Jazz Purists

[Mike Schwartz]

[I pasted this from the Jazzweek [online] Magazine chat board...thought it might be of interest to post]


> Just some words about my views of a purist.........How many on this
> list remember the day when being called a purist......meant you stood
> for something meaningful and you were informed? You also had
> integrity. Funny how time has changed the meaning of that word. If
> you're a purist now, you're viewed as a snob that tends to not go with
> the flow. Remember the line...."if you don't stand for something
> you'll fall for anything?" I wish I had a dollar for everytime someone
> called me a purist and I'm quite sure a few on this list have had that
> tag put on their coconut as well. Personally I would love to see more
> purists in jazz.
>
> Some of the reasons I get called a purist..... When a fan of MMW tells
> me they groove harder than Booker T - without ever hearing the MG's. I
> say not. Purist. When Kenny G's marketing machine lets the world
> perceive him as playing jazz and Kenny doing nothing to clairfy that
> notion - and I'll go further by saying he seems to bask in that light
> - I say not. Purist. When someone tells me the Bad Plus swing. I say
> not. Purist. When someone tells me smooth jazz is jazz or it can be a
> bridge to jazz.... I say not. Purist. When someone tells me I'm just
> dissin these folk because I don't agree with what is being presented
> to me. I say not. Purist. When someone who's not a jazz musician or
> musician period telling me what jazz is or isn't and I don't agree
> with them. Purist. When someone tells me I don't know anything about
> other kinds of music because I'm so involved in jazz. I say not.
> Purist. Etc....etc....etc......
>
> It's interesting in that anyone who knows me could walk in my home and
> hear "Wheels Of Fire," "Rainbow Bridge," Humble Pie, Zep, BT Express,
> "Live At the Sex Machine," "Last Days and Time," "A Love Supreme,"
> "Live In Stockholm," Clifford, Sonny, etc......I was a rocker and R&B
> soul man first - then jazz for the past 25 years as a performer and
> now at 16 years as a jazz programmer. When it comes to jazz, for me,
> it's simply a respect issue.
>
> I think about the societal mechanisms that someone like Ellington had
> to deal with and how great he became considering. Being forced to ride
> in private Pullman railroad cars. He was terrified of flying but he
> was probably forced to do that as well. Or how they laughed at Monk.
> What an example of extraordinary perservance. They laughed and dissed
> and Monk continued to be.......Monk. Then they loved and embraced him.
> There were very clear standards set for this music long ago. High
> standards and they were achived through tremendous hardships and they
> were true individuals who became major artistic influences.
>
> Many have run from that challenge because they couldn't deal with it
> and came back with something that "C" and "Bb" major - could love.
> Then once they realized they could have a large following by not
> having to live up to those high standards...it was a done deal. The
> followers came....then the ones who should have been emulated started
> emulating the ones that should have been emulating them. They also
> realized there is strength in numbers. Who cares what those purists
> think.....check out my bank account and these large crowds. The sign
> of success in our culture unfortunately. It takes courage as well for
> the artist to embrace these high standards because the odds are
> they're not going to have a large bank account or a huge following but
> it's been done.
>
> Yepper, I'm one of those purists. I know the difference between the BS
> straight eighth note and the swinging kind and I also know the
> intentions of both. There is a very creative kind of straight eighth
> and Corea, McLaughlin and Shorter know it well. Kenny G, Beckenstein
> and Freeman apparently miss what they were saying or the
> aforementioned scared the you know what out of them. Musician's play
> music for three reasons.....artistic and spiritual gratification,
> commerce or or all three. Now the lines are blurred. Not just on the
> stage but in jazz radio as well. Cut the money - change the standards
> to survive or perhaps you simply don't know what those standards
> really mean. Again, respect. I'm hoping that more musician's, critics,
> programmers can intelligently up hold those standards and more
> importantly, recognize what they are. Unfortunately many don't care
> about standards in jazz music or would know what they are. I would bet
> purists do.
>
> Even though these standards were set by great jazz artists, they
> crossed genres of music. Someone mentioned Blood, Sweat and Tears.
> Then there's early Chicago, Cold Blood, Donald Fagen, Billy Joel,
> Maurice White, Stevie and many more back in the day. Back then I
> suspect we wouldn't be spending as much time trying to justify
> mediocre talent.
>
> Jae Sinnett
> WHRV FM

[Darryl G. Thomas]

I find myself agreeing with a lot of what the author has written. I'm kind of a music nut. If someone were to see my music collection they'd figure I was schizo or something. The husband of a friend of mine couldn't understand why I had Ella Fitzgerald alongside Led Zep in my CD racks.

My point is, I think I have a pretty good idea about what jazz is because I've experienced lots of different music. Many non-jazz fans have an "idea" of what jazz is without having experienced the music, but they don't mind telling you what it is. If you disagree, then the "jazz snob" business comes out.

