Ratliff on black British jazz

[Nate Dorward]

NY Times, April 10, 2005

To Be Young, Gifted and British
By BEN RATLIFF

THE United States used to be the big leagues for the mainstream of jazz: it was the land of paradigms. But not so much anymore. In the past decade, information from the entire history of jazz's development has been swirled around the Earth by the Internet and the rise of academic jazz education. A result has been an aesthetic widening of the genre that has penetrated not just the music's fringes but its core language.

One of the new paradigms comes from a circle of mostly black London-based musicians, cohering around the bass player Gary Crosby and the record label Dune. Since the late 1990's, a lot of good music has come from this group, through a smart jazz-reggae band called Jazz Jamaica; the young saxophonist and part-time rapper Soweto Kinch; the tenor saxophonist Denys Baptiste; the New Orleans-born trumpeter and singer Abram Wilson; and Mr. Crosby himself, a bandleader well known as an incubator of talent.

So what do these new players have? The first answer is a British Afro-Caribbean identity. The second is a movement. They have come together around several guiding ideas: swing, blues feeling, the historical relationship of reggae and jazz, and a commitment to improving stereotypes of Afro-Caribbeans and black Britain in general.

The third answer is summed up in a term that's become fairly widespread among these musicians, as well as the English press: black British jazz.

The phrase is jazz-criticism shorthand meaning that this is music derived from an African-American jazz tradition, with an emphasis on swing. But Mr. Crosby and his colleagues really do talk in terms of race and class; it's their key to understanding what British jazz has been and can become.

In January, I visited a London studio where the new Jazz Jamaica album, "Motown Reloaded," was being mixed. (The album features rearrangements of Motown songs for jazz improvisers over reggae rhythms.) Gary Crosby, Soweto Kinch and Abram Wilson were three of the musicians there, and we broke off from the control room to talk.

Mr. Crosby, 50, is the affable spokesman for the group. English-born of Jamaican parents, he is the nephew of the ska guitarist Ernest Ranglin.

About 15 years ago, he sensed that a black jazz scene in Britain wasn't just going to explode on its own. In the 1980's, he had been a founding member of the saxophonist Courtney Pine's collective organization and big band, Jazz Warriors, which, he said, "used to provide an outlet for a lot of young black musicians wanting to play the music."

"There wasn't any other environment or framework to develop from just being a musician to playing jazz," Mr. Crosby said. "Practically every black player - or I suppose you could use the term 'urban' player, because there were a lot of working-class white kids who got involved - didn't feel that the academies would suit them."

Jazz Warriors splintered, and from it, in 1991, Mr. Crosby formed Tomorrow's Warriors, another collective that held organized jam sessions. Mr. Crosby used it as a farm team, feeding various members into his own working band, Nu Group, as well as the Jazz Jamaica band. In working with younger, less schooled players, he found himself forcing an emphasis toward swing.

"In the Jazz Warriors, we'd be playing world music," Mr. Crosby said, "and there were all kinds of battles to make the band more commercial. But when I started this session at the Jazz Cafe, every Saturday afternoon, we just created a nice buzz there, know what I mean? It just caught people's imagination: an all-black, British-born group playing bebop."

Granted, this was 1991. But from an American perspective, it sounds upside down. Of course all-black groups would play bebop - or all-white groups, or mixed. Talent in the United States is abundant, and the shared musical language well mapped out.

But Mr. Crosby's young charges faced greater obstacles. In his story of the emergence of black British jazz, various "politically minded" people stretched the system open so black players could have their chance: an educator who started a jazz course at the Guildhall School of Music and Drama, an early owner of London's Jazz Cafe who "used to create situations where you'd get young black and white musicians working together," and so forth. Mr. Crosby kept up his weekly sessions, at the Jazz Cafe and then at a new club called the Spice of Life.

Mr. Kinch is 27. The son of Don Kinch, a Barbadian playwright, he graduated from Oxford with a degree in modern history, and practices an alto saxophone style that links bebop with modern players like Greg Osby. And true to the community-building ethos of his colleagues, he has started his own arts organization, Nu Century Arts, based in Birmingham, where he grew up and still lives.

"The vision is very much for the African-Caribbean community in Birmingham, where it's not encouraged amongst our people, really, to go to the theater," Mr. Kinch said.

"Some of the best hip-hop I've listened to, certain forms of community theater in the West Indies - these are part of an African-Caribbean tradition." he said. "At the moment, this urban tag of what people perceive as black is about being garish and loud and instant-gratification. But my parents' generation, my father and myself and some other people, see our people differently."

