #666 in The Alley.

gonzo · March-24th-2003, 03:43 AM

both films are excellent!!, but what kind of society do we live in that chastises a man who is acting upon his rights of free speech and celebrate a man who is a convicted, fugitive, CHILD MOLESTER. for god's sake he drugged her and then sodomized her, and all michael moore did was speak the truth. do any of you have preteen daughter??!! one gets applause, one gets booed.

moneyp · March-24th-2003, 04:33 AM

Comments from a friend of mine on Moore's speech. If Moore had actually said something along these lines, I'd be applauding him.

"So, what did you expect? You think Michael Moore's going to say nothing? Well, I'll tell what I think. For almost two years we've been told that we should shut up and not ask questions, and that dissent is somehow un-American (as if blind obedience to authority is somehow an American quality) and that whatever occasion for speaking out is not the right one. Protesters should stay home. We should all just salute and follow our leaders into war. We should stand by while extremist zealots gut our Constitution, cynically and obscenely exploiting the atrocity of 9/11 to attack our freedoms, to attack women and minorities and the poor and those who are not fundamentalist Christians. And we're supposed to shut up. But Michael Moore doesn't shut up. He's using any avenue he can to express a different point of view. And it's not as if the media is bursting with different points of view. We need more people like him, and I for one am grateful. If you want a tame little frightened 1950s America where people cower and only say safe things, then you're welcome to it."

Sand · March-24th-2003, 04:47 AM

BOWLING FOR COLUMBINE
Michael Moore and Michael Donovan
ACCEPTANCE SPEECH
Michael Moore: Whoa. On behalf of our producers Kathleen Glynn and Michael Donovan from Canada, I'd like to thank the Academy for this. I have invited my fellow documentary nominees on the stage with us, and we would like to — they're here in solidarity with me because we like nonfiction. We like nonfiction and we live in fictitious times. We live in the time where we have fictitious election results that elects a fictitious president. We live in a time where we have a man sending us to war for fictitious reasons. Whether it's the fictition of duct tape or fictition of orange alerts we are against this war, Mr. Bush. Shame on you, Mr. Bush, shame on you. And any time you got the Pope and the Dixie Chicks against you, your time is up. Thank you very much.
( http://www.oscars.com/oscarnight/winners/win_32297.html)

Gary Delligatti · March-24th-2003, 06:10 AM

I am also a fan of Michael Moore, loved "Bowling for Columbine" and loved the book, "Stupid White People". I also think he kinda made an ass out of himself as well. I respect the right he has in voicing his opinion, I just don't think the Oscar's is the place for it.
How do you all feel about it? Is it the right venue to voice a political opinion?

GaryD

Jimmy Cantiello · March-24th-2003, 07:02 AM

So, did they give any Oscars out and show any clips from movies or did everyone who went onstage make a political speech?............

Yeah, yeah, I used one of those stupid little emoticons, what's it to ya?

patricia · March-24th-2003, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jimmy Cantiello
So, did they give any Oscars out and show any clips from movies or did everyone who went onstage make a political speech?............

Yeah, yeah, I used one of those stupid little emoticons, what's it to ya?

Yes, Jimmy, they handed out the statues and "Chicago" cleaned up. The majority of the recipients did not make anti-war speeches and I was not surprised.
In an industry which depends on the public's support of their work, by seeing their films, the risk of voicing dissent is high, so I suspect that most, who feel as Moore clearly does, decided not to say anything.
I think that Mone' makes an interesting point about the young woman who accepted Marlon Brando's statue for "The Godfather" and spoke of the plight of the American Indian. Even Brando didn't deliver the point himself. She sank out of sight, never to be seen again.
It's easy to condemn Moore and stand with those who don't want to make waves.

Ron,
When I commented on the contrast between Moore and Brody's demeanor, I meant that Moore was being true to his feelings, as was Brody. The message I took, from both their comments, was that the war is an unnessesary obscenity which could have been avoided and should have been avoided.
Nicole Kidman lamented the war also, but was very careful to hide her anger, if she felt anger

This morning, Moore's little speech was featured on the morning news on CBC Newsworld. It was shown after a discussion of the apparantly bloodless war that Americans are seeing.
Good taste and war are contradictory terms.

Tanager · March-24th-2003, 10:04 AM

My wife actually asked me, "why did Brody kiss Halle Berry?" I stared, slackjawed, then managed to gasp out, "because he could."

tippy · March-24th-2003, 10:12 AM

Quote:

I'm criticising Moore's statement from the standpoint of someone who would like to have seen the opportunity of this very public forum, if it was going to be used, with more purpose than to repeat the same old rant.

That sums it up for me.

By the way, did you guys notice how *pissed* off Halle looked after Brody kissed her like that?

patricia · March-24th-2003, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by tippy
That sums it up for me.

By the way, did you guys notice how *pissed* off Halle looked after Brody kissed her like that?

