Jazz Bassist Arrested

kdd · June-1st-2005, 02:29 AM

Tarik Shah who I heard with Betty Carter years ago and some others I don't recall seems to be to other things today or maybe not...
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/30/nyregion/30sting.html
and the follow up
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/05/31/ny...1suspects.html

dex68 · June-1st-2005, 10:11 AM

I saw this, too. The thing I can't understand is how is it possible to be a musician (and apparently an accomplished one) and sympathize with "fundamentalist" Islam (in quotes, since fundamentally, Islam is about peace and compassion for others, not blowing up innocent people), which forbids all music and dance? (This is why an al Qaeda cell is believed to have blown up a Suffi mosque in Pakastan, because Suffis love music) Would he rather live in a theocracy where his own profession would be considered sinful? I can't quite believe that someone could put in the work it takes to be a working jazz bassist just for a "cover". Must be a misunderstanding, at best. Something is wrong here.

Darryl G. Thomas · June-1st-2005, 10:19 AM

Maybe some consider religious/political beliefs to be more important than music? When you get right down to it the arts are just entertainment.

hearsay · June-1st-2005, 10:24 AM

I don't think he was still an active musician.

groover · June-1st-2005, 10:30 AM

While many jazz musicians are Muslim, they obviously aren't fundamentalists. I agree, it's extremely unlikely that anyone would put in the effort to become a competent musician purely as a cover, while holding allegiance to a form of faith which disdains all music. I suspect this fellow went through a personal transformation after 9/11. His last recording date was May 1999 with Irene Reid.

Enforcer · June-1st-2005, 10:31 AM

This is also being discussed in another thread.

hearsay · June-1st-2005, 10:42 AM

Be honest Larry, you just wanted us to see your one liners.

Uli · June-1st-2005, 10:49 AM

Since he is a jazz musician it may seem completely appropriate to convict him here.

Noj · June-1st-2005, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kdd

Tarik Shaw

This turd is a Shah, not a Shaw. I'm a Shaw.

Enforcer · June-1st-2005, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hearsay

Be honest Larry, you just wanted us to see your one liners.

I don't like being honest, hearsay.

Avoiding things he's not comfortable with,
Larry

Dr Dave · June-1st-2005, 12:00 PM

I"m sorry, I don't believe the Feds. This sounds like somebody needed to make a headline.

Paul B · June-1st-2005, 12:09 PM

Why? Because the guy was once a jazz musician? The Times piece says the Feds caught him on tape several times, making incriminating statements and vowing fealty to al-Quaeda. "He wouldn't be here if he wasn't a Muslim," says his lawyer. Gee, no kidding. It wasn't Quaker terrorists who blew up the WTC.

That said, it's true the Feds have made plenty of mistakes...so I guess we'll wait and see.

Bye-ya

Noj · June-1st-2005, 12:10 PM

So maybe I was a little heavy-handed with the whole "turd" thing...?

The Feds have made it very difficult to believe anything they say, so maybe Dave's right.

groover · June-1st-2005, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul B

The Times piece says the Feds caught him on tape several times, making incriminating statements and vowing fealty to al-Quaeda. "He wouldn't be here if he wasn't a Muslim," says his lawyer.

Yes, but it was probably his copy of Pete La Roca's Basra that clinched it for them.

dex68 · June-1st-2005, 03:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul B

Why? Because the guy was once a jazz musician? The Times piece says the Feds caught him on tape several times, making incriminating statements and vowing fealty to al-Quaeda. "He wouldn't be here if he wasn't a Muslim," says his lawyer. Gee, no kidding. It wasn't Quaker terrorists who blew up the WTC.

That said, it's true the Feds have made plenty of mistakes...so I guess we'll wait and see.

Bye-ya

It's not yet illegal to be a muslim. Anyway, we have no idea about what kind of statements he made. Just because fed say so doesn't make it so.

Paul B · June-1st-2005, 04:07 PM

True. The governement has made many errors in its mostly-misguided "war" on terrorism. Still, it's ludicrous for Muslims to assume that some amount of "profiling" isn't in order--or, to put it differently, that the governement (and, one hopes, concerned citizens) wouldn't be watching them more closely than Quakers or Zen Buddhists--given that practitioners of Islam are so outspoken in their animosity towards democracy, and the West in general.

