will any musicians out there openly admit to copying other players ?

[danny boy]

first off i appreciate that when learning an instrument it's natural to copy other players to begin with. they are like reference points and probably every single musician has done so to a certain extent. but, christ there's a lot of out and out mimickery going on at the moment.

if i had a tenner for ever sax player trying to sound like Trane, or even just a fiver for every wannabe Miles clone doing the rounds, well lets say i'd probably be lounging around on a beach in the south pacific, smoking cuban cigars drinking, cognac and occasionly setting fire to the odd bankroll just to break the day up.

whats the point in it ? it may be a bit of a cliche, but it seems to me to be nailed on that if you're going to be a musician the one and only all pervading goal should be SELF EXPRESSION. fine if copying a few licks or harmonic approaches takes you there, but damn it - play yourselves!

what gets me are the players out there who not just copy someone here and there, but openly base their entire sound on someones style. there's got to be a million and one sax players trying to play exactly like john coltrane at the moment - give it up, it aint ever going to happen, play for yourself and see what comes out. it might even be an improvement on what went before.

you'll never know til you try.

rant over.

[Steve Reynolds]

what musicians are you talking about?

[danny boy]

i dont see the point in being specific as thats kinda counter to the point, and to be honest it's more reflective of some of the players i've played with who are all pretty much unknown.

[Gary Sisco]

If we don't know who you are talking about, there's nothing to talk about.

[danny boy]

not really, are you telling me you've not been to a club, or turned the radio on and thought 'jesus, this guy's trying so hard to sound like bird/miles/bill evans etc, he's gone and lost his own voice and just sounds like a carbon copy'. maybe not in those presise words, but i doubt its far off.

if i start to name players i think are more guilty than most at this it'd miss the point as i dont see the point making it personal to specific people, but the whole ripping off culture in general.

although maybe at a push, in the late forties you could say there were whole slew of Pres and Bird clones - some might say Getz and Stitt would be up there, but then Getz at least went on to do a whole lot of other stuff, not so sure about Stitt personaly.

anyway, like i say, that becomes subjective - i'm talking about in general terms, and more some of the guys i've played with. i should state that i am a pretty limitted musician of just about zero standing, so i'm not coming at this from some kind of higher ground. maybe it just pisses me off to see technically superior musicians doing nothing with their technique but copying other players.

whats the point of it ? thats what i'm on about.

[Gary Sisco]

Because they have (allegedly) superior technique (highly questionable) doesn't mean that they have anything to say. Most people who copy others (musicians or anyone else for that matter) do it because they don't have anything themselves to say. Knowing how to play an instrument doesn't mean that you have anything of your own to play on it. Most don't, in fact. That's what makes people take notice of musicians who do. As for the rest, let the dead bury the dead. Who cares.

[danny boy]

this is very true - i guess plagarism happens in all artforms, best bet is leave them to it and wait for the real artists to emerge.

[clinthopson]

Where does "influence" end and "plagarism" begin?

I can't hink of any great jazz musician who doesn't have parts of the players of the past in his/her work.

Of course there are couple of guitar players around who couldn't play ahything if they didn't copy Wes Montgomery.

[graypencil]

Originally Posted by clinthopson

Where does "influence" end and "plagarism" begin?

I can't hink of any great jazz musician who doesn't have parts of the players of the past in his/her work.

Of course there are couple of guitar players around who couldn't play ahything if they didn't copy Wes Montgomery.

Clint hit the nail on the head ..everyone while in their learning stages ( and beyond ) is gonna be "influenced" by people that are dealing something they want to absorb, and as one goes along, these "influences" will after namy years meld into a gestalt that becomes "your" style ..

Having said that, I think the "plagirism" issue arises due to a couple factors:

1. The assembly -line method of most jazz education today that stresses only certain eras at the expense of others ..I've heard clinicians moan for years about all the Trane /Brecker/ Lovano ( these days ) tenor players cranked out by these schools ..all facile, with boocoo chops ..but in many cases totally ignorant of anyone from Stan Getz back thru Pres , Webster, and Hawkins..

2. The death of the big bands, jazz clubs, and hence , the death of the "mentor" system of learning to play jazz by the oral tradition of older guys passing it along to the younger ones, griot style ..plus providing a place where the young players could interact (and eventually play with ,when they got their shit together ) with the seasoned guys.
Today, you gotcher Abersold play alongs, you gotcher transcribed solos to memorize, you gotcher everything but one on one human contact to learn your craft.

end of my rant

[Mike Schwartz]

gp;

FAR from a rant, thanks for your fantastic knowledge and perspective!

[graypencil]

Ye Gods ..

I just reread my last post ..

and realized I almost sounded like Wynton Marsalis ..

eek:

Well so be it, I guess ..I agree with him on some things, but I'd still rather listen to Carla Bley, Maria Schneider, or McNeely than the faux duke LCJO .. :

[Dr Dave]

From Bill Crow's wonderful "Jazz Anecdotes":

One night as Gene Quill was leaving the bandstand at Birdland, a young self-appointed critic accosted him.