Back to black British jazz. Most of us don't talk about black American jazz. If we're talking about black-identified jazz, we mean jazz based in blues and swing, which is its mainstream. But now, in the United States, the rise of jazz education argues that jazz is for anyone. Anyway, so many important Latin players have come along in the last decade that talking about the music in black and white terms is dated.

But the fact is that British jazz has mainly been thought of as white jazz. Among the important exceptions are the saxophonist Joe Harriott, who died in 1973, and Mr. Pine. Mr. Kinch, trained in history, goes a little deeper. One of his recent songs, "Snakehips," is about Ken (Snakehips) Johnson, the Guyanese-British bandleader, who ran the West Indian Orchestra, London's most popular swing band in the 1930's.

"Deep down we're all into swing," Mr. Crosby said. "We're black Europeans, and we're not really part of the Eurocentric jazz music."

Mr. Kinch added: "There's this phrase that's bandied around in the States: European jazz. Everyone talks about it like it's a unified idiom. I don't know if we want to be included in that."

"Forget the word," snapped Mr. Crosby. "The meaning of European jazz, it can only come from us. We're the only community in Europe that, racially, has no restrictions. It can only be us."

[Richardo Caerleoni]

Nate...all credit to Courtney, Gary, Julian Joseph etc., but this reads like a record company promo?

"We are black Europeans//not Eurocentric" [Gary Crosby] ...Yeah and......Next ? So produce some "Black European music?" Really? Still Waiting?

Courtney Pine [at his best - is sub Coltrane]

Gary Crosby is a very good bass player - Europe produces them by the tonne.

Julian Joseph is a talented pianist [out of Oscar P., Herbie and McCoy Tyner] and better broadcaster ...as above...

Soweto Kinch plays good Jackie Mclean licks ...So,...?

The one original talent....Steve Williamson...is now never mentioned!



Also, everyone now belatedly bows the knee to Joe Harriot...not before time...I knew him/he was a complicated guy in lots of ways...but he went out on limb...a genius... result, artistic praise... 5 stars 1961 in Downbeat... but no one [whatever race],bought his records, gave him proper gigs, and he ended up sleeping on sofas.

Those records were re-released by Richard Cooke [1990s?] to this "New Black Jazz Generation"?..and sold "Zero"...

This all sounds like hype....Black (UK based) musicians have always had a rough deal in the UK/Europe...See Dizzy Reece. If you were not American, then, later...Even if you were American, the novelty soon wore off. Even Bud Powell in Paris and Dexter in Denmark...if you can see them everynight, then why not ...tomorrow night. But this also applied to Zoot Sims in Paris....Visiting Star to...Oh, Zoot again, Really?

Sorry, its hype looking for a niche...

RC.

[Nate Dorward]

Course it's hype. I was just posting the piece as, er, "information". I haven't actually heard any of the players he profiles.

[mke]

It sounds like record company promo because it's linked to... a record company (Dune) doing its... promo work in the US.

[burning dog]

Originally Posted by Richardo Caerleoni

Nate...all credit to Courtney, Gary, Julian Joseph etc., but this reads like a record company promo?

"We are black Europeans//not Eurocentric" [Gary Crosby] ...Yeah and......Next ? So produce some "Black European music?" Really? Still Waiting?

Courtney Pine [at his best - is sub Coltrane]

Gary Crosby is a very good bass player - Europe produces them by the tonne.

Julian Joseph is a talented pianist [out of Oscar P., Herbie and McCoy Tyner] and better broadcaster ...as above...

Soweto Kinch plays good Jackie Mclean licks ...So,...?

The one original talent....Steve Williamson...is now never mentioned!

Also, everyone now belatedly bows the knee to Joe Harriot...not before time...I knew him/he was a complicated guy in lots of ways...but he went out on limb...a genius... result, artistic praise... 5 stars 1961 in Downbeat... but no one [whatever race],bought his records, gave him proper gigs, and he ended up sleeping on sofas.

Those records were re-released by Richard Cooke [1990s?] to this "New Black Jazz Generation"?..and sold "Zero"...

This all sounds like hype....Black (UK based) musicians have always had a rough deal in the UK/Europe...See Dizzy Reece. If you were not American, then, later...Even if you were American, the novelty soon wore off. Even Bud Powell in Paris and Dexter in Denmark...if you can see them everynight, then why not ...tomorrow night. But this also applied to Zoot Sims in Paris....Visiting Star to...Oh, Zoot again, Really?

Sorry, its hype looking for a niche...

RC.

