Study finds prayer is no help for surgery patients

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

Neither the first nor the last word on the subject, of course.

Music proved slightly more effective as a recuperative therapy.

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Prayer Doesn't Help Heart Surgery Patients: Study
By Steven Reinberg
HealthDay Reporter

THURSDAY, July 14 (HealthDay News) -- Amid the debate over the value of prayer and so-called "noetic interventions" to help people heal, a new study finds that prayer and bedside therapy of music, imagery and touch don't improve the outcomes of patients undergoing heart procedures.

However, patients receiving music, imagery and touch (MIT) therapy did have a slightly lower mortality rate at six months.

The findings appear in the July 16 edition of The Lancet.

The study, called Monitoring and Actualization of Noetic Trainings (MANTRA) II, was led by Dr. Mitchell Krucoff of Duke University Medical Center. He and his colleagues randomly assigned 748 patients undergoing heart catheterization and percutaneous coronary intervention to receive prayer from offsite prayer groups or no prayer. There were Christian, Muslim, Jewish and Buddhist prayer groups.

In addition, half of the patients received MIT therapy and half did not. The MIT therapy involved teaching patients relaxed breathing techniques and playing easy listening, classical or country music during their procedure.

Krucoff's team found that compared to no prayer or MIT therapy, prayer alone or prayer plus MIT did not affect whether patients had a "major cardiovascular event" while in the hospital or had to be readmitted to the hospital or died during the six months following the procedure.

The only exception was that patients who received MIT therapy had less emotional stress before their procedure and slightly lower death rates during the six months after the procedure, compared with patients who did not receive MIT therapy.

"Neither masked prayer nor MIT therapy significantly improved clinical outcome after elective catheterization or percutaneous coronary intervention," the researchers concluded.

Marilyn Schlitz is vice president for research and education at the Institute of Noetic Sciences, a nonprofit organization in Petaluma, Calif., that, according to its Web site, "conducts and sponsors leading-edge research into the potentials and powers of consciousness -- including perceptions, beliefs, attention, intention and intuition."

She believes the effect of prayer on healing needs further study.

"The majority of people in this country make use of prayer or compassionate intention for healing, so it needs to be investigated," said Schlitz. "There has been a taboo in the past about bringing science to bear on religious issues."

Schlitz thinks the study researchers may have been measuring the wrong results. "The questions you ask influence the answers you get," she said. "Probably the next stage in this research is that scientists come together in a really open-minded way and talk about complexities of this work and how we can learn what can hurt and what can help us in the context of prayer and healing."

Another expert sees the new study as part of an evolving relationship between faith and science.

"Spirituality in one form or another is important to most people, and never more so than at times of crisis," said Dr. David L. Katz, an associate clinical professor of public health and director of the Prevention Research Center at Yale University School of Medicine. "The tendency to seek comfort from forces and designs larger than oneself when faced with serious illness or injury is almost irresistible."

The healing arts and prayer have been combined as long as there have been medicine men, shamans, and other spiritual healers, Katz said. "But biomedical science, per se, and religious prayer have diverged historically. We have the ascendancy of patient-centered care and increasing interest in so-called alternative medicine to thank for their pairing," he said.

Wherever such inquiries lead, it is promising that faith and science are looking for common ground, Katz said.

He added, "That suggests the right blend of respect, open-mindedness and cautious skepticism is guiding the progress of medical practice. Were I a spiritual man, that's the very thing I would pray for."

[Enforcer]

Sounds like a scathing indictment of God, if you ask me. What, too busy checking up on who's f**king around on his wife to save some lives, motherf**ker?

[Brian Olewnick]

Fixed

Originally Posted by Squaredancecalling Steve

Schlitz thinks the study researchers may have been measuring the wrong results. "The questions you ask influence the answers you get," she said. "Probably the next stage in this research is that scientists come together in a really open-minded way and talk about complexities of this work and how we can learn what can hurt and what can help us in the context of prayer and healing. On the other hand, we may be talking out of our ass"

[Slurpy]

Well, of course. It's a ridiculous notion that one could be healed thru prayer only.

Ya gotta whack the inflicted, crippled or possessed on the forehead and yell, "Devil be gone!!" too.

[patricia]

Originally Posted by Slurpy

Well, of course. It's a ridiculous notion that one could be healed thru prayer only.

Ya gotta whack the inflicted, crippled or possessed on the forehead and yell, "Devil be gone!!" too.

Exactly what I was going to say.
You'd think that these people have learned nothing from Oral Roberts and Benny Hinn and their ilk. Closed minded elitists.

