tell me why I should get the upcoming Mosaic Buddy Rich set...

dizmonk · August-4th-2005, 06:15 PM

Don't have anything by him. He wasn't really on my radar screen (I knew who he was) BUT.... the co-stars listed in the Mosaic set is awesome...

"....performances that paired him with 'Sweets'

Edison, Benny Carter, George Auld (ts), Thad Jones, Joe Newman, Ben Webster, Frank Wess, Oscar Peterson, Sonny Criss, Jimmy Rowles, Barney Kessel, Frank Rosolino, Bob Cooper. Added to this is his live Miami album on Verve with Flip Phillips...."

I'm intrigued.... So what's the scoop you wise men.... (Do we have any active women on this board?)...?

Who's getting it? Who's not? Why?

thanks

Peterdubya · August-4th-2005, 07:46 PM

drums.
swingin drums.
over the top swingin' drums.
pretty happenin' horns too.

vibes · August-4th-2005, 08:56 PM

I believe the two Buddy Rich Verve LPRs that are currently available are going to be included in this set. My advice: pick 'em up and have a listen. If you like what you hear, buy the set.

Ron Thorne · August-4th-2005, 09:20 PM

Buddy Rich is/was far from being being my favorite drummer, but he had some hellishly good bands surrounding him.

vibes offers sound advice in his post . . . pun intended.

frankiepop · August-4th-2005, 10:55 PM

Quote:

"....performances that paired him with 'Sweets' Edison, Benny Carter, George Auld (ts), Thad Jones, Joe Newman, Ben Webster, Frank Wess, Oscar Peterson, Sonny Criss, Jimmy Rowles, Barney Kessel, Frank Rosolino, Bob Cooper. Added to this is his live Miami album on Verve with Flip Phillips....

i dont know those performances...but everything that i heard from him sounded like peter gunn...

i am not...

Ron Thorne · August-5th-2005, 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by frankiepop

i dont know those performances...but everything that i heard from (them) sounded like peter gunn...

Surely you jest. I've never heard Buddy Rich play straight eighth notes in that fashion, though I'm not a huge fan of his drumming, as originally stated.

Rich is out of the "Krupa school" of swing drumming, hardly connected with the "Mancini school".

rollhead · August-5th-2005, 11:09 AM

I am not getting it. I would rather go down to the street corner and listened to an air-hammer. But I am sure he had some great musicians playing with him.

If I want to hear a good swing drummer, I put on anything with Jo Jones on it.

walto · August-5th-2005, 11:34 AM

tell me why I should get the upcoming Mosaic Buddy Rich set

Because every 75th copy sold is said to have a check for $15K hidden in it somewhere.

frankiepop · August-5th-2005, 11:37 AM

he may be a student of krupa...but about every song still sounded like peter gunn....

graypencil · August-5th-2005, 02:17 PM

I'm having trouble wrapping my skull around this "Rich being out of the Krupa school" idea..

Buddy may probably be the best "technical" drummer to ever live ( far more so than Krupa IMO ) but musically, like Ron T alluded to, he left something to be desired often ..

Ron Thorne · August-5th-2005, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by graypencil

I'm having trouble wrapping my skull around this "Rich being out of the Krupa school" idea..

Buddy may probably be the best "technical" drummer to ever live ( far more so than Krupa IMO ) but musically, like Ron T alluded to, he left something to be desired often ..

The "Krupa School" comment was based upon some stylistic musical similarities, but mostly the way-over-the-top entertainer aspect which they had in common.

Rich was certainly a better techinical drummer than Krupa in my estimation, but he wouldn't be at the top of my list. Not ahead of Alan Dawson, Joe Morello or Steve Gadd, to name only a trio who could hold their own or blow Krupa off the stand any night of the week. That's one man's opinion, obviously.

johnagrandy · August-6th-2005, 01:09 AM

You might find the following to be more entertaining than the Mosaic collection:

http://www.carrothers.com/actone.htm

Additionally, it's free of charge.

