any thoughts on Vandermark?

[tyrone d.c. washington]

Since Mr. Vandermark seems to be destined to become one of the most versatile & ambitious jazzmusicians/composers of the 21st century, i'd be curious to know your thoughts on his work? there's a whole lot it around these days. Seems a bit humourless character, thou. and i'm not so sure about the crew cut.

share, people, share.

-tyrone-

[Paul B]

I think he is a good, but highly overrated, musician. For me, any greatness he has lies not in his playing and composing, but in his ability to put various groups together. He's made a lot of music happen--but I don't think he is a very happening musician.

Bye-ya

[Pete C]

Originally Posted by Paul B

I think he is a good, but highly overrated, musician. For me, any greatness he has lies not in his playing and composing, but in his ability to put various groups together. He's made a lot of music happen--but I don't think he is a very happening musician.

Bye-ya

I generally agree, though I wouldn't go that far. I think the V5 can be an excellent group, partly because of the other players. The last time I saw them, though, they appeared to have lost a lot of steam.

[Brian Olewnick]

Originally Posted by Pete C

The last time I saw them, though, they appeared to have lost a lot of steam.

Ironic.....

[Sergio Zamora]

Originally Posted by Pete C

I generally agree, though I wouldn't go that far. I think the V5 can be an excellent group, partly because of the other players. The last time I saw them, though, they appeared to have lost a lot of steam.

At this point, I'd rather hear other projects like Spaceways, Inc. I think the V5 is great, but I'm not too interested in getting any more stuff. I'd like to hear more about the live box, though

Nice invisible jukebox in the latest Wire.

[kyrre_laastad]

i have a lot of respect for him, but lately i've grown a bit out of him. i saw him in a duo with paal nilssen-love last wednesday and it was something somewhat of a drag. he doesn't have the intensity of someone like mats gustafsson, and he seems a bit overly serious and academic. that doesn't have to be a bad thing, but if it puts barriers on the playing it is.

i dig his compositions, though, and i think that the terriotory band is one of the most interesting large ensembles happening at this time (not that there are that many, though).

and school days is fantastic.

[Rob Damen]

I believe I don't own many records by Ken V, but I saw him in concert a few years ago with Mats Gustafsson, and it was a mind-blowingly exciting concert. One of the most intense shows I've seen. The show made me a Mats convert right off, but for whatever reason, I didn't pick up much of Ken's stuff afterward. Most of the music was a free/post-bop kind of blowout, and they just nailed it.

I met Ken V after the show, and I have to say I disagree with the humorless/lack of personality dig at the beginning of this thread. I found him to be very personable. And we had a nice chat about Jimmy Giuffre and his influence on jazz.

The last time I remember Ken V on record was with Misha Mengelberg doing Monk tunes with Drake. I don't go back to it often.

I'm going to guess that overall Vandermark is better live than on record.

Cheers,

Rob

[SilentKnowledge]

I enjoy his work. Perhaps my favorite grouping of his is FME; I really enjoyed their latest album: Underground.

[Captain Hate]

Originally Posted by Rob Damen

I met Ken V after the show, and I have to say I disagree with the humorless/lack of personality dig at the beginning of this thread. I found him to be very personable.

That's my take on him too; he looks kind of dour but is very approachable. Another thing I'll say in his favor is that he tours tirelessly and is not shy about getting his music out in front of people. He's one of the few jazz artists that makes this godforsaken shithole of improv a regular stop, for which I'm grateful. And most of his groups are very interesting, particularly School Days.

Unlike Sergio, I don't find Spaceways, Inc. interesting at all, which is unusual in that I consider KVDM more of an R&B honker than I do a jazz player. I'm sure I've seen him over a half dozen times in the last few years (DKV trio, AALY, V5, School Days/Atomic, FME and at least two other combinations) and have enjoyed every event. Perhaps he could use somebody putting the nix on his voluminous releases more; although he *does* have a pretty high batting average.

[Uli]

I don't know if V5 is still a working band. Have heard thru the grapevine that Jeb Bishop is taking a break from performing due to health problems with his ears. Don't know if it's true.

[Captain Hate]

Originally Posted by Uli

I don't know if V5 is still a working band. Have heard thru the grapevine that Jeb Bishop is taking a break from performing due to health problems with his ears. Don't know if it's true.

Wow, I wonder if that's why he stopped playing the guitar. I tried talking about that with him one time and he was very disinterested in discussing it; which is ok. I know Vandermark liked what the guitar added to the V5.