[Doc Martin]

On a serious note: One could suppose that Marilyn Schlitz (why are all these people in California?) does dot subscribe to Post Hoc, Propter Hoc, which is Latin for "after the fact, therefore because of the fact"

Post hoc, also known as "coincidental correlation" or "false cause," is a logical fallacy which assumes or asserts that if one event happens after another, then the first must be the cause of the second. It is a particularly tempting error because temporal sequence is integral to causality — it is true that a cause always happens before its effect. The fallacy lies in coming to a conclusion based only on the order of events, which is not an accurate indicator. That is to say, it is not always true that the first event caused the second event.

Post hoc is an example of affirming the consequent. It can be expressed as follows:

If event A causes event B, then A must have occurred before B.
Event A occurred before event B.
Therefore, A must have caused B.

Post Hoc also manifests itself as a bias towards jumping to conclusions based upon coincidences. Superstition and magical thinking include Post Hoc thinking; for instance, when a sick person is treated by a witch doctor, or a faith healer, and becomes better afterward, superstitious people conclude that the spell or prayer was effective. Since most illnesses will go away on their own eventually, any treatment will seem effective by Post Hoc thinking. This is why it is so important to test proposed remedies carefully, rather than jumping to conclusions based upon anecdotal evidence.

Post hoc reasoning is related to the logical fallacy "correlation implies causation (cum hoc ergo propter hoc)."

[groover]

Post hoc reasoning is acceptable as a basis for a hypothesis, Doc, but, as I'm sure you know, double-blind trials are required to prove it. Prayer may not prove to be a very reliable cure, but it's a hell of a lot cheaper than most of the alternatives.

[Jesse]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Doc Martin

Post hoc is an example of affirming the consequent.

It's also a term for my financial situation.

[clinthopson]

You skeptics are tempting fate.

Fall down on your knees and pray fiercely before it's too late!

[Salvador Dali Lama]

makes sense to me. magazines do the trick as well! i read an esquire magazine last week while i got a 9mm slug pulled out of my leg. it was an article about how to get rid of man boobs.

some mozart would have been nice too though.

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

Doesn't seem to help heart patients, either.

I await the study on the efficacy of prayer in removing unwanted ear hairs.

°°°


Study: Prayer doesn't affect heart patients

Thursday, March 30, 2006; Posted: 2:26 p.m. EST (19:26 GMT)


NEW YORK (AP) -- In the largest study of its kind, researchers found that having people pray for heart bypass surgery patients had no effect on their recovery. In fact, patients who knew they were being prayed for had a slightly higher rate of complications.

Researchers emphasized their work does not address whether God exists or answers prayers made on another's behalf. The study can only look for an effect from prayers offered as part of the research, they said.

They also said they had no explanation for the higher complication rate in patients who knew they were being prayed for, in comparison to patients who only knew it was possible prayers were being said for them.

The work, which followed about 1,800 patients at six medical centers, was financed by the Templeton Foundation, which supports research into science and religion. It will appear in the American Heart Journal.

Dr. Herbert Benson of Harvard Medical School and other scientists tested the effect of having three Christian groups pray for particular patients, starting the night before surgery and continuing for two weeks. The volunteers prayed for "a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications" for specific patients, for whom they were given the first name and first initial of the last name.

The patients, meanwhile, were split into three groups of about 600 apiece: those who knew they were being prayed for, those who were prayed for but only knew it was a possibility, and those who weren't prayed for but were told it was a possibility.

The researchers did not ask patients or their families and friends to alter any plans they had for prayer, saying such a step would have been unethical and impractical.

The study looked for any complications within 30 days of the surgery. Results showed no effect of prayer on complication-free recovery. But 59 percent of the patients who knew they were being prayed for developed a complication, versus 52 percent of those who were told it was just a possibility.

Dr. Harold G. Koenig, director of the Center for Spirituality, Theology and Health at the Duke University Medical Center, who did not take part in the study, said the results did not surprise him.

"There are no scientific grounds to expect a result and there are no real theological grounds to expect a result either," he said.

Science, he said, "is not designed to study the supernatural."

[Brian Olewnick]

I had to sit down, the shock of this finding was so enormous.

[Doc Martin]

Originally Posted by Brian Olewnick

I had to sit down, the shock of this finding was so enormous.

Me too, that and a large glass of ice water and 400 milligrams of Ibuprofen. Now I feel much better.

[Enforcer]

I think it's pretty funny that researchers never considered the possibility that God might have tampered with the results of this study just to throw them off.

[rollhead]

Does this mean I am not going to get my Mercedes Benz?

What about my Plasma TV?

Even if Dialing for Dollars is trying to find me?

