Clubs: When do you "shush" someone

[Chris D]

Pretty interesting piece. I'm of the Mingus "No-talking-don't-jiggle-your-icecubes" school myself.

The last word on SHUSHING
Club owners speak on rules for patrons, dreaded shush-backs and when to give up

By Monica Eng
Tribune staff reporter
Published July 29, 2005


At a recent reading at Schubas Tavern, author Nick Hornby ("A Long Way Down," "High Fidelity") recalled the gloriously ear splitting rock concerts of his youth and compared them with the quieter, gentler music shows he'd turned to later in life. These grown-up shows weren't just easier on the ears, they'd fill the author with the shocking urge to actually shush noisy concertgoers around him, he said. "I mean I love Gillian Welch, but that's when you know you've become an adult."

Adults or not, plenty of us can relate to Hornby's musical evolution. Especially those of us who've stood in our favorite club savoring an exquisitely quiet musical moment only to have the jerk standing next to us start yakking loudly about his recent vacation.

At this moment, shushing the offender is among the kinder responses we can think of.

So the question is: Is a musical performance at an alcohol-serving club really a listening event, or is it merely background noise for socializing? We think the answer is obvious. But if you go by the behavior of many Chicago-area music club patrons, there still seems to be a lot of confusion on the topic.

When is it OK to talk during a musical performance--and when is it plain rude? And how do various clubs handle those vocal villains who always seem to be standing next to us? At Ravinia Festival in Highland Park, the management employs an official shusher who marches around the park with a sign that says "Quiet, please, during the performance ..." Some other clubs post signs around the room, asking patrons to be "respectful of the performer and their fellow patrons." And still others advise folks at the door that they will be expected to keep their pie holes shut during the performance.

We recently called up a handful of area club owners and bookers to yak about shushing.

WHEN DO YOU SHUSH?

Bill FitzGerald, co-owner of FitzGerald's: I'm a shusher for sure. If people bought tickets to see an artist and the lion's share of the people are listening and there are three or four areas that, if you could just get them to be silent, the whole place would be quiet, I will go around and shush.

Nick Miller, booker for Jam productions: I think it's all common sense. If it's a quiet show, you shouldn't be talking.

WHAT IS UP WITH THESE TALKERS?

FitzGerald: Sometimes you just look at them and think, "How stupid can you be to pay $15 for a show and come in and blab away about your problems or your vacation when this artist is on stage singing?"

Matt Rucins, booker for Schubas: I shake my head every time and so do my doormen . . . but with some, I don't even think they realize they are talking that loud and they will stop when you ask them.

WHAT ARE YOUR FRONT-END STRATEGIES?

Dave Jemilo, owner of the Green Mill: We tell the people at the door when they are getting ready to pay what the rules are for the night. . . . We have different levels of [quiet] rules . . . the first is the [Sheila] Jordan rule, which means absolutely no talking during the band performance. Then there's Jordan-lite which means be as quiet as possible during the show--and that would be for something like the battle of the saxes. Then we have the rules for bands that are pretty loud, like Mama Dig Down or something like that. I figure if you warn them ahead of time, they can say, "I'm not going in this joint for 10 bucks if I'm not gonna be able to talk."

HOW DO YOU TELL PEOPLE TO KEEP IT DOWN?

Jemilo: First you shush, then say `can you keep it down?' Then you put your hand up and down. But if that doesn't work and they are really jacked up, you have to act meaner than you are . . . then they'll get scared and stop. But I don't like doing it. I don't want to act like a baby-sitter for adults.

WHAT KINDS OF RESPONSES DO YOU GET TO SHUSHING?

FitzGerald: More often you get a reaction of surprise and `oh, I'm sorry' and they are cool about it. But occasionally some people get very annoyed and say, "I thought this was a bar." But the worst reaction of all is when they start shushing you back and you want to say grow up. I hate the shush-back.

MORE ON THE DREADED SHUSH-BACK:

Jemilo: Sometimes you get more people talking than listening. [When you shush them] they start screaming at you and shushing you back. I hate that.