[Stephen Stralka]

I enjoy his music, but the dedications have always bugged me. I’m sure it’s meant as a sincere tribute to the musicians and artists he’s dedicating the songs to, but it makes him seem sort of self-conscious and pedantic. I’d much prefer it if he let his compositions speak for themselves.

I think this is related to the perception that he's a bit lacking in passion or intensity, and that his approach is a bit academic. It's just a minor reservation for me, though, since I do enjoy a lot of his stuff -- the DKV Trio, the Territory Band, and so on. Design in Time with Robert Barry and Tim Mulvenna is a good one.

[Nick]

Originally Posted by Uli

I don't know if V5 is still a working band. Have heard thru the grapevine that Jeb Bishop is taking a break from performing due to health problems with his ears. Don't know if it's true.

Last I heard Ken had put the V5 on hold "for at least a year". This is the first I've heard of any problem with Jeb Bishop's ears but I read somewhere (on this board maybe) that he was leaving the Brotzmann tentet.

I'm a HUGE Vandermark fan. I agree that some of his more recent studio albums may be a bit flat (Elements of Style, the album with The Gold Sparkle Band) but I've seen him live about 25 times, in many different lineups, and have never been disappointed. Territory Band 4 was THE live show of 2004 for me.

[SilentKnowledge]

Originally Posted by Stephen Stralka

I enjoy his music, but the dedications have always bugged me. I’m sure it’s meant as a sincere tribute to the musicians and artists he’s dedicating the songs to, but it makes him seem sort of self-conscious and pedantic. I’d much prefer it if he let his compositions speak for themselves.

Though surely, one could make the same claim on Anthony Braxton.

[Nate Dorward]

Originally Posted by SilentKnowledge

Though surely, one could make the same claim on Anthony Braxton.

But Braxton only rarely directly appends the dedications to the titles (the main instance I'm aware of is For Alto). He doesn't go out of his way to draw attention to them as KVDM does. Often (e.g. the Willisau set) the dedications are only given by Graham Lock in his liner notes or elsewhere.

On Organissimo one poster supplied a complete list of all dedications on the massive 12CD set just out on Not Two--as follows:

Pamela Zarubica
Art Laboe
Hal Zeiger
Jim Guercio
Henry Vestine
Alice Stewart
Lillian Rudolph
Mark Cheka
Herb Cohen
Tom Wilson
Fyllis
Lucille
Jack Tillar
Don Cerveris
Vic Mortenson
Terry Kirkman
Frankie Lee Simms
Sonny Boy Williamson
Buddy Guy
Albert Collins
Little Walter
Maurice Ravel
Joe Polly

Don & Dewey
Lee Zagon
Steve Mann
Skip Diamond
Silvestre Revueltas
Arnold Schoenberg
Joe Perrino
Jerry Ullberg
Donna #1
Donna #2
Loeb & Leopold
Sacco & Vanzetti
Gene & Eunice
Robert Craft
Carl Greenhouse
Dave Aerni
Bob Keene
Nick Venet
Jim Economides
Alois Haba
Leo Ornstein
Elvis Presley
Barry McGuire

Don Julian
Tiny Tim
Cordwainer Smith
Theodore Sturgeon
Robert Sheckley
Randy De Wees
Dick Barber
Eberhard Kronhausen
Yves Tanguy
Lenny Bruce
Ravi Shankar
Chatur Lal
N. C. Mullick
Jules Feiffer
The Bokelmans
Floyd
Ernie Tosi
Shirley Eiler
Mr. Ballard
Brian Epstein
David Crosby
Herman Rudin
Joe De Santis

Bruce Gordon
Frank De Cova
Roland Kirk
Wolfman Jack
Snuff Garrett
Molly Bee
Ernie Freeman
Lew Irwin
Fred C. Dobbs
John Tasker Howard
Cecil Forsythe
Charles Brown
James Joyce
George Di Carl
Diane Baker
Melvin Belli
Bulent Arel
Mauricio Kagel
Leonard Allen
Dr. Brossman
Jerry Murnane
Uncle Ed
The Hypnotist

Animal Huxley
Salvador Dali
Vincent Persichetti
Carol
Sabicas
Charles Middleton
Lance Reardon
Sabu
J. Arthur Rank
Luigi Nono
Sylvia Brigham
Steffie
Avedis Zildjian
Little Arthur Matthews
Bob Dylan
Joan Baez
Bill Stulla
Rosemarie De Camp
Bobby Jamieson
B. Mitchell Reed
Cordy
Ruthie
Joyce

Jesse Kaye
Phil Spector
Evy
Lyn Johnson
Pete
Leonard Gorczyca
Don Vliet
Pepper
Lauren
Charles Mingus
Pierre Boulez
Anton Webern
Igor Stravinsky
Willie Dixon
Guitar Slim
Edgar Varese
Muddy Waters
Howlin' Wolf
Elmer Valentine
Phil Tanzini
John Beck
Mario
Bob Reiner