"All you're doing is playing just like Charlie Parker," he accused.

Gene held out his saxophone.

"Here," he said. "You play just like Charlie Parker!"

[Nate Dorward]

Originally Posted by graypencil

Ye Gods ..

I just reread my last post ..

and realized I almost sounded like Wynton Marsalis ..

eek:

No!! You said the magic word! Run for cover everyone.....!

[walto]

"He who imitates no one is nothing!"

Salvador Dali

Fixed:

Originally Posted by walto

"He who imitates no one is nothing but a big fucking douchebag!"

Salvador Dali Lama

[clinthopson]

Originally Posted by graypencil

..I've heard clinicians moan for years about all the Trane /Brecker/ Lovano ( these days ) tenor players cranked out by these schools .

Phil, isn't ironic that those three would name their major influences.

Of course, their advantage was learning the trade sitting along side, gigging with and listening to Hawkins, Young, Getz, Webster, etc.

[Dr Dave]

Originally Posted by graypencil

Clint hit the nail on the head ..everyone while in their learning stages ( and beyond ) is gonna be "influenced" by people that are dealing something they want to absorb, and as one goes along, these "influences" will after namy years meld into a gestalt that becomes "your" style ..

Having said that, I think the "plagirism" issue arises due to a couple factors:

1. The assembly -line method of most jazz education today that stresses only certain eras at the expense of others ..I've heard clinicians moan for years about all the Trane /Brecker/ Lovano ( these days ) tenor players cranked out by these schools ..all facile, with boocoo chops ..but in many cases totally ignorant of anyone from Stan Getz back thru Pres , Webster, and Hawkins..

2. The death of the big bands, jazz clubs, and hence , the death of the "mentor" system of learning to play jazz by the oral tradition of older guys passing it along to the younger ones, griot style ..plus providing a place where the young players could interact (and eventually play with ,when they got their shit together ) with the seasoned guys.
Today, you gotcher Abersold play alongs, you gotcher transcribed solos to memorize, you gotcher everything but one on one human contact to learn your craft.

end of my rant

Well, that explains something. I guess it's hard to learn to sound like Ben Webster when you don't know who he is.

[graypencil]

Originally Posted by walto

"He who imitates no one is nothing!"

Salvador Dali

along the same lines:

" Only the marginally talented admit to borrowing from the great composers ..the GREAT composers actually blatantly steal from one another! "

Igor Stravinsky

[graypencil]

Originally Posted by clinthopson

Phil, isn't ironic that those three would name their major influences.

Clint:

These kids are like ducks ( but with chops ) ..they wake up to a new world every day ..

to them Trane *is* ancient history ..Pres and Hawk were Neanderthals to them..

" He who doesn't know history is doomed, etc "

[dex68]

Of course, there have been some famous examples of folks who start out copying another player, but then go on to create something really fresh and new. Coltrane himself comes to mind. The story goes (I heard this directly from the mouth of Benny Golson) that he started out as a Johnny Hodges imitator until he and his under age friends snuck in to a club and heard Bird performing. Of course they had never heard anything like it, so Trane disappeared for a few weeks, and reappeared sounding like Bird. I don't know if it's exactly like that, but it's a fun story.

Anyway, the problem is different today because I think so many have lost touch with the creative process - they want some well-established model instead of doing the hard work to find their own way. But rest assured, only the people who say their own thing will really get very far. So no worries. Besides, it's not as if there's a shortage of musicians out there. Those who are really only copycats get weeded out eventually.

[Gary Sisco]

It's true that everyone copies as a learning tool. What else could anyone do, after all (musicians or anyone else -- it's how we learn). And obviously no one is without influence, for the same reason, and also because very likely someone had to be an inspiration for another to even start learning. Those are givens. After that, however, it enters the realm of copying and imitating, if you don't have anything of your own to say and can only parrot.

Influence is not in any way imitation, though, in my book. We don't use the word that way in any other connection. For example, we might say that so and so influenced me to go on and do such and such, but it's the "go on to do" part that is the point.

I also think, though, that the bop schools (jazz education) have added more than their share to the original phenomenon described in this thread, and it's in that realm of jazz in particular where we most often find it in practice. (It's not the only realm and players in other realms aren't necessarily coming up in the same ways. Check our own Nat Catchpole, for instance.) Of the many tenors to have come out of those factories, there are very few who've gone out to develop their own thing after that form of schooling. Chris Potter is one that comes to mind right away, but since no others are, that's kind of my point.

"Writer's workshops" and programs in universities did much the same cookie-cutter kind of thing to short fiction and poetry, if you ask me. That's a different thread but the methodology and the result are much the same. Not everyone has anything to say behind a typewriter, either, regardless of how many schools or workshops they attend.

