Is it civil war yet?

[tristano's ghost]

You know, I read about something like The Patriot Pastors or Armando's post on the judicial fight, and I think, "These wingnuts won't stop until they've taken over everything..." They're the freakin' American Taliban. Just about everything I predicted on Nov. 3 is coming true. Not only that, but way too many GOP-leaning "independent" people in the so-called middle are at best grumbling about their party's love of theocratic fascism, but aren't doing anything about it. I'm finding it more and more difficult to talk to conservative friends who simply shrug and say, "Yeah, I can't stand the religious-right stuff... but ya know, taxes/govt. regulation/yada yada yada." (Quite a joke in and of itself--yes, the notorious socialist strangehold on this country's economy and its suffering rich--need to dismantle that right after we get back to teaching that the earth is flat.) It's becoming, more and more, a "Which side are you on?" question afaic. I'm also deeply suspicious that the electoral process is being manipulated in ways that will make any kind of change impossible.

If a blue state were to mount a serious secession effort, I think I'm to the point where I would move there. I can't stand the thought of this country continuing to be taken over by arrogant, self-righteous thugs who confuse God with Mammon, and who remind me of nothing more than Pharisees and fascists. To hell with them... if it's war they want (and it is), I feel ready to give it to them.

Originally Posted by TG

If a blue state were to mount a serious secession effort, I think I'm to the point where I would move there.

Let me know if I can help in any way. I'll do whatever I can whether it be physical and/or financial. If it does happen, PM me and I'll send you my phone number so we can get things coordinated.

The math may seem a little off, but one less angst ridden, woe is me liberla here will automatically make this country 100x better.

And although I am agnostic, I'm very thankful for the religious right. They scare the shit out of you whining pussies, which I think is absolutely hilarious. The paranoia and hypochondria that fills your pitiful existence is truly a marvel.

[Captain Hate]

Your first mistake is going to the land of total idiocy called the Daily Kos.

[sonic1]

I am not panicked about the state of the union, because I think the GOP and chronies are digging their own grave, and proving their own disfunction; though somehow, some way, it will be the democrats fault.

[tristano's ghost]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

Let me know if I can help in any way. I'll do whatever I can whether it be physical and/or financial. If it does happen, PM me and I'll send you my phone number so we can get things coordinated.

The math may seem a little off, but one less angst ridden, woe is me liberla here will automatically make this country 100x better.

And although I am agnostic, I'm very thankful for the religious right. They scare the shit out of you whining pussies, which I think is absolutely hilarious. The paranoia and hypochondria that fills your pitiful existence is truly a marvel.

Geez, I had just gotten done reading this scintillating piece of prose when the whole board seemed to break... musta been a toxic reaction. It's up to what--9,000 plus droppings from Mr. D? Glad to know they let you out to post.

Also glad you think the country's being taken over by fundamentalist gangsters is a laughing matter. Folks, you mighta heard of the walkin' ass... you mighta even heard of the talkin' ass... But what we got here is a real-life POSTIN' ass!!

But if you can help with that secession matter, much appreciated. Just give your chickenhawk wingnut pals in power a call and tell 'em to let a blue state or two go... I'd be grateful, yes indeedy.

[sonic1]

um...chickenhawk is not quite the right word.

[tristano's ghost]

Originally Posted by Captain Hate

Your first mistake is going to the land of total idiocy called the Daily Kos.

Naw, that's anywhere that SD chooses to post.

Kos at least wore the uniform and fought in a war--more than I can say for 95% of the chickenhawks in the current administration and Congress.

[tristano's ghost]

Originally Posted by sonic1

um...chickenhawk is not quite the right word.

Too mild? I'm referring to Bush, Cheney, and crew... what term might be better?

[sonic1]

Hawk, TG, Hawk!!

A chickenhawk is an older fellow who likes the young boys, though one might apply that here too.

[tristano's ghost]

Originally Posted by sonic1

Hawk, TG, Hawk!!

A chickenhawk is an older fellow who likes the young boys, though one might apply that here too.