What happened to Steve Williamson?
I saw him at the Purcell Room with Crosby on bass in the 80's. He seemed very nervous. Lovely guy. |I spoke to the band after the show.

Julian Joseph is a top pianist but very American in style surely. Similar to Kenny Kirkland stylistically I would say. Herbie with a touch of McCoy.

The 80's guys had a fair share of the limelight (thats fair enough). Courtney Pine was on the cover of the NME. When was Peter King on the cover of the Melody Maker?

[Gary Sisco]

I went out and bought a Jazz Jamaica CD once. It was alright but only. If you want to hear some Jamaican jazz, try Monte Alexander and Ernest Ranglin's "Rock Steady!" -- a sleeper from last year that made my year-end list but was, to my knowledge, unnoticed otherwise.

[Uli]

Oh Ben!

[mke]

Originally Posted by Gary Sisco

I went out and bought a Jazz Jamaica CD once. It was alright but only. If you want to hear some Jamaican jazz, try Monte Alexander and Ernest Ranglin's "Rock Steady!" -- a sleeper from last year that made my year-end list but was, to my knowledge, unnoticed otherwise.

Probably because of the dreadful cover!

I have a Jazz Jamaica All-Stars CD, it's OK, but not much more than that. I saw them in concert back in 2000 or 2001 and had pretty much the same impression. However, I like the Soweto Kinch CD quite a bit. Another non-Euro improv (but, not black either) British jazz CD I don't tire of recommending, is Polar Bear's "Dim Lit." Maybe Nate can tell you something about it.

[Richardo Caerleoni]

POINT!..I am not making a racial point here...anyone who plays jazz in the UK has my total support...It has never been easy ...

But compare with Denmark? A population of c. 5.2M (equal to Scotland)....and an AMazing jazz scene...see the "Jazz in Denmark Yearbook"?

RC.

[Gary Sisco]

mke -- Agreed, but people who buy jazz CDs based on quality covers aren't going to buying many. Actually, come to think of it, I don't even see the covers today until the CD arrives in my mailbox. All I see is names and titles. But I can't recall a single time where I bought or didn't buy a jazz release based on the cover.

[Nate Dorward]

Yes, Dim Lit is pretty good--don't they have a new one just out? I think I even may have read about it in the NY Times......

[mke]

Originally Posted by Nate Dorward

Yes, Dim Lit is pretty good--don't they have a new one just out? I think I even may have read about it in the NY Times......

Yes. I haven't heard it yet, though.

[Dr Dave]

"British Jazz"

Tits on a bull. Nothing personal.

[kenny weir]

Originally Posted by Dr Dave

"British Jazz"

Tits on a bull. Nothing personal.

Shit I hope that's a joke. If not, I think you're a chauvinist pig.

[burning dog]

Originally Posted by Dr Dave

"British Jazz"

Tits on a bull. Nothing personal.

Hey. we're not all guys in bowler hats Doc

[Richardo Caerleoni]

Originally Posted by Dr Dave

"British Jazz"

Tits on a bull. Nothing personal.

DAVE...Without being "dramatic"...this guy gave his life for Jazz/was a friend ...and was the equal to anyone? Blakey wanted to hire him?

As Don Byas once said, "If you are going to talk/play crap...please do it quietly?"

NO ARGRUMENT! Listren to the records..........RC. !

[Steve Reynolds]

I know all of it ain't your jazz, dave

but....

Mark Sanders, Evan Parker, Barry Guy, Paul Dunmall, Paul Rogers, John Edwards, Trevor Watts, Miuke Osborne, Stan Tracey, Simon Fell, Alan Wilkinson, John Law, Jon Lloyd, Howard Riley, Paul Lytton and Tony Coe all say hello......

and many others - many playing a lot more vibrant stuff than many americans playing music from 1956.

[JamesH]

On European Jazz -

I think for a lot of us it boils down to a level attachment to the folk elements of American jazz. That is blues, swing, etc. For me, I just have to have those elements or the music loses it's meaning and value for me. Of course that's just me.

The fine pianist Mulgrew Miller stated in a Downbeat article that in some jazz critics and fans search for the newest phase of jazz they're willing to call anything that's excludes folk elements a relevelation (I'm loosely paraphrasing). When in essence all it is is jazz without the blues and swing. Which of course would be more familiar to those with stronger ties to Europe.

This would lead me to several questions:
Does it make sense to talk about the relative value of music from different cultural perspectives? I say no.

Should jazz from Europe really be called something else like the tag rock n' roll used to distinguished itself from the blues? A contentious question to say the least but how about European impov.