Rucins: Sometimes when I shush them, one person will shush back and people will think it's funny and then they will all start shushing and mock me.

WHO ARE THE BIGGEST OFFENDERS?

FitzGerald: I hate to say it, but sometimes it's my own staff. Or even worse, musicians who have already finished their sets and they'll be standing there talking with a fan or a friend. Some know that they should take it outside, but others don't.

WHAT HAPPENS WHEN FANS TAKE SHUSHING INTO THEIR OWN HANDS?

Jemilo: That gets kind of funky sometimes . . . If you're tactful, it's fine, but if you are going to try to be the big guy and make a scene, it can turn into a problem.

UNCOMFORTABLE SHUSHING SITUATIONS:

FitzGerald: Sometimes when I've just finished shushing somebody, someone will come up to me and wants to talk and I have to say, "You know, I just finished shushing somebody. I can't talk to you."

Miller: When I am out at a show, whether I've booked it or not, it drives me bananas when people come up and talk to me. I want to tell them, "You want to talk to me, let's talk after the show."

WHEN DO YOU DROP THE SHUSHING RULES?

Jemilo: Sometimes, like during the third set on a Friday night, when it's getting crowded and we're getting people from other bars, I'll sometimes say [to the artist] `Hey man, I don't think a ballad will work this set.' At that point, you just have more people talking than listening. Sometimes the people just want to party.

Rucins: Sometimes it's just an unwinnable battle because you have a room where the majority of the fans of the band decide the way to enjoy them is not listen. Then there is nothing you can do.

WHAT ARE THE ARTISTS EXPERIENCING AND HOW DO THEY RESPOND?

Miller: I've personally experienced some artists who have become very irritated with the audience talking and stopped the show and made mention of it. It actually freaks people out, but I'm not going to name any names.

- - -

5 tips on dealing with yakkers

- Stand near the front of the stage where the "real" fans are, not the bar, sound board or merch table where yakkers talk most freely.

- If the yakkers don't respond to your outraged stares, ask for help from the staff rather than taking it into your own hands.

- Call ahead to find out if the concert will be a seated show or a stand-up show--seats diminish yakking considerably.

- Avoid clubs and shows that are likely to attract more scenesters (Wicker Park types) than cultishly devoted or just polite fans.

- If the majority of people in the room are yakking, you may need to concede defeat and just go home and listen to the record.

The quiet 5

Here's a list of hushed places to hear a concert:

Old Town School of Folk Music on any night's performance; 4544 N. Lincoln Ave., 773-728-6000.

Green Mill on the performance nights when they enforce the quiet rules; 4802 N. Broadway, 773-878-5552.

Schubas Tavern when there are seats for the concert or a rare performance; 3159 N. Southport Ave., 773-525-2508.

FitzGerald's when there are seats or when co-owner Bill FitzGerald is on shush patrol; 6615 W. Roosevelt Rd., Berwyn, 708-788-2118.

Jazz Showcase, temple of jazz with silence enforced; 59 W. Grand Ave., 312-670-2473.

... And the worst place in town to try to hear the musicians over the din of yakkingposers: Double Door, 1572 N. Milwaukee Ave., 773-489-3160.

[Enforcer]

I don't hesitate to politely ask someone to please be quiet, and if he doesn't listen, I don't have any problem escalating the situation until it gets resolved, one way or the other. I also don't think it's out of the question to pull a knife or a gun if necessary. The manners and attitudes of concertgoers have plummeted to the extent that I can't believe we're part of the same audience. I feel like I'm from another planet and grew up with a completely different set of expectations. It's sad that some ignorant f**k has to die or suffer a really bad injury because he can't keep his mouth shut, but that's what it has come down to.

[Rob C]

Best shushing I ever saw was at the Green Mill, by Mr. Matt Wilson. He had drolly asked the audience several times to be quiet, which amused those of us up front, but was wasted on the loudtalkers at the bar.

Finally, he played a drum solo, with brushes on just a snare, up at the front of the stage, playing like a shuffle rhythm: shh-shh-SHH-shh, shh-shh-SHH-shh, shh-shh-SHH-shh.