Well, it's made its way into comtemporary discourse as a term for those who rabidly advocate military action/intervention... but who were conspicuous in their efforts to avoid service when they themselves were presented with the call of duty. See George W. "fightin' off the Vietcong over the Gulf of Mexico" Bush (this despite his stated support for the war), Dick "got me five draft deferments" Cheney... Ya know, I think this beaut of a guy Bolton did the same thing when given the opportunity to go fight in a war that he supported.

Maybe that's why W. isn't out pounding the podium for new enlistments.

[sonic1]

Not that my mind has common-usage of words down, but I always thought Hawk was the word.

Well, I am not paranoid, but I think things are fucked up. Scottie calls anyone paranoid who might suggest things are shitty. It makes him feel tough.

I miss it when the radical religious were off to the side and the fiscal conservatives ran things. I didn't agree with them on a lot of things, but those days seem like heaven compared to now.

FWIW not all republicans make excuses. My brother, who served in Iraq and Afghanistan, as well as throughout the other hemisphere for 10 years, and was a life-republican voted against Bush this year, and makes no excuses for the idiots in his party. But he is a northerner. Maybe Northerner fiscal conservatives count as liberlas these days.

Originally Posted by TG

But if you can help with that secession matter, much appreciated.

Just let me know what I can do.

And yes, I'm completely serious.

[tristano's ghost]

Gary Sisco's called it elsewhere on this board:

The answer of course is that they are neither republicans nor federalists nor even antifederalists.

What they are is an American homegrown breed of fascist, whether conscious or not, matters not, since fascism is a behavior, not an ideology. It has no principles. It has only hatreds and the desire for the power to control others, absolutely.

If that's conservatism, it's time for another civil war, and the sooner the better.

[sonic1]

Originally Posted by tristano's ghost

Gary Sisco's called it elsewhere on this board:

The answer of course is that they are neither republicans nor federalists nor even antifederalists.

What they are is an American homegrown breed of fascist, whether conscious or not, matters not, since fascism is a behavior, not an ideology. It has no principles. It has only hatreds and the desire for the power to control others, absolutely.

This is totally right on. I wouldn't want to start civil war, or participate in it for that matter, since there must be options before bringing out the big guns. But history will prove this to be spot-on.

[tristano's ghost]

Well, I'm hoping for the peaceful option... gotta try that first. Just need SD & co. to call in their chips w/the GOP powers-that-be--otherwise they'll be dropping cluster-bombs on Burlington.

[Captain Hate]

The word "fascist" gets used more loosely on this bbs than the word "fuck"; if there was any truth to it everybody posting it would be incarcerated. If you want to see true intolerance, go over to Daily Kos and post that you think the war on terrorism was the right thing to do.

[tristano's ghost]

Originally Posted by Captain Hate

The word "fascist" gets used more loosely on this bbs than the word "fuck"; if there was any truth to it everybody posting it would be incarcerated. If you want to see true intolerance, go over to Daily Kos and post that you think the war on terrorism was the right thing to do.

Define, please, "the war on terrorism." If you're including Afghanistan, I'm on board with ya... if you're including Iraq, sorry, I'm getting off that trainwreck. We TURNED Iraq into part of "the war on terrorism."

As for true intolerance, I did indeed find it... last year, on Free Republic. Banned within two minutes. But I'm not talking about Internet bulletin boards.

[sonic1]

Originally Posted by Captain Hate

The word "fascist" gets used more loosely on this bbs than the word "fuck"; if there was any truth to it everybody posting it would be incarcerated. If you want to see true intolerance, go over to Daily Kos and post that you think the war on terrorism was the right thing to do.

I think Gary was quite clear in his definition. The thing that defines fascism for me was not the idealism, but the intent behind the idealism.

The religious superiority, racial superiority, nationalism, the zealous struggle for power-at the cost of the democracy in which they function, the hatred of vast groups of people, all stinks of fascism to me. I could go on...

[tristano's ghost]

>>Fourteen Defining
Characteristics Of Fascism
By Dr. Lawrence Britt
Source Free Inquiry.co
5-28-3


Dr. Lawrence Britt has examined the fascist regimes of Hitler (Germany), Mussolini (Italy), Franco (Spain), Suharto (Indonesia) and several Latin American regimes. Britt found 14 defining characteristics common to each:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism - Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights - Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause - The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread
domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

5. Rampant Sexism - The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Divorce, abortion and homosexuality are suppressed and the state is represented as the ultimate guardian of the family institution.

