Proper boxes/doubles

[Felix]

I thought the Proper label deserved its own thread, since for me it has been quite important for the dissemination of important historical recordings in jazz (and other musics as well). Since their arrival, I've seen JSP and Naxos also taking up jazz reissues at low-to-budget prices. They also give attention to the presentation (their booklets are always well-informed and give extensive information) and sound.

I currently own about 15 of these little boxes, and they certainly contain most of the essential recordings for the artists in question and for the periods covered. One of their advantages is they can cover recording sessions from different labels (sometimes quite obscure), giving a more complete vision of a musician's career. My favorites so far:

-Coleman Hawkins: The Bebop Years (1939-1949). A fascinating view into Hawkins' most creative period, with countless masters a sidemen.

-The Fats Navarro Story (1945-1950). The most complete (and, sadly, career-spanning) compilation under Navarro's name, covering his debut with Billy Eckstine, as well as his classic sessions with Sonny Stitt and Tadd Dameron, both on Savoy and Blue Note.

-The Wardell Gray Story (1945-1952). That a box is available under Gray's name is reason enough to acquire this set, which, as in Navarro's case, covers almost his entire career, including classic recordings like "The Chase" (with Dexter Gordon) and "Twisted".

-Lennie Tristano: Intuition (1945-1952). From his obscure debut as a sideman with Emmett Carls' band to trio and band recordings (featuring Lee Konitz and Warne Marsh). This one might have had too many alternate takes (almost absent in the series normally), and I'd have liked them to include "Descent Into the Maelstrom", which I haven't been able to find anywhere.

-Art Tatum: Piano Grand Master (1932-1951). The title says it all. The set is mostly solo recordings, with most of the amazing 1944 trio tracks included (with Tiny Grimes and Slam Stewart).

-The Dizzy Gillespie Story (1937-1950). Includes sideman appearances with Teddy Hill, Lionel Hampton, Lucky Millinder, plus the recordings with Bird, and with his own big band.

-Stan Getz: The Sound (1946-1952). A fascinating look at young Getz, with the essential Prestige and Roost recordings, featuring Jimmy Raney, Al Haig, Horace Silver, ...

-Bud Powell: Tempus Fugue-It (1944-1950). Most of Bud's early recordings, before his health would interfere with some of his performances.

[Felix]

PS: I've been on their website (www.propermusic.com) and discovered they just released what looks like a killer Shorty Rogers box.

[Xavier]

Warning: I picked up "Hitting On All Six: The History of Jazz Guitar" and although the music and selections are good, generally the sound is not. Often muddy sound, even from some of the big name guitarists. It's a shame. The other sets I got are fine (Hawkins & Bechet).

[groover]

I'm a big fan of the Proper boxes, though they have their issues. The biggest seems to be the mastering, as many people complain about the sound on some of them. They may not always be working from the best available masters, but I wouldn't criticize the sound unless I knew for sure that a better mastered version was available. Any fan of of classic jazz and blues has to have a higher tolerance for noise and/or murkiness than the average contemporary listener.

If the master is noisy, it's a judgement call as to how much noise you can eliminate before you end up losing clarity. A good audio engineer should be able to find the optimum cutoff point. The Propers usually sound clean, but compressed, so they may be a little heavy-handed with the noise reduction.

The other issue with them is that they take an inclusive approach in gathering obscure sideman appearances by each artist. Most of the boxes include some cuts that are only very marginally interesting to a fan of the featured artist. This prevents most of their collections from hitting the 5-star masterpiece mark, where it's totally compelling listening from start to finish.

Nevertheless, they offer an inexpensive way to own and hear the early and more obscure efforts of many classic artists, so I'll continue to collect them.

[Xavier]

Hey, I'm enjoying the Proper boxes I have, including the guitar box. But there is quite a sound quality difference between the Hawkins/Bechet boxes and the Hitting On All Six guitar box. I agree it's probably a question of what masters they could get.

[Al in NYC]

In addition to many of those named above I LOVE my Proper Lester Young box.

Another good one for fans of early R&B and its jazz influences is The Big Horn box, which contains a number of sides that are otherwise impossible to find.

[frankiepop]

the lester young box is incredible which may be my favorite. i only own a few boxes but of those i also like coltrane at the vanguard.

