Beyond Bad

[Gary Sisco]

This is beyond bad and into real evil. Even my jaded brain I thought was beyond amazement can't process this information without my blood pressure rocketing past the red zone.

Slain Soldier's Mom Rejected by Gold Star
By JIM FITZGERALD, Associated Press Writer 45 minutes ago

Everyone agrees that Ligaya Lagman is a Gold Star mother, part of the long line of mournful women whose sons or daughters gave their lives for their country. Her 27-year-old son, Army Staff Sgt. Anthony Lagman, was killed last year in Afghanistan, but American Gold Star Mothers Inc., has rejected Lagman, a Filipino, for membership because — though a permanent resident and a taxpayer — she is not a U.S. citizen.

"There's nothing we can do because that's what our organization says: You have to be an American citizen," national President Ann Herd said Thursday. "We can't go changing the rules every time the wind blows."

That explanation isn't satisfying the war veterans who sponsored Lagman's application, some other members of the mothers' group or several members of Congress.

"It is disheartening that any mother of a soldier, sailor, airman or Marine who has died in the line of duty would be denied membership in an organization that honors the memory of fallen service men and women," said Rep. Nita Lowey (news, bio, voting record), whose district includes Lagman's home in Yonkers.

Rep. Eliot Engel (news, bio, voting record), who represents an adjoining district, said the group should change its rules immediately.

"Whatever the excuse, American Gold Star Mothers' decision smacks of xenophobia and is in stark contrast to what Mrs. Lagman's son fought and died for," Engel said.

Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton said, "We now have many noncitizens serving honorably in our armed services, and I hope that this can be satisfactorily resolved."

A past president of the mothers' group, Dorothy Oxendine, of Farmingdale, said, "There's no discrimination in a national cemetery. There's no discrimination when they get killed side by side. So how can we discriminate against a mother?"

Another past president, Ann Wolcott, of York, Pa., said, "Times have changed since this organization was started, and there are a lot of men and women serving today whose parents are not citizens. I think they deserve every honor and privilege that we have as Gold Star mothers."

Oxendine and Wolcott said they believe that given the increasing diversity of the armed forces there have been noncitizens in the 1,200-member organization who overlooked or ignored the citizenship question on the application.

Lagman has lived in the United States for more than 20 years. She was not at home Thursday, apparently tending to her husband, who is hospitalized. But her other son, Chris Lagman, said in Thursday's The Journal News that all she wants "is recognition as the mother of this fallen soldier."

Lagman's application was initiated by Ben Spadaro, a veteran from Yonkers, who said he learned about the citizenship rules of the American Gold Star Mothers while working on a national cemetery committee of the Veterans Administration. When he learned of Anthony Lagman's death and saw Lagman was a citizen but his mother was not, he thought, "He's buried in a military cemetery, with full honors. She should be able to join."

"We decided to tell the absolute truth on the application," he said. "We put down, `I am not an American citizen.' It was a ploy to get them to reject her, and then we said they should change the rules."

But the organization's 12-member executive board voted against any change.

"We can't go changing the rules every time we turn around," said Herd, the national president. "When we have problems within our organization with people not abiding by the rules, we just get it straightened out, we don't change the rules."

Oxendine, the former president, said she is sure the general membership would approve a rules change if the board did.

"I can't believe that 12 intelligent women would ever not have it in their hearts to think about another Gold Star mother," Oxendine said. "You pay a high price to join the American Gold Star Mothers. I figure her dues were paid."

Spadaro isn't giving up. He had his brother, a Florida lawyer, write to the Department of Justice, noting the mothers' organization has received federal assistance and demanding an investigation.

And on Monday, during Memorial Day observances at Veterans of Foreign Wars Post 2285 in Eastchester, Lagman will be presented with a gold necklace bearing a simple gold star.

[cookie]

That's so incredibly petty and lame. Her SON was a citizen and served US. How could they even CONSIDER not recognizing her? And they won't consider a rule change to correct an obvious problem? How arrogant.

I don't understand why the nationality of a mother should count at all. If a woman's child dies in service to us, why would they care where she's from, where she resides, or what her citizenship is? The whole point is to recognize the sacrifice of women who give up their "babies" to our service only to have them returned in a box. Her baby served our country and made the ultimate sacrifice. Giving her a gold star won't stop her pain, but refusing her one surely must cause a little bit more on top of everthing.