I'm reminded of a comic's routine about folks calling their country the "greatest country in the world", even though they've never visited any other country.

In today's world, I think the definition of purist has changed from having exacting standards to being a person who looks down upon something.

Outstanding article, Mike!!

[Coda]

The line that made me sigh was 'When someone tells me the Bad Plus swing. I say not. Purist.'

Yes, lines like this do help to transform the word purist from being meaningful to being a snob. This is an example of three incredibly talented musicians that can and do swing - when they choose to do so - to something less. Why? Because they play pop music within a jazz idiom? Because they have a following outside of jazz? Maybe the coin should be flipped over and say that they are exceptional jazz musicians because they can straddle the world of jazz and pop with ease.

Listen to Reid Andersons 'The Vastness of Space' or Ethan Iversons 'Minor Passions' and tell me these guys aren't the real deal.

[clinthopson]

Originally Posted by Darryl G. Thomas

In today's world, I think the definition of purist has changed from having exacting standards to being a person who looks down upon something.

That may be true in general. But isn't a purist one who has set personal high standards? If you have high standards, a lot of stuff just doesn't meet them. So maybe you look down or denigrate the lesser achievers.

For me that not only goes for jazz but also art, food, literature, architecture, theater, movies and other items that don't meet my rediculous high standards.

[Sergio Zamora]

Yawnsville.

[Darryl G. Thomas]

Clint,

What I'm afraid of is that "purist" and "snob" have come to mean the same thing. And you are right, you can substitute the word "jazz" in the article with a multitude of things.

I get the feeling that many may be afraid of being seen as "Stanley Crouch" lite. Just having standards can be bad. They don't even have to be "high".

In the case of music, I've felt that words had to mean something. Genres of music had to have some defining characteristics. If not, how do you identify the genre? Jazz can't be a catchall term, can it? When does a musical performance cease being jazz?

[clinthopson]

I suppose maybe "standards" isn't the proper word. After being on the planet this long, I've pretty much decided what I like and don't like. I think that applying genres, especially in jazz, is pretty dicey.

My own tastes cover many styles from Louis Armstrong to Bud Powell to Dave Brubeck to Woody Herman to Joe Lovano with many stops in between.

If it sounds good to me, it meets my high standards.

Maybe Sergio is right. . .

[Boris Badenov]

"That's 'cause Bernie is a purist, not some polyester tourist..."

[JamesH]

The backlash against so called purists, is I think based on America's general fear of intelligence. Since the overwhelming majority of American's prefer TV to books, the idea of someone who has developed an informed and refined since of taste for any intellectual endeavor is feared by the masses. Thus the backlash.

Of course if that same person parades his knowledge as superior to all others that's another issue altogether.

[Paul B]

I think JamesH has hit the nail on the head.

Bye-ya

[Coda]

I don't agree at all. The 'masses' don't like or know jazz - they're the ones who think Kenny G is jazz. The 'pure' label comes from within the jazz community (for example).

Rather than a fear of intelligence, it's a game for those who are both intelligent and wish to prove...or maybe a better term is to validate...that they are more intelligent than the other members of the community.

I also believe that 'purists' are not just Americans.

[Sergio Zamora]

Originally Posted by JamesH

The backlash against so called purists, is I think based on America's general fear of intelligence. Since the overwhelming majority of American's prefer TV to books, the idea of someone who has developed an informed and refined since of taste for any intellectual endeavor is feared by the masses. Thus the backlash.

Maybe your definition of 'purist' is different from what I have in mind. What you're describing here is what I would call a connosseur. Not the same thing (necessarily)

[walto]

Keep in mind here, that Sergio is a leading 18-Century encyclopedist.

[Enforcer]

The only people who seem to mind purists are the ones who feel like they're being looked down on for not being one.

The problem is, sometimes one thing is actually better than another. If one person realizes that but the other doesn't, how do you tactfully resolve that? When I was a kid, I thought the best hamburger in the world was this one they served at a restaurant in Devonshire mall in Windsor, Ontario. My grandparents hated the place, said they served "rubber hamburgers," but since I was the apple of their collective eye, they would take me there to eat whenever we visited the mall. I thought they were as good as, if not better than, the ones my mom made from quality ground sirloin. When I got a little older, I got my head right and stopped wanting to eat rubber hamburgers from the mall.

So am I a purist for preferring the good burger my mom made, or a connoisseur?

[Coda]

I can't answer which you are now, but when you were a kid you were one of the masses. Mall food is to mom's burgers as Kenny G is to jazz.

[Sergio Zamora]

Originally Posted by walto

Keep in mind here, that Sergio is a leading 18-Century encyclopedist.

Who can't spell connoisseur

[Paul B]

Maybe your definition of 'purist' is different from what I have in mind. What you're describing here is what I would call a connosseur.