[Clay Fink]

These boxes are of suspect legality. I've never been clear if they do their own mastering, instead taking the recodings from other commercially available, legit recordings. I may be wrong, but I've always looked at these with suspicion. The JSPs may be a bit more legit (the Armstrong box, for example), but I'm not sure about those either. Definitive looks a little suspect too.

These boxes are cheap, though, saving you a lot compared to Mosaic, Bear Family, Yazoo, Jazz Oracle and Revenant reissues. I do like Document records and the Chronological Classics series. They seem to do their own remastering, though in the case of Classics, they sometimes are pretty poor.

[Felix]

Doesn't that have something to do with European copyright laws (50-year-old recordings can be reissued by almost anybody)? I don't know the intricacies, but anyway, they certainly improved a lot in sound since their first productions (I think the guitar box mentioned above was among their first titles released).

[Al in NYC]

That's exactly it. That's why the cut-off for material in the boxes is all 50 years before the year of their issue. These recordings are all in the public domain in Europe and under international copyright agreements, so there is really no question of legality.

[Gary Sisco]

Free trade, baby. They asked for it; they got it. American copyright laws don't apply elsewhere, thank goodness.

But what I meant to say was thanks, because I've long wanted to own those Tatum trios with Grimes and Stewart, which I've had for years but only on old cassette I made of a friend's 10" lp. It's ordered.

[Nate Dorward]

Originally Posted by Al in NYC

That's exactly it. That's why the cut-off for material in the boxes is all 50 years before the year of their issue. These recordings are all in the public domain in Europe and under international copyright agreements, so there is really no question of legality.

The recordings may be more than 50 years old, but since they make use of other company's recent remasterings rather than doing their own job, it's a bit more complex than that. The question, in any case, isn't whether what they do is legally permitted, but whether it's ethical.

[Clay Fink]

Originally Posted by Nate Dorward

The recordings may be more than 50 years old, but since they make use of other company's recent remasterings rather than doing their own job, it's a bit more complex than that. The question, in any case, isn't whether what they do is legally permitted, but whether it's ethical.

I think that it is clearly unethical to use as sources digital recordings that have been transferred and mastered by somebody else. That's why I'm suspicious if I see no credits for the owners of the 78s used for the remastering or for the engineering.

[stereojack]

Originally Posted by Clay Fink

I think that it is clearly unethical to use as sources digital recordings that have been transferred and mastered by somebody else. That's why I'm suspicious if I see no credits for the owners of the 78s used for the remastering or for the engineering.

I've only heard several Proper sets, the Western Swing and Hillbilly Boogie collections, since these contained a considerable amount of material I didn't already have. The sound varies considerably from track to track. The sources seem to be LP's from the 1970's, from labels like Old-Timey, Rambler, String, Old Homestead, etc, not original 78's. Having owned those LP's for some years, I'm familiar with how they sound, and the Proper sound is too similar for coincidence. Proper will help themselves to whatever is available elsewhere. If the source is Mosaic, Bear Family, or any other quality reissue label, then the sound will be good. If they have to go back to earlier reissues, many of which were bootlegs of varying quality, then the sound will reflect the source. The only attractive aspect to Proper is the price.

[Clay Fink]

Good to see you here, Jack. You need to chime in more. Any idea if these guys actually take their sources from, say, Mosaic or Revenant?

[Mike Schwartz]

Originally Posted by stereojack

I've only heard several Proper sets, the Western Swing and Hillbilly Boogie collections, since these contained a considerable amount of material I didn't already have. The sound varies considerably from track to track. The sources seem to be LP's from the 1970's, from labels like Old-Timey, Rambler, String, Old Homestead, etc, not original 78's. Having owned those LP's for some years, I'm familiar with how they sound, and the Proper sound is too similar for coincidence. Proper will help themselves to whatever is available elsewhere. If the source is Mosaic, Bear Family, or any other quality reissue label, then the sound will be good. If they have to go back to earlier reissues, many of which were bootlegs of varying quality, then the sound will reflect the source. The only attractive aspect to Proper is the price.

My impressions would pretty much be in agreement with this post.
Excellent source material on those few I've experienced, with no attempt to remaster or 'modernize' the sound quality, and right on about the pricing comment.

[stereojack]

Originally Posted by Clay Fink

Good to see you here, Jack. You need to chime in more. Any idea if these guys actually take their sources from, say, Mosaic or Revenant?

I believe that any available release is fair game for these guys, the above labels included.