Makes me pretty mad, too, Gary. What a lame organization. I hope somebody bitch slaps someone or somethin'...

[Gary Sisco]

They should be publicly flogged with large, hard, sharp, vinyl "Support Our Troops" magnets, on global television, for several hours, each.

And then punished somehow.

[Sergio Zamora]

From their website

American Gold Star Mothers was incorporated in Washington, DC and granted
a Federal Charter by the ninety-eighth Congress. That was in 1929, and in the years
since, through times of war and times of peace, this organization of American mothers
has changed, grown, and always been there when needed.

This is a stupid question, but what does it mean to be federally chartered?

[Darryl G. Thomas]

Sergio,

Good question. I'd bet it had something to do with being recognized as some type of tax-exempt organization or maybe licensed to honor the dead.

I believe there have been members of the military that I have died in Afghanistan/Iraq who've been granted citizenship posthumously, am I correct?

I hate crap like this. Reminds me of Catch 22 or something.

[al j]

Originally Posted by The AP

"We decided to tell the absolute truth on the application," he said. "We put down, `I am not an American citizen.' It was a ploy to get them to reject her, and then we said they should change the rules."

Sounds like they were trolling.

[clinthopson]

More idiocy everywhere we turn.

Originally Posted by Joe Christmas

Sounds like they were trolling.

Ya think?

Look, this is a private organization. They make their own rules. Play by 'em, or fuck off.

Sounds simple enough for me.






Next!

[Vince Kargatis]

Originally Posted by Sergio Zamora

This is a stupid question, but what does it mean to be federally chartered?

from a google link CRS Report for Congress

In April 1992, subcommittee chairman, Barney Frank, announced that the Subcommittee on Administrative Law and Government Relations would no longer consider requests for charters . The reason, Frank said, was that the charters were "a nuisance", a meaningless act; granting charters implied that Congress was exercising some sort of supervision over the groups and it was not. "When I first raised the issue, 'What is a federal charter?' The answer was, a federal charter is a federal charter is a federal charter.... You could make up an organization for the preservation of Albert DeSalvo, the Boston Strangler . We'd have no way of checking into it."

[Gary Sisco]

The vets' organizations will get so far on to their case, they'll never know what hit them, thankfully, though it will never remove the taste of racist xenophobia from that mother's mouth.

[Sergio Zamora]

Thanks for the research, Vince. It sounds like a pretty meaningless thing. I guess unless they're getting tax exemption or some similar benefit, federal anti-discrimnation and civil rights laws don't apply. Not that I know if they would apply in this circumstance (discrimination against non-citizens) anyway.

Originally Posted by Gary Sisco

The vets' organizations will get so far on to their case, they'll never know what hit them, thankfully, though it will never remove the taste of racist xenophobia from that mother's mouth.

Oh jesus christ already, Gary.......

So the next time I'm filling out a form that asks my race I should say American? Who fucking knew?

Once again, it's a private organization. If I were on the board, I'd vote to let the lady have her star and join the club. But I'm not on the board. As unfortunate a mindset as it is, they have every right to make and keep their rules as they see fit. It's kinda like those country clubs that won't let black folk in. They are closed minded imbeciles, but they have the right to be.

[ormsbop]

It's not like it's that difficult for PRs to become US citizens. It took my wife only about [three years*] once she decided. (She's much happier since citizens get the nice perk of voting rights too!). Mileage may vary but I'd bet for the amount of time and effort the PC folks invest to try to change their rules, she could have easily become a citizen and joined, no questions asked.






On the other hand this is an incredibly evil vicious SEXIST organization discriminating against single fathers!

*Edit- originally said 1 year. okay my memory is obviously failing.

Very nice post, Ormsbop!

[Gary Sisco]

The point is the racism and I am disgusted, morally and politically, with the casualness of the commentary, not only on the bbs but everywhere, so far, I've raised this issue, *outside vet circles.*

People simply don't know the violence of the emotions something like this brings up, or what they are unconsciously (I hope) toying with. Hope that you never find out, personally, is all I can say, because otherwise, when you do, you're in for some hellish surprise.

Well, someday they will, because there does come a reckoning as to what's "meaningless" and what's not. What goes around comes around, and no one violates that law.

PC folks, indeed. Fucking guy was a Marine, not a hippy. Fucking woman lost her son, not an idle debating society Sunday morning cupcake party.