Eric Dolphy
Bram Stoker
Cecil Taylor
Bill Evans
Johnny Otis
Preston Love
Slim Harpo
Karl Kohn
Bob Narciso
Johnny Guitar Watson
Tim Sullivan
Sonny Tufts
John Wayne
Clarence Gatemouth Brown
Junior Madeo
Jeff Harris
Bobby Atler
Daddy-O Curtis Crump
Karlheinz Stockhausen
Joe Huston
Chuck Higgins
Big Jay McNeely

Jim Sherwood
Sandy Schwanekamp
Nadine Reyes
Kaye Sherman
Donald Woods
Richard Berry
Huggy Boy
Vernon Greene
Hunter Hancock
Willie Mae Thornton
Lightnin' Slim
Roger Huntington Sessions
Charles Ives
Lawrence Ferlinghetti
Terry Wimberly
Johnny Franklin
Teddy Bunn
Jeepers
Paul Buff

[SilentKnowledge]

Thanks Nate; I too was going to post that Braxton's dedications are not at "conspicious" as Vandermark's.

Regards,

Alexander

[Nick]

That list's a little hard to believe. There aren't nearly that many tunes on the entire box and most of the tunes have already been dedicated to someone.

[efrendv]

Hi, new to the bbs here!
I generally think Vandermark's quite overrated. Some of his stuff I find pretty good (basically the Territory Band, FME, Spaceways Inc's "Version Soul") but going as far as giving him a big grant or considering him the great hope of jazz is a bit over the top. He's definitely a dinamizer of Chicago's jazz, but many other musicians have promoted their respective scenes without so much fanfare. I consider Vandermark an average free jazz sax player, and I wouldn't say he's an exceptional composer either. His musical baggage is obviously quite large, but that doesn't necessarily translate into a good output.
I'm much more fond of Gustafsson, just to name another contemporary musician from KV's generation.

Sorry to begin with a negative opinion!

[kyrre_laastad]

i had a quick chat with ken about kevin drumm and territory band when i saw him on wednesday and he was very nice and all. he said that kevin had taken a hiatus from performing live, but that he was optimistic in regards to mista minista drumm working more again.

i think his dedications is kinda cool, but it's still sorta namedroppyish.

and his liner notes to boom boom by atomic is beautiful.

[walto]

I'm fond of his father, Stu.

[Gary Sisco]

I don't agree at all that he's overrated, whatever that term means, since the rating is necessarily done by the rater, each in his or her turn. I think he's a wonderful, multifaceted musician *and* a great bandleader (something in very short supply today so don't minimize this talent when you see it; most cats don't have it and the results are obvious) *and* a great organizer of bands and projects (another talent in short supply, so ditto). Plenty of cats can play. Very few can do these other things. I also very much respect Vandermark's bringing the punk DIY energy into jazz. Alright, everybody in the van for the next three weeks. Talk about putting the music out there in front of people -- and often new people as well.

There are two indispensable poles around which much of free jazz (for lack of a better term) in America revolve: Ken Vandermark and William Parker. Take either out of the picture and much of the scene will be left scuffling, at best, about a devastated scene that looks like the smoking set of some apocalypse movie. Some others are label owners and thank goodness for them, too. People like Michael Ehler and Steve Joerg and others, who aren't just putting out records but making and building a scene that can have a life of its own.

Hey, without all of these other things *in addition* to talent, imagination, and chops, you have cats with talent, imagination and chops ... hoping the phone rings soon.

In Vandermark's case, though, we also have to talk about which Vandermark and which project. He's so prolific that I doubt that any but a tiny few of us have heard his work as a whole. I'm personally a big fan of the Vandermark 5, DKV Trio, Spaceways, Inc., and Territory Band, but there are other of his projects that I've never heard at all. The only one of the outfits I've had the chance to hear live was Vandermark 5 and they were terrific (it was during the tour for "Acoustic Machine").

[efrendv]

Overrated means, at least in this case, to give excessive props to KV for reasons that are in many cases extra-musical. As to his musical achievements, that's clearly a very subjective thing, but I still think he's just practicing the same kind of jazz that's been going on for over 40 years, not better, not worse. I don't mean you have to be extremely innovative for your music to work and be high-quality, it's just that I don't think KV even has a distinctive voice, unlike people like Eskelin or Berne, who imho are doing much more to push the music forward. He may be a great organizer and perhaps he's stirring up a whole scene by himself, but I find the weight of his music to be a bit questionable, particularly when the appraisals by fans and critics get so over the top. He's just another free-jazz player, in my book.