I joined a couple of years ago, but only recently have begun lurking again.

[Gary Sisco]

Talking ethics in record company world is hilarious. You guys can't be serious. There's never been a more unethical business than the recording industry.

Public domain after 50 years. The idea of copyrighting a remaster is hilarious in itself (not to say that it might not one day fly in the US but so do monkeys, here, where anything will fly if it increases a profit margin).

A global economy is what they want (and what they would have gotten anyway as capitalism itself globalizes whether anyone likes it or not). A global economy increasingly renders national (any nation) law irrelevant since trade is transnational.

I'll never shed a tear for the poor recording industry or lose any sleep, either. From the artists' point of view, the US national economy has been selling bootlegs for years -- and of stuff that isn't public domain. Indeed, it's as much a bootleg business as a legit business and always has been.

Crocodile tears to go along with their payola that's increasingly ruined American popular music.

What'll be funnier to me is the handwringing that's going to start up -- very soon -- when the 50s/60s gravy train that's been paying their bills for so long comes to an end because the recordings enter public domain in Europe.

Karma may not be instant but it does come around, eventually, to bite those on the ass whose asses are in need of biting.

And no one has ever deserved a biting more than the record industry. I'll hold myself to their lofty "ethical" and legal standards 100% beginning the day after they hold themselves to the same standards by 1% and not until.

[stereojack]

Originally Posted by Gary Sisco

I'll never shed a tear for the poor recording industry or lose any sleep, either. From the artists' point of view, the US national economy has been selling bootlegs for years -- and of stuff that isn't public domain. Indeed, it's as much a bootleg business as a legit business and always has been.

You're painting with pretty broad strokes here, Gary. The record industry includes the large companies with the unscrupulous business practices to which you make reference, AND the small companies which are run by people who actually love music. Would you say "up yours" to all of them? Some of the smaller companies like Yazoo, Bear Family, Uptown, Ace, Mosaic, Hep, etc that go to great lengths to provide quality products are being undermined by companies like Proper, Classics, et al, who operate "legally" but don't give a shit about the quality of the product they sell, as long as they can provide an inexpensive product to the consumer, many of whom cannot differentiate between good and bad sound. Knowing that their efforts will be rewarded by outright copying of their remastering work has actually deterred a number of reissue producers from going ahead with worthwhile projects, knowing that one of the "public domain" labels will most likely steal their efforts and undercut them in price. Of course Proper can sell their releases cheaper - somebody else paid the bills to make them sound good.

The whole "public domain" issue is double edged - yes, it does free up a lot of classic material from the control of the large record companies, but it also opens the door for shoddy companies like Proper.

[Al in NYC]

Originally Posted by stereojack

The only attractive aspect to Proper is the price.

Well, that and making a significant amount of otherwise unavailable material available.

All in one place too. And given the coverage of their notes, which are far from perfect but also superior to much of the material from major (and even independent) labels, I don't think one could really fully call Proper "shoddy." Certainly much less so than the '70's LP issues that seem to make up the bulk of their sound sources.

[Clay Fink]

I think that the work of engineers/enthusiasts like Jack Towers, J. R. T. Davis, Malcom Addy, even Peter Pfister, is substantial and has made a lot of work available that wouldn't have been if not for their efforts. Maybe their work does deserve some protection. I've passed on a lot of the Proper/Definitive releases just not to encourage them. I've got a lot of the Classics stuff, but I've stopped bying those too.

Anyone know about the provenance of FreshSounds' reissues?

[Nate Dorward]

Originally Posted by Clay Fink

Anyone know about the provenance of FreshSounds' reissues?

I gather often straight off the original vinyl.

[Xavier]

I wouldn't doubt that some of the cuts are straight off the vinyl, in the Guitar Box the sound is not good for some of the name guitarists and fairly good on others. There's no documentation concerning who is in the various bands etc. It just lists track title, guitarist, and year. That's it. With all the drawbacks it still is an interesting set - in that the musician choices and track choices are thoughtful, and the sound is fairly good on some tracks - especially considering the price.

[groover]

Originally Posted by Clay Fink

I think that the work of engineers/enthusiasts like Jack Towers, J. R. T. Davis, Malcom Addy, even Peter Pfister, is substantial and has made a lot of work available that wouldn't have been if not for their efforts. Maybe their work does deserve some protection. I've passed on a lot of the Proper/Definitive releases just not to encourage them. I've got a lot of the Classics stuff, but I've stopped bying those too.