So am I a purist for preferring the good burger my mom made, or a conneiseur?

Might we at least strive for some linguistic purity, and spell this word correctly? It's connoisseur.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled program...;--)

[graypencil]

Originally Posted by walto

Keep in mind here, that Sergio is a leading 18-Century encyclopedist.

Walter ( and Sergio ) speak the truth:

careful attention to the semantics of word choices are one of the casualties of the generally dumbed down society we live in.

I don't consider myself overly intellectual, but I do have a reasonably good education ( for a musician ) and, like Clint and others here, have a higher standard of appreciation for any number of things: drama, cinema,wine, scotch, well written crime novels,and a number of forms of music.

[Enforcer]

Originally Posted by Paul B

Might we at least strive for some linguistic purity, and spell this word correctly? It's connoisseur.

Now, back to our regularly scheduled program...;--)

Now that I'm on the outside, I've decided that purists are bad people.

Changing sides,
Larry

[RainyDay]

I think anyone who needs to refer to themself as a purist has serious self esteem issues. Why anyone would need to trot out their top choice in music or books or whatever as an example of their refinement is kind of sad, really. It's like people who get off on designer labels.

Has anyone heard Mr. Sinnett's music? He must be incredibly gifted as a musician, right?

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by RainyDay

I think anyone who needs to refer to themself as a purist has serious self esteem issues. Why anyone would need to trot out their top choice in music or books or whatever as an example of their refinement is kind of sad, really. It's like people who get off on designer labels.

Has anyone heard Mr. Sinnett's music? He must be incredibly gifted as a musician, right?

I think one can be a purist without advertising the fact. But if a persons feels they need to prove their superiority then I agree, they've got a problem.

For example the idea of being a wine collector appeals to me for all the wrong reasons. Truth be told I don't get much more from good wine than a buzz. If I turned my basement into a cellar and bought a thousand bottles I'd have a serious problem. But I have over a thousand jazz records because the music massages my soul, so to speak. My life would be less rich without those records.

[Paul B]

I agree. To be a purist--to be, as Clint says, one who has set certain standards for the things in life one loves, whether it be music, wine, or sports cars--it not necessary to be a snob, and does not presume arrogance. Those qualities, and other annoying traits, are certainly found in some "purists," but just as certainly not found in others.

Bye-ya

[JamesH]

Originally Posted by Coda

I don't agree at all. The 'masses' don't like or know jazz - they're the ones who think Kenny G is jazz. The 'pure' label comes from within the jazz community (for example).

Rather than a fear of intelligence, it's a game for those who are both intelligent and wish to prove...or maybe a better term is to validate...that they are more intelligent than the other members of the community.

I also believe that 'purists' are not just Americans.

I believe if you're playing a 'game' you're not truly a purist. A purist should believe in the purity of an art for the love of it. Unfortunately, for some, the purity of ones appreciation of an art sometimes leads to a lack of appreciation for lowers forms of that art.

The problems with definitions of 'lower forms' of jazz go back to Darryl's point. How can it be defined without pissing everyone off? Is all music jazz?

As soon as I talk about jazz fundamentals I piss off 90% of JazzCorner. Why is that?

[Mike Schwartz]

Originally Posted by RainyDay

I think anyone who needs to refer to themself as a purist has serious self esteem issues. Why anyone would need to trot out their top choice in music or books or whatever as an example of their refinement is kind of sad, really. It's like people who get off on designer labels.

Has anyone heard Mr. Sinnett's music? He must be incredibly gifted as a musician, right?

RD;
He's a fine musician.
I put this item on the board because I like the general theme.
Could I poke a few holes in it from a personal perspective? Sure, but the thing that stands out for me is how he calls his *Purist* take a sign of respect.

Sure I can go to the local deli and rip open the plastic wrap on a Twinkie, but when I remember how truly amazing the stuff my Mother used to paintakingly bake at home was; It would be hard to call that other sweet stuff cake.

[GoodSpeak]

I like Jazz that swings.




Does this make me a purist?

[Mike Schwartz]

Originally Posted by GoodSpeak

I like Jazz that swings.




Does this make me a purist?

You've been here long enough where nobody here would believe that you, Goody, are PURE;-)

[GoodSpeak]

Originally Posted by Mike Schwartz

You've been here long enough where nobody here would believe that you, Goody, are PURE;-)

OK.

Ya got me on that one.




























sheesh

[graypencil]

Originally Posted by RainyDay

Has anyone heard Mr. Sinnett's music? He must be incredibly gifted as a musician, right?

For the record:


Actually, Jai is an excellent jazz drummer who has a great trio CD with pianist Allan Farnham in addition to being a broadcaster ,and journalist of some controversy.

He's also a very nice guy who was very encouraging of my CD when it came out a couple years ago.

[Mike Schwartz]

It's Jae, GP...