Then he lifted the brushes into the air, continuing to "play" them, and began whispering into the mike, "shh-shh-SHH-shh, shh-shh-SHH-shh, shh-shh-SHH-shh".

Then he transformed it into "shut the F**K up, shut the F**K up, shut the F**K up". Then the rest of the band joined in the chant.

It was all still wasted on the loudtalkers--but us up front, we were rolling in the aisles!

[GoodSpeak]

Originally Posted by Larry Nagel

I don't hesitate to politely ask someone to please be quiet, and if he doesn't listen, I don't have any problem escalating the situation until it gets resolved, one way or the other. I also don't think it's out of the question to pull a knife or a gun if necessary. The manners and attitudes of concertgoers have plummeted to the extent that I can't believe we're part of the same audience. I feel like I'm from another planet and grew up with a completely different set of expectations. It's sad that some ignorant f**k has to die or suffer a really bad injury because he can't keep his mouth shut, but that's what it has come down to.

Um.


Detroit, right?

[patricia]

Originally Posted by Larry Nagel

I don't hesitate to politely ask someone to please be quiet, and if he doesn't listen, I don't have any problem escalating the situation until it gets resolved, one way or the other. I also don't think it's out of the question to pull a knife or a gun if necessary. The manners and attitudes of concertgoers have plummeted to the extent that I can't believe we're part of the same audience. I feel like I'm from another planet and grew up with a completely different set of expectations. It's sad that some ignorant f**k has to die or suffer a really bad injury because he can't keep his mouth shut, but that's what it has come down to.

Larry I just knew that you were my kind of guy.
Sometimes just giving the offenders the look without the additional threat of the deadly force of a knife or gun just doesn't work. Buncha undisciplined savages!!!

[GoodSpeak]

Originally Posted by patricia

Larry I just knew that you were my kind of guy.
Sometimes just giving the offenders the look without the additional threat of the deadly force of a knife or gun just doesn't work. Buncha undisciplined savages!!!

Did you know only women can do the "look"?


I swear....men can't do it.





It's in the DNA.

If only this would have been implemented during Miles Plugged Nickel sessions!!!! Quite possibly the most shush free session in recorded history.

[kenny weir]

Depends on the club.

Melbourne's pivotal room, Bennetts Lane, is pretty strict and as a punter I regularly feel emboldned to emply the look or more. Each show starts with a "STFU/turn off your mobiles" pre-amble.

Although on a recent show by the very loud Scott Tinkler Quartet, the mobile part was amended by Scott muttering, "You won't be able to hear them anyway".

Other venues and their players are more relaxed, with many acknowledging that there are entertainment and social angles involved.

I'm not sure I really wanna hear a Hammond combo steaming away in a shush-type place, ya know.

Having said that, I'm pretty much a full-time adherant of not falling for the clap trap: Clapping when solos are being wound up just fucks everything up - on the bandstand, in the audience and in the magical link between the two.

[bruce massey]

Originally Posted by GoodSpeak

Um.


Detroit, right?

Fuckin A right Detroit!

I say that you shoosh when:

A) You know you can kick their ass

B) You might not be able to kick their ass but the music is worth the risk!

Nagel Rocks.

[cookie]

Damn! I wish I had read this before I went to work tonight!

My quartet is playing two nights in a hotel as part of a city wide jazz festival (I met Bobby Watson tonight! Yay!). The first two sets were great. The people who came in were there to *hear* us. But THEN a wedding reception party came in and they were LOUD.

I wish I had had the cojones to shush them. People started leaving after they came in. We started the evening like a jazz dream, and then these people just stomped on the "space" in which we were creating music.

Oy!

On the way home I swear to God, I thought that I should come up with some kind of workzone type sign that says something like "Shhh! Musicians at Work".

Great article and thread. I'm going to pass it on.