Bye-ya

kdd · June-1st-2005, 04:09 PM

Seems a little suspect to me. It looks like the informant and FBI plant arranged everything and egged them on. He's guilty at least of talking too much and allowing himself to be egged on by these guys who are clearly trying to gather evidence and build a case out of nothing against him. If they had left him alone he would have never done anything. There are more stories coming out than the links I provided and most of them state he never followed through on anything and they bought him to a potential site for the "school" and he complained it was to far for him to travel every day. Not the most dedicated militant. Also it took them two years to gather this much evidence? Pretty flimsy. Also he still active a bassist, maybe just not in many high profile gigs lately.

Al in NYC · June-1st-2005, 07:57 PM

From the NY Times story:

Quote:

While the authorities said that they had no evidence that either man had actually provided support to terrorists, they said they had taped each man swearing his allegiance to Osama bin Laden

So, do they have any evidence that this guy did anything other than SAY a bunch of dumb BS? Why is that a crime? He sure wouldn't be the first down on his luck musician I've ever met to spin some tall tales and do some bigtime bragging that he obviously can't back up. Stupid, yes, criminal, no.

Since the feds can't seem to find any real terrorists, and screwed up so badly dealing with the ones who were actually here, it seems that they're now out chasing their own tails around coming up with some dumbass stings to take rather pitiful disaffected people and try somehow to turn them into terrorists -- just so that they can (at last) claim to have caught some.

Monte Smith · June-1st-2005, 10:01 PM

This is a sting operation and not a nabbing of actual terrorists. I'm glad these dorks have trouble ahead of them, but we shouldn't think that this is a big haul. This isn't even the most impressive of several stings that have gone down since 9/11. I bet these guys are just anti-american jackasses who wished they could practice jihad. When some cunning feds came along and appeared to give them a chance, they jumped at it. Retards. However, don't get me wrong, they should be shot--in the kneecaps, at least. And stings are a good thing: no possible terrorist should ever be convinced that he is not being stung or surveiled.

dex68 · June-2nd-2005, 04:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monte Smith

I bet these guys are just anti-american jackasses who wished they could practice jihad.

We have absolutely no way to know this. Trying to characterise Shah's views based on your own possible distain for his religion only serves to alienate other muslims. How can we possibly benefit from that? Only a tiny portion of muslims support groups like al Qaeda. Anyway, in an article I read, musicians who know him said there was no way he could be involved in this type of thing. Let's not shoot out his knees just yet.
What we do know, however, is that Bush & Co. are totally clueless as to how to really deal with radical Islamic fundamentalism (or radical Christian fundamentalism in the US, for that matter - terrorism against family-planning clinics, for example). All they know how to do is feed the flames. This may yet be another example.

June-2nd-2005, 07:26 AM

As far as I'm concerned he can play his horn in his jail cell as long as Allah lives. Let's move on to serious discussions.

Monte Smith · June-2nd-2005, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dex68

What we do know, however, is that Bush & Co. are totally clueless as to how to really deal with...terrorism against family-planning clinics, for example....

Do we indeed know that Bush & Co. are totally clueless as to how to deal with a phenomenon, terrorism against family-planning clinics, which has not existed to any degree in the past decade and of which there have been no particular examples to deal with under Bush & Co.'s watch?

Clay Fink · June-2nd-2005, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Al in NYC

From the NY Times story:

So, do they have any evidence that this guy did anything other than SAY a bunch of dumb BS? Why is that a crime? He sure wouldn't be the first down on his luck musician I've ever met to spin some tall tales and do some bigtime bragging that he obviously can't back up. Stupid, yes, criminal, no.

Since the feds can't seem to find any real terrorists, and screwed up so badly dealing with the ones who were actually here, it seems that they're now out chasing their own tails around coming up with some dumbass stings to take rather pitiful disaffected people and try somehow to turn them into terrorists -- just so that they can (at last) claim to have caught some.

I think you nailed it...

Clay Fink · June-2nd-2005, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monte Smith

Do we indeed know that Bush & Co. are totally clueless as to how to deal with a phenomenon, terrorism against family-planning clinics, which has not existed to any degree in the past decade and of which there have been no particular examples to deal with under Bush & Co.'s watch?