The point is this: No one can teach you how to have something original to say. They can only help you learn how to say it more effectively if you do. That's all.

Nothing can compare to learning by doing, by playing with other musicians who are better than you are and who push you to be better than you are, if only as you try to keep up.

And, I know it's not fashionable to say, but: Some people can't keep up and won't, because not everyone can. Not even everyone who wants to.

The schools would be a lot more honest than they are if they learned how to just say that.

[Dr Dave]

Amen, Gary!

[dex68]

The whole thing about schools presents an interesting conflict for working players. Many of us rely on teaching for steady income, and yet by so doing we are contributing to a glut of musicians to take less money for gigs than we might. And yet, while most of them may never amount to much, we need the money, and also, as a teacher, we are supposed to be encouraging and positive. It's seems to go against self interest to say, "look, it might be best if you thought about another line of work." It's also against the interest of a school to do so.

An interesting thread might be to explore why so many people want to be jazz musicians when there's absolutly no future in it.

[Doctor Jazz]

Art Taylor has been told he was copying Philly Joe Jones. As a real young kid, I used to do that all the time. I would learn every single lick he did on albums that I had. I memorized so many solos he did and would play along to them. I'm not so much like that anymore, but he has been a major influence on my playing. My style now is a mixture of Connie Kay and Philly Joe Jones. A wierd mix of styles. I try to use Connie's melodic approach with a more heavy feel and imaginative solos. (Connie didn't solo that much)

[Gary Sisco]

dex -- And to use again the writing analogy, lots of writers would be out working day jobs if they didn't teach at universities and do the writers' workshop circuits. Same deal.

Nevertheless, generations of writers managed to write great things without either.

[dex68]

Gary-- True, many writers and musicians have managed without schools, etc. However, most have had very extensive studies. Of course, before the jazz school, so many jazz players started out with a classical background, or they just learned from fellow musicians. Anyway, without people to teach, we have nothing. It's just interesting to me how many jazz studies programs there are around the world when there's no real job at the other end, except teaching. I'm being overly cynical here, obviously. I myself am a working musician who teaches, though less than i should from an economic point of view. But it's a tough line of work.

Is this getting any from the theme of this thread? Oops, sorry!

Do I openly admit to copying other players? Absolutly, but I combine so many bits from so many different players that I think I can get away with it. (My instrument is bass, by the way.) I try not to think too much about who I'm borrowing what from, but if asked to analyse it, I'd say that I try to be rhythmic and swinging, in a Paul Chambers/Ray Brown sort of way. And though he is not my favorite bassist, I have to admit to admiring the aggressiveness of Christian McBride. However, I also like some of vibrato. When I was solely an electric bass guy, I loved Jaco Pastorius, so many a bit of his style has found its way to my upright playing. As I have matured, I've sort of gone from one influence to another as my mental library has expanded.

Well, this is just scratching the surface, but this may help to illustrate the kinds of things players can draw together to build a style. Never have I stuck with only one model. There are many who do, if they have any real talent, they'll usually move on on time.

[Saxman7]

Originally Posted by graypencil

Clint hit the nail on the head ..everyone while in their learning stages ( and beyond ) is gonna be "influenced" by people that are dealing something they want to absorb, and as one goes along, these "influences" will after namy years meld into a gestalt that becomes "your" style ..

Having said that, I think the "plagirism" issue arises due to a couple factors:
1. The assembly -line method of most jazz education today that stresses only certain eras at the expense of others ..I've heard clinicians moan for years about all the Trane /Brecker/ Lovano ( these days ) tenor players cranked out by these schools ..all facile, with boocoo chops ..but in many cases totally ignorant of anyone from Stan Getz back thru Pres , Webster, and Hawkins..

2. The death of the big bands, jazz clubs, and hence , the death of the "mentor" system of learning to play jazz by the oral tradition of older guys passing it along to the younger ones, griot style ..plus providing a place where the young players could interact (and eventually play with ,when they got their shit together ) with the seasoned guys.
Today, you gotcher Abersold play alongs, you gotcher transcribed solos to memorize, you gotcher everything but one on one human contact to learn your craft.
end of my rant

I must say another AMEN to that! I've been amazed at how many young sax players are so limited as to what older players they are even aware of. Don't know who Dex or Pharoah, or Dolpy, Kirk are?

And not having real jam sessions, especially with older, happening cats, is just not replacable by Abersold discs.....

When I first started playing, rather than cop licks & learn them, I'd put on their records, pick up my horn & blow, PRETENDING I WAS THEM....

It was totally my own thing, I just "became" Trane, Stanley, Pharoah, Stan, etc., and played with their "vibe" & feel & "style". Perhaps that's why I've had people tell me I have a very recongizable sound, and if they do compare my playing to someone else, it's all over the place, never just one artist or artists in the same bag.....

And I don't "hate" cats with great chops who sound EXACTLY like someone else, I feel sorry for them, and wonder WHY they would pursue that path......