(PS, talking also annoys the hell out of me when I'm listening because I'm *really* listening. Don't get me wrong: sometimes live music *is* designed to be background music, but when the performer is the *feature* and the reason that people are coming into the joint in the first place---well---the listeners should be able to hear the music and the musicians shouldn't have to scream to be heard. Still, that's life and many times, there's just nothing you can do about it. Even when the people are ignoring you and treating you like Muzak, you'll hear those one or two people clapping after each tune through the din. You feel grateful that SOMEbody's hearing you. You can get through, but man, it's tough.)

[Jazzooo]

Argh. I go through this all of the time in movie theaters. People think nothig about talking all the way through a movie, even an indie art film. They open their brightly-lit cel phones, check messages and play video games on them. THey take calls and say things like "I'm in a movie--so what are you up to?"

I don't understand what goes on in their minds.

As a performer, I am split about the clapping rule. I do agree that it can wreck the moment and interfere with the intimact onstage. But at the same time, I have been programmed to feel bad if no one claps after my solo--part of me feels like the audience must have just been waiting for me to finish and they certainly weren't going to clap for me now.

It's even worse when they then clap for the sax player!

Man, I suck.

[patricia]

I've often wished, both in clubs and in theatres, that it would be nice if the majority, who are listening or watching the artist, or the film would take action.
They could all silently rise from their seats, approach the offending yahoos and quietly and politely, with the style and grace common to civilized people choke the life out of those who have ignored several shushes, as well as "the look" . They had their chance.
Larry's solution is still an option, but a noisy gunshot might further disrupt the performance.

[Jazzooo]

Sadly, Patricia--at least in movies the non-talkers are not 'the majority' today.

[patricia]

Originally Posted by Jazzooo

Sadly, Patricia--at least in movies the non-talkers are not 'the majority' today.

You're right, Jazzooo. I suspect that that is why the sound systems are so loud. My head hurts from the barrage in multiplexes. Ouch!
My theory is that there are so many who mostly watch videos in their homes, they have forgotten how to conduct themselves in a theatre.
At symphony concerts, even the rustling of a lozenge being unwrapped gets "the look" from other concert-goers.
Maybe it's the refreshments being served at a club that alters people's normally acceptable behaviour. I don't know what it is at a theatre. Buncha no-mannered boobs.

[tippy]

Originally Posted by patricia

I suspect that that is why the sound systems are so loud.

I too am very uncomfortable with how loud theatre sound systems are nowadays. Grating on my very nerves! I came up with a different, though perhaps related, theory that the high volume is largely to compel emotion for the dreck they offer these days.

[Pete C]

I was once at a concert (Hungarian & Roumanian music), and there was this young neo-hippieish couple with a baby in a different section from me. The baby was making loud but normal baby interjections, gurgles, etc. throughout the performance, and nobody in the area around the parents said a thing. Finally, between tunes, I turned toward them and yelled out, "Excuse me, but your bringing a noisy baby to a concert is very rude to the audience as well as the musicians." They got a perplexed look on their face, then they had a little conference, got up and left, never to return to their seats.

I tell people to be quiet all the time. I've occasionally received threats of physical violence in return.

A couple of weeks ago I was at the Kitano Hotel to see Lew Tabackin. In the middle of the set, a guy up front gets a call on his cell phone, takes it, and talks loudly. A guy at the table next to him takes the quiet policy card in a plexiglass holder over and stamps it down loudly on the table in front of him. A minute later, the phone guy's girlfreind goes over to the other guy's table with the card and says, "you can shove this up your ass." The staff defused the situation, and the offending assholes left.

The best retort from a musician I ever witnessed was when Eddie Harris stopped playing and said to a table of loud talkers, "how would you like it if I came to your place of business and made a lot of noise while you were trying to do your job?"

[We No Speak]

Great posts...

I've been concert going since 1968 and started with rock concerts at the Fillmore in San Francisco. Since then, I've been to most every major venue in the San Francisco Bay Area.

I've also ushered at many slightly more recent shows at Shoreline in Mt. View (a BGP venue).

For audience participation on record, Jimmy Smith's "The Boss" with George Benson is right up there.

What I don't get is that seats for many shows these days can cost well over 100.00, and the people that pay all that money for a seat, don't sit, they stand?! Whaa??? What do you do with them?