You've succeeded in making me feel guilty about collecting Proper boxes, Fink. Believe me, I previously had no idea that what I was doing was almost as evil as an addict supporting terrorists by buying illegal drugs. There are just a few more sets I've got to have, and then, I swear, I'll never do it again!

[Clay Fink]

Originally Posted by groover

You've succeeded in making me feel guilty about collecting Proper boxes, Fink. Believe me, I previously had no idea that what I was doing was almost as evil as an addict supporting terrorists by buying illegal drugs. There are just a few more sets I've got to have, and then, I swear, I'll never do it again!

Don't beat yourself up, man. You just have to admit your powerlessness over Proper Boxes, then move on with your life.

FWIW: I was listening to some audio samples on EMusic of the Xanadu reissues and you could hear the surface noise from the LPs they were taken from. Don't know if those reissues are "legal" either.

[John L]

Originally Posted by Clay Fink

Good to see you here, Jack. You need to chime in more. Any idea if these guys actually take their sources from, say, Mosaic or Revenant?

Yes, there is strong evidence to this effect. There are also some serious ethical issues here (sorry, Gary), particularly with what JSP has been doing recently. JSP used to be an ethical label, but has recently thrown in the towel and become the number 1 reason why many American record labels no longer want to invest in remastering and making available music from their vaults.

Consider this: Mosaic put a significant investment in their Bunny Berigan set. They tracked down lots of extremely rare material that featured Berigan as a sideman even more than a leader. In addition to the music, it amounts to a history lesson in early jazz. Only months after the Mosaic set was released, JSP took all of the master takes from this set, didn't even bother to change the track order, and released it as a 5-disc set for $30.

Revenant made a huge investment into finding the best possible source material and remastering Charley Patton into sound that was incomparably better to what came earlier. JSP immediately stole these remasters and put out a competing budget set.

Chuck Nessa's early Charlie Mingus set has met the same fate.

If this continues, a lot of great music hidden in the vaults is just never going to see the light of day. That already includes music from the 1950s and will soon affect the 60s as well.

[Felix]

The thing is, if you already spend a lot of money on Cds, and are not a millionaire, Mosaic and Revenant sets are pretty much out of the question. Same with most boxes put out by the majors (Miles' Columbia boxes aren't exactly cheap). Proper and JSP offer a way to acquire historical material that's more accessible (and I used to sell a lot of those little things myself). If you're a fan of the musician in question, you'll save the money to pick up one, maybe two of the bigger sets (I own the Revenant Ayler box), but I wouldn't pay that much money for a Bunny Berigan set. Naxos made a similar move in classical music (and they also have a pretty good historical jazz selection), and it wasn't considered a very ethical label to begin with, but it had a huge impact on the price of CDs. For the average consumer, that's not negligable. If the majors did more box sets like the Coltrane Quartet one (superb box, low price), those less ethical labels would have no reason to exist. In the meantime, I will continue purchasing Proper and JSP collections as long as they put out great stuff at budget price.

[Clay Fink]

Naxos produces a lot of new recordings by (sometimes excellent) players. Their jazz series was a very good one and was curated by Mike Nock. I wouldn't put Naxos in the same class as Proper/JSP/Definitive. It all comes down to being an ethical consumer. Make fun of me if you like, but I make an effort to see where what I buy comes from, be it food, clothing, illegal drugs, weaponry, sex toys, prostitutes, cigars, garden implements, mulch, replacement weed wacker thingies, bikes, clothespins, whatever.

I've been waiting for a Delmore Brothers retrospective for years and I was tempted by the Proper box. I'll just keep hoping that Bear Family takes it on. In the meantime I'll make do with my Ace, County and Old Homstead CDs and LPs.

FWIW, legit reissues are not always pricey; OJC, Blue Note, Jazz Oracle, Columbia stuff can be had on the web pretty affordably.

[Xavier]

Naxos reissues music? Everything I've ever heard, with classical or jazz, appears to be a new recording. Lots of European jazz and classical recordings by East European and Russian, Ukrainian etc. orchestras. I have a lot of Naxos jazz and Classical recordings and as far as I can see none of them are reissues.

[gnhrtg]

Originally Posted by Xavier

Naxos reissues music?

Naxos historical

They work with pretty highly esteemed sound engineers.