Are American jazz fans who have moved from a love of roots traditional jazz to primarily bluesless/swingless jazz trying to make a political statement? Maybe.

Or are they really just more hip and cutting edge then us blues lovers? Uh...NO.

[burning dog]

Originally Posted by JamesH

On European Jazz -

I think for a lot of us it boils down to a level attachment to the folk elements of American jazz. That is blues, swing, etc. For me, I just have to have those elements or the music loses it's meaning and value for me. Of course that's just me.

The fine pianist Mulgrew Miller stated in a Downbeat article that in some jazz critics and fans search for the newest phase of jazz they're willing to call anything that's excludes folk elements a relevelation (I'm loosely paraphrasing). When in essence all it is is jazz without the blues and swing. Which of course would be more familiar to those with stronger ties to Europe.

This would lead me to several questions:
Does it make sense to talk about the relative value of music from different cultural perspectives? I say no.

Should jazz from Europe really be called something else like the tag rock n' roll used to distinguished itself from the blues? A contentious question to say the least but how about European impov.

Are American jazz fans who have moved from a love of roots traditional jazz to primarily bluesless/swingless jazz trying to make a political statement? Maybe.

Or are they really just more hip and cutting edge then us blues lovers? Uh...NO.

Britain is semi detached from Europe musically though. As well as the free improv players there has always been a large element of bebop players who play "American" Jazz with a British accent, and there is still (although lessening) a great interest in the Blues over here. More than in many parts of the USA. Every week you can hear live music at our local Jazz club mostly featuring "bop" or "post bop" bands.

[Steve Reynolds]

Han Bennink doesn't swing?

lordy lordy

[Steve Reynolds]

and what about Louis Moholo?

and have you heard the Italians play there own brand of jazz?

not talking about the guys playing Coltrane licks, talking about Trovesi, Gaslini, Minafra, etc.

more swing, soul and blues in anything they are playing than that coming from the repeat dudes making the same record over on over for criss cross

ear trumpet needed

[Paul B]

I agree with Steve. Though I'm probably not as big a fan of European improv as he is, it's clear that many of the players he mentioned have put a fresh spin on the music. What I'm not sure of is what Kinch and his pals think they are doing that is so radical. "It can only be us?" Gimme a break. I suspect there's more bravado there than brilliance.

Bye-ya.

[John L]

Americans do not have a monopoly on Swing at least since the days of Django

[JamesH]

Hmmm. So the point I hear some making is that, yes jazz from Europe can swing and yes it can include the blues.

To the extent that is the case aren't you just talking about Europeans playing American jazz. Where is the distinction? American jazz is mimicked in many parts of the world. I'm sure, for instance, that the Japanese through their playing American jazz have adopted their own brand of swing. They're still playing American jazz.

To the extent that there is a particular strong European cultural and musical distinction to "European jazz" (and if there isn't I don't think there is much reason to care about it) my original comments apply. Otherwise you're just talking about Europeans copying America. No matter how good a copy. Still a copy.

-----

And Steve, if I recall correctly the "ear trumpet" comment was originally directed against you by Danny D'Imperio aka "DEEP" to describe his disdain for your love of music that at least to his ears had no sense of swing.

[Paul B]

To the extent that is the case aren't you just talking about Europeans playing American jazz. Where is the distinction?

There is no distinction. But it's not a case, IMO, of Europeans playing American jazz. It's a case of Europeans playing jazz. Or, really, of just jazz, plain and simple. The nationalistic take on it seems, at this point, a little lame. Which is why the folks Ratliff quotes seem a bit like blowhards.

That said, with a few exceptions I still think just about every innovation in the music has come from these shores. There are fine players everywhere--to a large degree John is right--but yet.....the real deal is still here. Which is why, in the end, any Brit, Australian, Frenchman, Italian, whatever, will need to show up in New York and deal. That's the only way the nationalities vaporize and the talent speaks for itself.

Bye-ya

[Steve Reynolds]

maybe you oughtta listen to some of these musicians before you sound off about them

Try From G to G by Trovesi

Italian jazz, not American jazz - you decide if it swings and if it's got soul

D'Imperio is some source - the guy was stuck in 1960 musically - maybe the most close-minded person besides Heaney who ever posted here.

[Suibne]

Man, I'd forgotten all about Heaney.....

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by Paul B

There is no distinction. But it's not a case, IMO, of Europeans playing American jazz. It's a case of Europeans playing jazz. Or, really, of just jazz, plain and simple. The nationalistic take on it seems, at this point, a little lame. Which is why the folks Ratliff quotes seem a bit like blowhards.