[Surfer]

Originally Posted by rollhead

Does this mean I am not going to get my Mercedes Benz?

You mean I have to settle for a Volkswagen?!?!?!?!?!

[patricia]

Originally Posted by clinthopson

You skeptics are tempting fate.

Fall down on your knees and pray fiercely before it's too late!

Considering that there are only two possible outcomes, should a person fall ill with a serious disease, anything that a person does during the treatment seems to be being considered as helping or hindering their recovery. The fact remains that you are either going to live, or you are going to die.
It seems to me that one of the possible outcomes will result, whether one prays, has someone praying for them or eschews the prayer option totally.

I think that praying at best gives the people who hope for a positive result something to do, while nature, and/or medicine take it's course.
My conclusion is that if prayers were offered and the patient recovers, there will be those who think that praying made the difference. Sadly, if prayers were offered and the patient dies, there are those who think that they didn't pray enough.

Every time I think we are past supernatural methods being trusted to bring positive results to life and death situations, I wonder just how far we've come.

[Doc Martin]

Originally Posted by Larry Nagel

I think it's pretty funny that researchers never considered the possibility that God might have tampered with the results of this study just to throw them off.

God created science so He is exempt from it. the study is clearly part of the global war on christianity carried out by pagan, atheist, heathen, homo-lovin' scientists.

[clinthopson]

Originally Posted by Doc Martin

God created science so He is exempt from it. the study is clearly part of the global war on christianity carried out by pagan, atheist, heathen, homo-lovin' scientists.

You tell 'em, O'Reilly!

[Doc Martin]

Originally Posted by rollhead

Does this mean I am not going to get my Mercedes Benz?

What about my Plasma TV?

Even if Dialing for Dollars is trying to find me?

Where's your Messiah now, rollhead?

[Chris D]

Coming to take your first-born son, wise ass.

[Doc Martin]

Originally Posted by Chris D

Coming to take your first-born son, wise ass.

[Noj]

Saw a most annoying license plate frame while driving on the freeway to school last night:
"I'm not spoiled, it's God's favor."

[groover]

Originally Posted by Squaredancecalling Steve

They also said they had no explanation for the higher complication rate in patients who knew they were being prayed for, in comparison to patients who only knew it was possible prayers were being said for them.

The difference between 59 and 52 percent might not really be very significant based on sample size. What are the 95% confidence intervals around those numbers?

My hypothesis is that knowing that other people were troubling themselves to pray on their behalf tended to create more emotional stress. If I'm going under the knife for heart surgery, I'd probably silently "petition the Lord with prayer" myself, but, rather than comforting me, it would probably only create more stress to know that there are a whole bunch of other people who have an emotional stake in the outcome.

"Petition the Lord with prayer? YOU CAN NOT petition the Lord with prayer!"

[bluenoter]

I gratefully welcome all prayers on my behalf (but don't worry--nothing is new right now).

[steve(thelil)]

I don't think people should pray to Stallone.

[JamesH]

I wonder if praying for the will to exercise and diet might help potential heart attack victims.

[Slurpy]

Originally Posted by JamesH

I wonder if praying for the will to exercise and diet might help potential heart attack victims.

[Gentle Giant]

Study misses the point. Only Christian Scientists would claim that prayer promotes healing. What does prayer do? It provides people who are powerless to effect change in their loved one's health with a way to express their love and hope for a good outcome, and to try to maintain faith (in spite of evidence to the contrary) that there may indeed be a judge who spares the good and righteous. A prayer is an intense, soulful, heartfelt wish, and if it can't help it certainly can't hurt (except in the case of Christian Scientists, who substitute prayer for medical intervention; prayer is best used in conjunction with medicine).

[Brian Olewnick]

Originally Posted by Gentle Giant

Study misses the point. Only Christian Scientists would claim that prayer promotes healing. What does prayer do? It provides people who are powerless to effect change in their loved one's health with a way to express their love and hope for a good outcome, and to try to maintain faith (in spite of evidence to the contrary) that there may indeed be a judge who spares the good and righteous. A prayer is an intense, soulful, heartfelt wish, and if it can't help it certainly can't hurt (except in the case of Christian Scientists, who substitute prayer for medical intervention; prayer is best used in conjunction with medicine).

Not entirely true. I have in-laws (Catholic) who put off needed but invasive and uncomfortable medical treatment in the belief that concentrated praying by family and friends would make the problem disappear.

Shockingly, it never did.

One, recently diagnosed with prostate cancer, was aghast that someone as devoutly religious as himself could possibly be afflicted with such a disease. Well, how about that? Then he figured it must be a test from God. Couldn't simply be a disease, no.