I noticed that Halle passed her hand over her lips and was not smiling. But, as was said earlier he did it because he could and how many of our guys would have passed on the opportunity?
I blame him for a certain lapse in propriety, but only gently.

patricia · March-24th-2003, 10:38 AM

double post.

Jazzooo · March-24th-2003, 10:53 AM

Ok, a lot of thoughts after reading this thread.

First of all, as for the lady who made the speech on behalf of Brando "Never being invited back..." Come on. She wasn't invited in the first place, and besides she's not a talented filmmaker like Moore. He will be back, and if he is blackballed from the awards, what does that say about our much vaunted tolerence for freedom of speech in this country?

Second, I thought Hallie Berry's obvious revulsion, some moments AFTER the kiss was either hamming it up for the camera to steal attention away from the award-winner or just in bad taste. Graceless. Either way, I think people should have booed *her*. Come on, Hallie--are you now incapable of accepting that sometimes, in a sweep of emotion, people get carried away and act a little weird? Don't you remember...YOUR ACCEPTANCE SPEECH AT LAST YEAR'S OSCARS, FOR EXAMPLE?

Third--one big difference between Moore and Brody that no one will admit to was the presentation of a thin, well dressed PROFESSIONAL ACTOR versus a chaotic, obese and slovenly man wearing a rented tux that didn't--couldn't--quite fit. As Steve Martin so beautifully pointed out, in Hollywood you can succeed whether you're tall or short, thin or skinny.

Fourth: Mone said this:
"If Moore had actually said something along these lines, I'd be applauding him.

"So, what did you expect? You think Michael Moore's going to say nothing? Well, I'll tell what I think. For almost two years we've been told that we should shut up and not ask questions, and that dissent is somehow un-American (as if blind obedience to authority is somehow an American quality) and that whatever occasion for speaking out is not the right one. Protesters should stay home. We should all just salute and follow our leaders into war. We should stand by while extremist zealots gut our Constitution, cynically and obscenely exploiting the atrocity of 9/11 to attack our freedoms, to attack women and minorities and the poor and those who are not fundamentalist Christians. And we're supposed to shut up. But Michael Moore doesn't shut up. He's using any avenue he can to express a different point of view. And it's not as if the media is bursting with different points of view. We need more people like him, and I for one am grateful. If you want a tame little frightened 1950s America where people cower and only say safe things, then you're welcome to it."
"

Mone', I believe that's pretty much what Moore said in a nutshell. And the continuing tongue clucking about this guy taking up 40 seconds of tv time (on a show that most of us profess to hate) to actually speak his mind proves his point.

As for him saying "the same old thing..." that's ridiculous. When was the last time you saw anyone say on TV (other than Politically Incorrect or an HBO special) without equivocation that he believed that our presidential election was fictitious and that this the war, only days old, was being fought for fictitious reasons? Don't confuse the chat on a jazz BBS for what Moore and others did last night.

I did groan in the middle of his rant, just like I groaned at the little Hispanic actor's speech. I groan at speeches, that's what I do. But in retrospect, I think the problem is more mine than Moore's.

tippy · March-24th-2003, 11:14 AM

>>I did groan in the middle of his rant, just like I groaned at the little Hispanic actor's speech. I groan at speeches, that's what I do. But in retrospect, I think the problem is more mine than Moore's.<<

That's a possibility. Good looking people can get away with anything and Michael, well he doesn't cut such a fine figure in Hollywood terms.

I think Brody's sucking Halle's face was splended but I don't blame her for being revolted either...he did clearly slobber all over her. She saved her revulsion for after she'd left the podium so she was compliant for the audience. I don't blame either of them for their reactions.

Jazzooo · March-24th-2003, 11:21 AM

he didn't "clearly slobber" all over her, Tip. Don't forget that you were watching two professional actors--in fact, both had recently been awarded for being the tops in their trade. I think he was acting as if he was passionately kissing her (I doubt there was any tongue involved), and she was acting like she had slobber on her lower lip...but like i pointed out, many moments had passed. That slobber would have been wiped up already. The more I think about it, the more I believe that she was just hamming it up for a little extra attention and maybe a laugh that didn't materialize, so she played it like she was pissed.

What, you don't think actors think about getting a little extra attention?

tippy · March-24th-2003, 11:23 AM

You are obviously correct, Jazzoo. Please excuse me.

Truth be told, I think we are both wrong. My very first impression was that her display was for her husband and her husband only. ;>)

Tanager · March-24th-2003, 11:24 AM

I'll admit - a gentler kiss with a little more . . . grace might have been more welcome.

As for the assertion that most JC men would have done the same...I frankly doubt most of us would have had the cojones. I damned sure wouldn't have (but I'd have dreamed about it for a while afterwards).

Jazzooo · March-24th-2003, 11:59 AM

Tippy, if you're being sarcastic...I'll have to kiss you.

tippy · March-24th-2003, 12:04 PM

I amended Jazzooo...

>>Truth be told, I think we are both wrong. My very first impression was that her display was for her husband and her husband only. ;>)

If you catch my drift. Who knows, they might be married in six months. lol