That said, with a few exceptions I still think just about every innovation in the music has come from these shores. There are fine players everywhere--to a large degree John is right--but yet.....the real deal is still here. Which is why, in the end, any Brit, Australian, Frenchman, Italian, whatever, will need to show up in New York and deal. That's the only way the nationalities vaporize and the talent speaks for itself.

Bye-ya

I do agree that the innovations come from America but obviously the music was also born here. And born out of a distinct cultural emphasis that is very much alive and well in America and it's people.

You're saying the industrialized world is one big mono-culture with Jazz being fair game for all to play adding their unique twist. That's fair. But does the American tradition exist in Europeans? Or are we just talking about notes which are fair game for all to play?

I say what makes the music great is the feeling behind it. And I don't think it's polarizing to say that for European jazz to add value it needs to have it's own feeling not someone else's. I happen to think it does.

And I think the Black European jazz movement Ratliff is talking about may be B.S. But to the extent that certain blacks in Europe see and feel the world differently than whites and it is reflected in their music their efforts to distinguish their music as different is completely valid.

Does anyone remember west coast jazz reaction to Charlie Parker and the popularity of Chet Baker, Mulligan, Konitz. Followed by Hard Bop's reaction led by the Jazz Messengers. Are these types of curture based changes now off limits?

[burning dog]

[QUOTE=JamesH]Hmmm. So the point I hear some making is that, yes jazz from Europe can swing and yes it can include the blues.

To the extent that is the case aren't you just talking about Europeans playing American jazz. Where is the distinction? American jazz is mimicked in many parts of the world. I'm sure, for instance, that the Japanese through their playing American jazz have adopted their own brand of swing. They're still playing American jazz.

To the extent that there is a particular strong European cultural and musical distinction to "European jazz" (and if there isn't I don't think there is much reason to care about it) my original comments apply. Otherwise you're just talking about Europeans copying America. No matter how good a copy. Still a copy.

A copy in the same way that modern US beboppers copy older American boppers, -with there own take on it. You seemed to me to be saying British Jazz wasn't really Jazz, it was Improvized music, now you are saying that if they play blues and swing it is just a copy. I heard a Korean play a Beethoven Violin Concerto, it wasn't a copy of European "Classical " music. British mainstream Jazz may not be stylistically much different to the US model but it is only a copy in a similar way that Terence Blanchard "copied" Freddie Hubbard. What about neo-bop bands from Iowa, why are they less of a copy than a similar band from London? Because the members have US passports? Few of the cultural aspects that gave birth to Jazz were prevalent in Des Moines.

Yes "Blues and Swing" players in Britain may be playing American Jazz but they are no more mimics than modern American players, some of whom have taken it up after a "classical music" education, having not must interest or knowledge of it in their formative years. So I contest that these non American players are expanding the geographical boundaries of a great American Art form. Rejoice!

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by burning dog

A copy in the same way that modern US beboppers copy older American boppers, -with there own take on it. You seemed to me to be saying British Jazz wasn't really Jazz, it was Improvized music, now you are saying that if they play blues and swing it is just a copy. I heard a Korean play a Beethoven Violin Concerto, it wasn't a copy of European "Classical " music. British mainstream Jazz may not be stylistically much different to the US model but it is only a copy in a similar way that Terence Blanchard "copied" Freddie Hubbard. What about neo-bop bands from Iowa, why are they less of a copy than a similar band from London? Because the members have US passports? Few of the cultural aspects that gave birth to Jazz were prevalent in Des Moines.

Yes "Blues and Swing" players in Britain may be playing American Jazz but they are no more mimics than modern American players, some of whom have taken it up after a "classical music" education, having not must interest or knowledge of it in their formative years. So I contest that these non American players are expanding the geographical boundaries of a great American Art form. Rejoice!

Good points dog but you twisted or misused my words a little to get in your digs in at certain American jazz musicians.

I think Europeans taking an American model and copying it can still lead to good jazz. Which in and of itself I find valuable. But that can't lead to profound innovation.

If European jazz has been truly infused with new radical elements not seen in America. Then that is significant. And that should be absorbed and listened to. It might also be differentiated by a different name.

I guess I don't think of jazz as the world's musical whore.

Blues, country, rock n' roll, hip-hop. Are all music's based on the same parent but each has it's own distinctive style. If I changed the basic elements of classical music, for instance played it with African drum beats, nobody would call it classical. Why the anything goes attitude with jazz?