Apparently, Mr. Rich was not a shellfish afficionado.

I wonder if they auctioned off any of those sweaters he used to wear on the
Tonight Show?

I got my color TV replaced the first time I saw one of those.

Didn't help.

graypencil · August-6th-2005, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Thorne

The "Krupa School" comment was based upon some stylistic musical similarities, but mostly the way-over-the-top entertainer aspect which they had in common.

Rich was certainly a better techinical drummer than Krupa in my estimation, but he wouldn't be at the top of my list. Not ahead of Alan Dawson, Joe Morello or Steve Gadd, to name only a trio who could hold their own or blow Krupa off the stand any night of the week. That's one man's opinion, obviously.

Aha ..now I see what you were driving at.

Also to the "better technician "group, I'd add Louie Bellson, Vinnie Coliauta, and Colin Bailey to your illustrious list ..

Chuck Nessa · August-6th-2005, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by graypencil

Aha ..now I see what you were driving at.

Also to the "better technician "group, I'd add Louie Bellson, Vinnie Coliauta, and Colin Bailey to your illustrious list ..

Well,,,,,,,,,,,,that's one list of caucasians.

Beyond technique, what about better "artists".

Why is your pencil is gray?

Lazaro Vega · August-6th-2005, 08:33 PM

And Krupa and Rich admired Chick Webb. That's where they got that big band drum concept from, who they emulated, and for an example of that man's artistry check out his big band's version of "Liza."

Ron Thorne · August-7th-2005, 02:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck Nessa

Well,,,,,,,,,,,,that's one list of caucasians.

Beyond technique, what about better "artists".

Why is your pencil is gray?

For me, this thread is (mostly) about Buddy Rich, so I'm not going to launch into yet another list of my favorite drummers here. They're not all Caucasians, I assure you.

Technique was brought up in the context of Rich being a pretty damned good technical drummer. I understand and appreciate the difference between technique and artistry, though they're often owned by the same individual -- not necessarily mutually exclusive.

Graypencil can and does speak for himself.

graypencil · August-7th-2005, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chuck Nessa

Well,,,,,,,,,,,,that's one list of caucasians.

Beyond technique, what about better "artists".

Why is your pencil is gray?

Chuck:

First off, my pencil is gray because I'm 67 and I've been a professional composer/arranger for close to 40 years. ( Even though these days I use a notation program like most guys )

Second, I really don't like the racist undertone to your wise-ass attempt at humor about a list of "caucasians". The thread was about drum technique stemming from the Rich/ Krupa school.

Thirdly, I was also a professional jazz drummer for many years ( check out the CV on my website right here on JC ) and my idols and mentors as a player were for the most part black: Max Roach, Philly Joe, Papa Jo, Blakey, Sid Catlett, Frank Butler, not to mention my all time favorite drummer: Tony Williams.

Of todays younger lions, I'll take Tain, Greg Hutchison, Lewis Nash, and Nasheet Waites for starters ..

Scott Yanow · August-8th-2005, 01:01 AM

Get Mercy, Mercy, Mercy and listen to Buddy Rich's two solos on "Channel One Suite." No other drummer could have played it.

Or go watch a film clip of Rich taking a solo. Consistently incredible.

Was he as innovative as Max Roach, Art Blakey, Elvin Jones or Tony Williams? No. Could he amaze those four with what he could do? Yes. Jones and Roach in particular praised him but they all knew. No one was on his level. His technical genius is unexplainable.

Is he my favorite? I actually prefer Baby Dodds!

Enforcer · August-8th-2005, 01:10 AM

Buddy Rich isn't my favorite drummer. I rarely listen to anything he recorded anymore.

But there is no argument to be had that any of the drummers I've seen listed could even remotely compare with his technique. He didn't have drum corps type technique, but among jazz drummers, nobody was even close. Not even in the same ballpark, even.