Sometimes even I am still surprised by the essential nihilism of the present period. The real truth of this society is that, with only very rare exceptions, the only people who believe anything are the worst the society coughs up. The rest, including many or even most of the best, seem to slip through their own lives sans passion or commitment or even conviction to anything outside their strictly personal affairs.

Every day it becomes increasingly a society (if indeed it is even is one) that isn't worth defending; and given the recruitment numbers, it's clear that I am far from alone in my thinking. And perhaps, in the end, that's the mother's real tragedy. Losing her son for nothing at all.

Ah, fuck it. It's all a waste of breath.

I don't belong in this place anymore than I belong anywhere else in this market posing as a society.

"Here come the planes
our planes
made in America...."

Originally Posted by Gary Sisco

The point is the racism and I am disgusted, morally and politically, with the casualness of the commentary, not only on the bbs but everywhere, so far, I've raised this issue, *outside vet circles.*

People simply don't know the violence of the emotions something like this brings up, or what they are unconsciously (I hope) toying with. Hope that you never find out, personally, is all I can say, because otherwise, when you do, you're in for some hellish surprise.

Well, someday they will, because there does come a reckoning as to what's "meaningless" and what's not. What goes around comes around, and no one violates that law.

PC folks, indeed. Fucking guy was a Marine, not a hippy. Fucking woman lost her son, not an idle debating society Sunday morning cupcake party.

Sometimes even I am still surprised by the essential nihilism of the present period. The real truth of this society is that, with only very rare exceptions, the only people who believe anything are the worst the society coughs up. The rest, including many or even most of the best, seem to slip through their own lives sans passion or commitment or even conviction to anything outside their strictly personal affairs.

Every day it becomes increasingly a society (if indeed it is even is one) that isn't worth defending; and given the recruitment numbers, it's clear that I am far from alone in my thinking. And perhaps, in the end, that's the mother's real tragedy. Losing her son for nothing at all.

Ah, fuck it. It's all a waste of breath.

I don't belong in this place anymore than I belong anywhere else in this market posing as a society.

"Here come the planes
our planes
made in America...."

time for a look at your dosage.

[ormsbop]

Originally Posted by Gary Sisco

I am disgusted, morally and politically, with the casualness of the commentary

Perhaps "the chickens are coming home to roost"?

[Gary Sisco]

They are, don't worry about it. And it will be deserved when they roost again, far's I'm concerned.

This society's people don't seem to understand how they play with very powerful and violent emotions, because most of them don't share their origins and can't imagine them, given the lives they've led. Or rather, the lives they've been allowed to lead, because the kind of hobbiton the US has become can only exist because of a fucking lot of blood. Whether they are conscious of this or not changes nothing.

I've been referring lately often to the excellent book *Generation Kill.* In it, after the most forward of all Marines or any US troops at all of any kind, rotated back to Camp Pendleton, one of them got invited to a Malibu ****tail party where a bunch of yuppies wanted to honor a "war hero." The Marine, who'd killed several civilians himself for failing to stop at road blocks, even after warning shots were fired, and who'd witnessed the destruction of many towns and cities, along with large numbers of their population, finally, after a few drinks and patriotic toasts to the hero, the Marine stood up and announced:

"I'm not a hero. I'm a psycho. People like you who live the kind of life you're accustomed to require psychos like me to drop bombs on other people's houses."

In short, he delivered the straight-up truth, and just as of course, offended everyone in the place. But he offended them with the truth they try very hard not to think about in their lives.

Americans do in fact require the services of psychos who are willing to kill and destroy whatever they are told to kill and destroy. Their entire way of life depends on those guys or other guys just like them. Whether they want to live with this as a conscious fact of that life is irrelevant because they do require those services, nevertheless, faced up to or no.

Which is why another Marine in the same unit, a corpsman (medic), just flatly declares that it doesn't matter if one is antiwar or prowar. Those are thoughts and opinions. The war is on and always has been since WW2, somewhere.

But pro or antiwar, it matters not, their lives and their ability to live them in the style to which they are accustomed, and very especially, moreso than economics, in the psychological bubble they self-impose by refusing to look reality in the face and deal with it, does in fact, whatever they think (including not thinking at all, which is another decision, not a biological handicap), depend on an ocean of bloodshed and the people who are willing to spill both it and their own.