Depends on what you call "terrorism" regarding family-planning clinics. Vandalism and other forms of intimidation are not uncommon. We got a flyer recently from our local PP showing a video of a guy injecting glue into the lock of the front door of a local clinic. This isn't terrorism, but it's not peacful, civil disobediance. Such property crimes by enviromental "monkey wrenchers" seem to be more likely labeled "terrorism".

Monte Smith · June-2nd-2005, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clay Fink

Depends on what you call "terrorism" regarding family-planning clinics.

I guess you're absolutely right, Clay. Bombings, murders, that's what I tend to think of as terrorism. Maybe I'm way off the mark there.

Darryl G. Thomas · June-2nd-2005, 01:41 PM

Do these guys get a trial or are they sent off to Gitmo?

Al kind of speaks for me. I guess conspiracy's a crime because that's what they were charged with, but if the same standard of conspiracy is held out for everyone half of Idaho would be in jail.

dex68 · June-3rd-2005, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Monte Smith

Do we indeed know that Bush & Co. are totally clueless as to how to deal with a phenomenon, terrorism against family-planning clinics, which has not existed to any degree in the past decade and of which there have been no particular examples to deal with under Bush & Co.'s watch?

Maybe I shouldn't have brought Christian fundamentalism into this, since it's a bit off the subject, but the point really is the plain fact that we cannot trust this administration. And also, that this bassist needs to be treated fairly by our justice system (or maybe it's a "just-us" system), and I am not at all convinced that this will happen, are you? Remember that there have been no convictions for anyone in connection to 911 (To my recollection at least). Now, we all know that when a high profile crime happens, there need to be arrests. Point being that there is all kinds of pressure on the government to be seen by the public as doing something to keep us safe, and now, with all the anti-terror laws, they don't even have charge these guys. How wonderful for them.

Monte Smith · June-3rd-2005, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dex68

Maybe I shouldn't have brought Christian fundamentalism into this, since it's a bit off the subject, but the point really is the plain fact that we cannot trust this administration.

What you shouldn't have brought up is the Bush admin's supposedly incompetent dealings with anti-abortion terrorism, because there have been no acts of such terror on Bush & Co.'s watch. The last such act that I recall was committed by Eric Rudolph during the Clinton administration. He was arrested in 2003 and successfully prosecuted.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dex68

And also, that this bassist needs to be treated fairly by our justice system (or maybe it's a "just-us" system), and I am not at all convinced that this will happen, are you?

I'm confident they'll have their day in court. They've been stung by the FBI; I betcha the Feds bothered to document that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dex68

Remember that there have been no convictions for anyone in connection to 911 (To my recollection at least).

Zacarias Moussaoui plead guilty at the Rocket Docket in Northern Virginia last April. He is the only person in the United States to have been charged in connection with the September 11 attacks. Khalid Muhammad, generally acknowledged to be the tactical mastermind behind the 9/11 attacks, was nabbed in Pakistan a few years ago. You remember the fantastic "gotcha" photos of Khalid in his undershirt. Classic! Now that's a bastard who won't get his day in court very soon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dex68

Now, we all know that when a high profile crime happens, there need to be arrests.

Or invasions. If possible, both.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dex68

Point being that there is all kinds of pressure on the government to be seen by the public as doing something to keep us safe, and now, with all the anti-terror laws, they don't even have charge these guys. How wonderful for them.

But these two gentlemen have been charged with something, haven't they?

dex68 · June-4th-2005, 04:09 PM

Let's just see what happens, Monte. We know nothing.

Anyway, it seems that you follow the news more closely than I. I follow the news, but peripherally. However, I stand by the jist of what I said: We can't trust our government's motives. I believe that their prime motivation in the War on Terror is political, not our health and safety. It's a nice replacement for the "Evil Empire" of a few years back. If it were our health they were concerned about they would be doing something about global warming, the general state of the environment, our non-health system, etc. It's all about what is to their advantage, and a terrorist threat is to their political advantage. We have to consider this fact with everything they do concerning the War on Terror.

P.S: I have a hunch that the clinics aren't getting bombed because those folks are Bush supporters.

sonic1 · June-4th-2005, 04:19 PM

Well since the newspaper said they were guilty, they MUST be.

I think we should piss on their holy books and detain them for an undetermined amount of time without charging them with anything, so those fucking liberla judges can't let them roam free. After a while nobody will care about them anymore, all the hype will go away and we can do what we want with them.