[Gary Sisco]

Well, like I said, that's your book. My book is different.

If only because he couldn't have played with a punk reference 40 years ago.

I'm also one of Ellery's biggest fans (not so hot for Bernes, but I haven't heard that much from him, and he's another who's amazingly prolific, so I qualify my comment). But if the three of them were playing in a large band, I could as easily pick out Vandermark's voice as Ellery's or Bernes'.

What other band sounds like V5? It's as distinctive as Ellery's trio with Parkins/Black. I'd recognize either band within the first few seconds, if I ever had the (amazing) opportunity to hear them on the radio where I live. Fat chance. The only time I ever got to do that was on my own show.

Ditto with the other bands of his that I've heard.

So, clearly, there is more than one take on the cat and his playing, as there are on most others.

[efrendv]

Originally Posted by Gary Sisco

If only because he couldn't have played with a punk reference 40 years ago.

Just to clarify: do you mention "punk" just as a DIY way of approaching things? If so, Vandermark's hardly the only one in a scene that's basically evolving thanks to self-financing, self-promotion, self-anything... Tim Berne, Spring Heel Jack, Barry Guy, Derek Bailey, John Zorn, Mats Gustafsson ... The list is just endless, and since we're at it, these names are also characterized by their ability to spur musicians from their respective communities. Bailey, for instance, has revitalized the improv scene in Barcelona since he's been living here, and that's something we should be thankful for. But his his musical prowess is quite something else.

I guess it all boils down to "different books" as you said.

[Jesse]

Efrendy, welcome to the bbs.
Look forward to reading more pages in your "book."
And not because I share your take on Herr Vandermark...


Jesse

[efrendv]

Originally Posted by Gary Sisco

I'm also one of Ellery's biggest fans (not so hot for Bernes, but I haven't heard that much from him, and he's another who's amazingly prolific, so I qualify my comment). But if the three of them were playing in a large band, I could as easily pick out Vandermark's voice as Ellery's or Bernes'.

I was actually referring to the music itself, not their respective voices on the instrument. I could probably also tell Spaceways Inc. or DKV from other bands, but that's not to say they sound "personal". At least for me, most of what KV does is recouping old traditions via tributes, collaborations, etc. Again, I'm not saying this is something negative (Zorn has done that for most of his career and he's still one of my favorite composers), but many times I hear extremely good opinions on the guy based on aspects beyond the purely musical realm.

[efrendv]

Originally Posted by Jesse

Efrendy, welcome to the bbs.
Look forward to reading more pages in your "book."
And not because I share your take on Herr Vandermark...


Jesse

Thanks Jesse!

Efrén

[Vince Kargatis]

Originally Posted by Gary Sisco

not so hot for Bernes, but I haven't heard that much from him

What have you heard, Gary? I'd be very surprised if you didn't like (or even totally dig) something from the late 80s-early 90s JMT period, like Fractured Fairy Tales or Pace Yourself, based on your other tastes.

[Gary Sisco]

I like "Fractured Fairy Tales." I've not heard many others but those I have didn't do much for me. No doubt if I had more time and more bread, I could check into him further and find plenty else to like. But you know what they say about "if's." An if and a metrocard get you a ride on the bus.

Everyone has a different book, I've decided. The key words in our new friend's post are "to me." Clearly, his case doesn't hold up "to me." But again, note the key words.

And, no, I don't equate DIY with punk or punk with DIY. My own tribe of musicians was DIY before there was punk to talk about, and more DIY than most punks could stand, and for a lot longer. Indeed, the survivors still are, even though some of them are past 60, now. I was referring to Vandermark's music. The punk influence in Vandermark's (and Eskelin's) music is evident to my ears. Nor have I said that Vandermark is "the only one" to have done anything at all. No one is the "only one." Nevertheless, there are few in the jazz world as DIY as Vandermark. Note the key word "few." That would denote by itself that there are others, just not all that many others.

Of course, winning the foundation grant helped pay for it, but it didn't cause it. I also very much appreciate that he spread it around the scene, rather than sitting on it for himself, as many do. (The money's long gone, now, by the way.) I was irritated at first that they'd awarded a cat that young, but as it turns out, he was a prime candidate for it, and he used it very, very well.

For a cat who's only barely turned 40, he's already done more than most ever will in their lifetimes, and certainly he's already done more in his than many of his critics will in theirs.

[Root Doctor]

Originally Posted by Gary Sisco

The punk influence in Vandermark's (and Eskelin's) music is evident to my ears.