6. Controlled Mass Media - Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

7. Obsession with National Security - Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

8. Religion and Government are Intertwined - Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

9. Corporate Power is Protected - The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed - Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts - Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts and letters is openly attacked.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment - Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption - Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

14. Fraudulent Elections - Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

From Liberty Forum <<

When it comes to freedom, I'd rather err on the side of caution.

[sonic1]

We have moved closer to almost all those criteria in the past 5 years.

[Captain Hate]

Originally Posted by sonic1

I think Gary was quite clear in his definition. The thing that defines fascism for me was not the idealism, but the intent behind the idealism.

Well then let Gary speak for himself. When you use words loosely you devalue their meaning. That's part of the fucking trouble that nobody knows a goddam thing about what they're talking about because terms are used indiscriminately according to how somebody feeeeeeels about something. I love it when people with unbridled freedom compare their lot in life to something that is completely foreign to their experiences. Well fuck that; as usual it's a huge waste of time posting on the suck forum.

[tristano's ghost]

Originally Posted by Captain Hate

I love it when people with unbridled freedom compare their lot in life to something that is completely foreign to their experiences.

I want it to REMAIN foreign to my experience. It doesn't generally happen overnight... we're in the early-to-middle stages of "fascism creep."

Keep whistlin' past the graveyard, ay?

[crawjo]

Tristano,

I think I understand what you are saying, but my sincere recommendation is that you need to relax a little bit. By that I don't mean pretend that what is happening is not happening, but rather temper your anger and moderate your passion. Nothing is served by advocating violence or calling for civil war. That is exactly the kind of reaction the culture warriors on the right want. They have the numbers, and they have the feeling of invincibility which their messianic interpretation of Christianity affords them.

As Jared suggested, let them dig their own grave. The time is not far off until the next election, and our current president is not a popular one. In the long run, liberalism will be stronger for having suffered through this ordeal.

[Jesse]

arm The Homeless!

[walto]

Who is Dr. Lawrence Britt?

[walto]

Yeah, but who is he? (I mean, if I give 7 essential characteristics of fascism, they'll be provided by Dr. Walter Horn--so what? WTHDIK?)

[sonic1]

I don't know who he is but those characteristics are pretty self evident. I mean, unless you are going to argue that they are poor definers? By all means...

[sonic1]

Originally Posted by Captain Hate

Well then let Gary speak for himself. When you use words loosely you devalue their meaning. That's part of the fucking trouble that nobody knows a goddam thing about what they're talking about because terms are used indiscriminately according to how somebody feeeeeeels about something. I love it when people with unbridled freedom compare their lot in life to something that is completely foreign to their experiences. Well fuck that; as usual it's a huge waste of time posting on the suck forum.

I understand this sentiment CH. Still this comparison to fascism has a point. Radical leftism aside, there is some pretty scary shit going on. And remember, Germany was not always the freaky state it became in WWII. Just because we are so free now does not mean we cannot lose that freedom.

[frankiepop]

the republicans are playing hardball. they want a vote on some judges. the democrats failed to give me sufficient reasons to worry about these few judges.

i can't see why the dem's are using their little political capital here. it's the same with John Bolton's Nomination Battle. he seems crabby and an old fart, so what?

the democrats ought to gear their fights for the next election or the next, judge clarence thomas type nominee, for supreme court of the united states. another conservative there could spell disaster for roe v wade and many more civil liberties.

the republicans won the senate and the presidency rather decisively. the democrats lost. this is the republicans day, let them have it here.

[Brian Olewnick]

Fascism was an Italian political movement whose salient characteristic (later adopted by the Nationalist Socialists in Germany) was an economic one: allowing the nominal retention of private ownership of production but mandating all major aspects of it including levels of production, wages, prices, etc.

All the characteristics outlined by "Dr. Britt" above are hardly exclusive to any particular system; indeed, I daresay most of them are part and parcel of any political system.