Gentle Giant · August-8th-2005, 10:31 AM

I like Buddy, although he almost made me give up the drums. When I first got a set and started taking lessons, my dad wasn't thrilled (it was my mom's idea, actually). He didn't want to hear rock and roll drumming in his house, so he told me if I was going to learn to play drums that I had to listen to "real" drummers. So he made me go out an buy a Buddy Rich record. I got the Best of Buddy Rich, and when I put it on my first impression was "What's this old farty big band shit?" I liked (and still do) his arrangement of Norwegian Wood, but the monster pieces, West Side Story Medley and Channel 1 Suite, had me thinking, "I'm never going to be able to do this, maybe I should give up the idea of playing drums."

After the Rich record was over, I threw on some J. Geils Band and said, "THIS I can do!!!" And so I stuck with the drums, and still am amazed when I see video of Buddy going crazy, and even though I can't play at anything approaching that level, I'm glad I didn't give up.

Lazaro Vega · August-8th-2005, 01:27 PM

It is kinda strange that in the Rich vs. Roach album when it comes time for both drummers to trade, Rich sticks almost completely to the snare (pun intended) while Roach travels the kit.

Enforcer · August-8th-2005, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lazaro Vega

It is kinda strange that in the Rich vs. Roach album when it comes time for both drummers to trade, Rich sticks almost completely to the snare (pun intended) while Roach travels the kit.

In technical terms, the snare is where the men are separated from the boys. It's the least forgiving piece of a drumset, where imperfections stick out like a sore thumb. Buddy had great stick control and could really play the hell out of the snare drum. Max played more "melodically" than Buddy. He often emulated the melodic phrasing of the head of the tune during his solos.

But it's worth mentioning that Buddy's ability to get around the drums was also tremendous. He didn't always choose to do it, but he traversed the kit with both right and left hands with great fluidity and economy of motion. Even cats like Cobham will sometimes clunk a rim on the way around the kit, but Buddy just nailed those movements with total authority. Really, it's kind of sick.

I'd rather listen to Max almost any day of the week because his playing is more interesting to my ears most of the time. He's got a looser feel, which I like in jazz, and his sound accompanies a small jazz group so well. But, again, for sheer technical execution, Rich is from another planet.

groover · August-8th-2005, 01:52 PM

Unless they've read Mel Torme's biography of Buddy, most people probably don't realize that Rich was a Vaudeville phenomenon as a small child. When he was older and wanted to play jazz, he wasn't taken seriously. Like most child stars, he was considered a has-been at the age when most musicians are beginning their careers. For all his technical ability, he had to work extra hard to prove himself capable of even playing swing with a band.

I think Buddy was actually ahead of his time, in some way. His intense style was well suited for big bands, but would've completely overwhelmed a small acoustic bop group. Yet he would have been well-matched against an array of electric instruments, and would have fit well with the most excessive fusion or prog-rock. Carl Palmer had nothing on Buddy!

Lazaro Vega · August-8th-2005, 02:59 PM

Yeah man,

Buddy Rich could hold a snare roll to such a fine degree it sounded like tearing silk, or fast tires on hot pavement.

For a good example of his "early" big band drumming those Tommy Dorsey Orchestra records on RCA Bluebird -- that collection of Sy Oliver material called "Yes Indeed!" -- includes "Swing High" and a handful of others that are exciting as hell, designed as showcases for Rich. It is fun to play those alongside, say, "Gone Gone Gone" by Philly Joe with Miles and Gil Evans and then Freddie Hubbard's "Thermo," Blakey's "A La Mode."

But back to the original thread idea: is the "Krupa meets Rich" album included in the Mosaic set? That's a killer. Roy and Diz. Rich was great at keeping a steady or slowly building rhythm in marathon jam sessions (as Bob Porter has pointed out in some liners to a JATP set) and the "Krupa Meets Rich" date catches some of that type of playing in the studio.