This is the case for all, prowar or antiwar. It has been the case for several generations and it will continue to be the case in future. One's views do not alter the reality of empire.

No psycho Marines, no nice house and cush life in Malibu or Anywhere Else, USA.

Truth straight up.

Originally Posted by Psycho Sisco

The point is the racism

What racism? American is NOT a race.

I've been referring lately often to the excellent book *Generation Kill.*

The absolute truth, fully endorsed by the Siscoian Highminded Institute of Truth, is found within.

"I'm not a hero. I'm a psycho. People like you who live the kind of life you're accustomed to require psychos like me to drop bombs on other people's houses."

How dramatic.

[crawjo]

Gary,

I humbly suggest you follow the advice of Satchel Paige:

"If your stomach disputes you, pacify it with cool thoughts."

[Brian Olewnick]

I believe I heard on the radio in the car yesterday that the medal has been awarded.

[al j]

Like Gary, I think the immediate actions of these people are deplorable. How people can be so cold is beyond me. I'm glad to see it resolved, if Brian heard what he did.

This certainly had nothing to do with the military itself, but backwoods civilian types who think they can control issues by proxy. In the retail places on bases, where management knows that they are never going to go out of business, customer service people can be particularly dimwitted and passive.

You'd never have heard of this issue if it was a military association, run by the military. Or if it were vets.

[Chaz Longue]

[QUOTE=Scott Dolan]Oh jesus christ already, Gary.......

So the next time I'm filling out a form that asks my race I should say American? Who fucking knew?

Once again, it's a private organization. If I were on the board, I'd vote to let the lady have her star and join the club. But I'm not on the board. As unfortunate a mindset as it is, they have every right to make and keep their rules as they see fit. It's kinda like those country clubs that won't let black folk in. They are closed minded imbeciles, but they have the right to be.[/QUOTE





Dolan - Either you DELIBERATELY pretend to misunderstand people's posts so you can make a limp attempt at humour - OR you're pretending to be as dumb as a bag-o-hammers.

Either way, you're about as funny as Buddy Hacket practicing schtick at a wake.

Spare us.

Where is the racism?

[Chaz Longue]

Which do you want us to believe, Scott - you're dumber than snot? or you're CONSTANTLY unable to misunderstand people's posts.

I'm not convinced of either.

My opinion? You're intentionally "misunderstanding" in order to provoke.

It's a waste of your intelligence - and it's fucking annoying.

I'm afraid I'm still wondering why you want to spend SO much energy annoying people. If memory serves, you were recently waging a charm offensive and trying to convince people you weren't a pain in the ass... Even though it's different issues - why WORK so hard - at pissing people off?

Call me a fool, but this perplexes me.

Chaz, normally you aren't like this, so I'll just chalk it up to some kind of bizarre misunderstanding. Gary referred to this as being a case of racism twice. Am I reading both of those posts incorrectly? If I am, then I beg your pardon. Why not get off my ass and point out where I'm wrong instead of sitting there telling me how dumb I'm acting.

And besides, I love to tweak the shit out of anybody who is as humorless and full of themselves as Gary. Doesn't make me a bad person, nor does it mean I think that he is a bad person.

On the contrary, I think he's likely a pretty good chap. But his holier-than-thou attitude brings out the pest in me. People like that can't stand to be tweaked by people they consider inferior.

But, as for the racism comments, yes, I'm being serious. As I said, it seems quite obvious to you that I'm completely missing the meaning of the comments, but if you'd be willing to enlighten, I'd be most appreciative.

[Darryl G. Thomas]

The mother was Asian.

I interpret Gary's comments to mean he feels if the mother was a white European ( I say white because all Europeans aren't white these days) citizen the group wouldn't have objected to the woman getting the medal in the first place.

To be honest, my first thought was the woman was being rejected because she was Asian. I am not saying that the group would reject all non-white mothers, that would be kind of hard to do in today's military. I just felt the citizenship thing was a dodge.

I may be totally out ofline. But I'm in my 49th year and I remember when America wasn't as color-blind as it is today.

[Brian Olewnick]

She's a filipina which you'd think might carry some weight given the contributions of the Philippine military in WWII. Bataan, anyone?

Contrary to my post above, I heard yesterday that she's withdrawn her request; the impression I got was that she's no longer interested in the award given the circumstances.