Yikes, we the people, can be quite frightening at times...

Rick Calic
www.jazzrockworld.com

[patricia]

Originally Posted by We No Speak

For audience participation on record, Jimmy Smith's "The Boss" with George Benson is right up there.

I have "The Boss" and just the other day remarked that the noise in the club was distracting. But, Smith didn't seem to mind, so I guess it was acceptable to him.
It seems to me that in his later years he got a bit more testy about audience noise.

[Cem]

I'm really sick of having to do the "shush" dance. There's a moron in every crowd. Sometimes, because it's a restaurant & performance space, I have to stand back & let people do their thing, because I don't want to come across as being too precious or anything as a venue. Yet, I also want it to be a reasonably good listening room. Not everyone is a music fan and are out to have a good time in their own way. So, I try not to book any listening type music on weekends & go for more of a party atmosphere. Even then, we run into problems.

We had two fucked up drunks at the David Lindley show last night, who came seperately, but both obnoxious, heckling & commenting loudly. I kicked them both out. Called a cab for one & got into a physical altercation with another. Here I was throttling a loser on the sidewalk in front of Rime, while defending myself. Not a pretty sight & made me feel like an asshole & a brute. I hate to be put in that position. All this after half a dozen warnings & customer complaints. Tough call on a lot of this stuff, but no sense in trying to talk sense to a drunken idiot...

[RedJazz]

Leave it to the musicans. Nowadays sound reinforcement systems are so powerful, even for piano trios, that it's virtually impossible to hear ones self thing, let alone be heard talking, which is one reason I prefer low end clubs that can't afford such accoutrements.

[mjb]

Originally Posted by Jazzooo

Sadly, Patricia--at least in movies the non-talkers are not 'the majority' today.

My wife and I were at a movie a while ago and a foursome (2 men - 2 women) were yakking behind us.

I turned and politely did the "I'm sure you must not realise how loud ... " thing.

Five minutes later they were at it again and I asked for quiet again. The reply from the main culprit (MC) was "No."

I threatened to get the manager but they ignored me and continued. I got up and went to find the manager. (Chris told me afterwards that in my absence someone else asked them to pipe down and MC said "we got rid of that guy why don't you join him?"

I came back with the manager who politely asked them to show some consideration to the rest of the audience. MC refused. The manager said he would call the police. MC said "go ahead."

15 minutes later the manager was back and told MC the police were in the lobby and asked him if he'd now be quiet. The answer was still "no."

The maanger called the police in and removed MC with his pals following 5 minutes later. Much of the audience around us applauded.

Chris helpfully whispered to me that MC and his henchmen would probably be waiting outside for me.

Afterwards the manager told me the police had asked him to just be quiet and they'd go away but he refused. I couldn't help but have a grudging smidgeon of admiration for madness that sublime.

[Pete C]

I wa once at a double feature at a revival house. Two women behind me were talking throughout the first film. During intermission I turned to them and said, "Excuse me, do you plan on talking through the second film too? Because if you do, I'll move."

One on the women replied, indignantly, "That's very unfair. You should have told us before. That's very unfair!"

[Enforcer]

Fixed.

Originally Posted by Cem

We had two fucked up drunks at the David Lindley show last night, who came seperately, but both obnoxious, heckling & commenting loudly. I kicked them both out. Called a cab for one & got into a physical altercation with another. Here I was throttling a loser on the sidewalk in front of Rime, while defending myself. Not a pretty sight & made me feel like an asshole & a brute. I hate to be put in that position. All this after half a dozen warnings & customer complaints. Tough call on a lot of this stuff, but no sense in trying to talk sense to a drunken idiot...

I think it's safe to say I'll never see either of those women again.

[Rob C]

Originally Posted by Pete C

The best retort from a musician I ever witnessed was when Eddie Harris stopped playing and said to a table of loud talkers, "how would you like it if I came to your place of business and made a lot of noise while you were trying to do your job?"

The lame final episode of Seinfeld was totally worth sitting through for the sublime minute or so at the very end showing Jerry is doing his stand-up routine in prison. He gets heckled and his reply is, "Hey, I don't come to where you work and knock the license plate out of your hand."

[RedJazz]

Clubs are different from movies, plays or concerts. People go to clubs to socialize. In a sense they're part of the entertainment, especially in supper clubs with good menus. In that setting (as in dance halls) the music is just part of the ambiance. It's like when I get together with a group of friends for an evening of conversation and listening to recorded jazz. In such a setting someone might call attention to a particular solo and we might stop conversing to listen. It's a little trickier live, but essentially the same principle. It might take a chorus or two to realize that the band or a particular soloist is really cooking. That might seem insulting to musicians generally, but it seems to me that is the nature of a club setting, especially a supper club.

Re theatre I'm given to understand that when Shakespeare was originally performed the audience paid only peripheral attention which is perhaps why Shakespeare in the park works so well. I suspect when Shakespeare was still alive he understood that came with the territory and in fact wrote his plays with that in mind. It was only later generations that started to treat him with awe.

Likewise with jazz. I can't imagine that people could even have a serious discussion such as this back in the day when they were all stompin' at the Savoy. My advice. Lighten up and maybe even the jazz will get both better, more accessible and more swinging.

[RedJazz]

How bout you're in a club (this has actually happened to me) and the people talking over the music are not only musicians but friends of the people on the band stand playing. It's the squares who are telling them to shut up.

[Cem]

Originally Posted by Larry Nagel

Fixed.
"...I think it's safe to say I'll never see either of those women again."

You think I look scratched up, you should see them...

[patricia]

Originally Posted by cookie

Damn! I wish I had read this before I went to work tonight!



On the way home I swear to God, I thought that I should come up with some kind of workzone type sign that says something like "Shhh! Musicians at Work".

Great article and thread. I'm going to pass it on.

Don't get me wrong: sometimes live music *is* designed to be background music, but when the performer is the *feature* and the reason that people are coming into the joint in the first place---well---the listeners should be able to hear the music and the musicians shouldn't have to scream to be heard. Still, that's life and many times, there's just nothing you can do about it. Even when the people are ignoring you and treating you like Muzak, you'll hear those one or two people clapping after each tune through the din. You feel grateful that SOMEbody's hearing you. You can get through, but man, it's tough.)

Cookie, do you ever have to deal with some apparently aspiring singer who seems to think that it's cool to sing along with you?
I ask because it's happened more than once when I've been in a club.
"The look" from the stage didn't work. Comments from around the twit didn't work. The very off-key singing continued through every song, even the ones to which the slightly drunk woman that the woman didn't know the lyrics, but actually hummed .
Have you had that happen to you?? If it has, what did you do??

[cookie]

Patricia: I have never had aspiring singers sing along with me at a volume that is troublesome. I often see patrons mouthing the words to the songs I'm singing, but if they are actually making noise, it's not really annoyingly audible. In fact, I kind of like it. It means that they're listening and that I'm singing a song they like. I've gone up to folks and said, "I can see you mouthing the words out there which is cool because it's kind of like a teleprompter for me and keeps me honest with the words!".

I'm actually probably one of the worst offenders in this regard but I try to be quiet about it. I know so many instrumental "heads" that I'll sing along wordlessly to instrumental tunes (my husband remarked that my idea of a "sing along" is sort of different from the rest of the world's). Nobody ever got mad at me over it or gave me a dirty look, but I *do* try to keep it down just because. Sotto voce.

The worst singing-along comes not from aspiring singers, but from drunk guys who want me to sing Sinatra songs and then when I do, they howl along like they think they're Ol' Blue Eyes. Ugh. They are the little demons in jazz hell.

[clinthopson]

That's why I like big bands the assholes can't talk over them.

Probably the most singing along I ever experienced was at a Linda Ronstadt "Canciones de Mi Padres" concert.

Most of the very large audience was Latino, mostly Mexican, I suppose.

Well, they sang along, loudly, with Linda on every song.

I got a bit irritated at first and them realized that Ronsadt was singing their heritage.

So I sang along whenever I knew the words.

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.