New Noise - No Fun and other Nonsense

[letchhausen]

I'm starting this to engender a discussion about this new noise, post-industrial whatsis going on. I start out with Wolf Eyes and Hair Police but will add my Hive Mind/Misenlian contrast soon and hopefully get some talk about Skaters, Yellow Swans, Hototogisu etc.

I recently listened to Wolf Eyes' "Dead Hills and am torn about it.
While not bad, I just can't get the image of a bad horror movie soundtrack out of my mind when I listen to this. Sorta like a cheap funhouse at Halloween. Perhaps that's the point and I'm wanting more than the distorted mirror images offer. The thing is that there are moments in Wolf Eyes music that give me that "more" that I want but often they get undercut by some self-conscious scary pretension. The best horror is often implied rather than overt and that's where I feel like patting these guys on the head and saying, "You guys are so cute wif your wittle masks on, wuzza wuzza wooo!" and they'd run back to the Wolf Eyes tree house with their pillow cases full of candy. These moments tend to become the ones with vocals that hark back to Drunks with Guns or No Trend though not as articulate as the latter nor as believable as the former. The music however doesn't bear this. Yet on this CD there's a track with this swinging sailor beat that reminds me of Foetus and the rhythm manages to gird the piece in a way that keeps its overt scarisms intact without impinging too much on the suspension of disbelief.

This is something that doesn't happen on Hair Police's "Constantly Terrified" where the whole thing becomes too ridiculous to even listen to. Perhaps if I were a 13 yr old punk rocker who's main cultural referents were Freddy from the "Nightmare on Elm Street" movies or Jason from the "Halloween" movies, but beyond that I can only say that playing Dungeons and Dragons into your twenties might not make a believable atmosphere for good music. Once again though we have a CD like Hair Police's "Drawn Dead" where they manage to control the overtness and create a textural atmosphere that maintains its edge. So Hair Police deliver the same mixed bag of results as Wolf Eyes that has me interested but not buying it.

The Whitehouse influence is huge and I still feel that SPK, Throbbing Gristle, and plenty of others managed to cover this same terrain much more effectively back in the eighties. However I don't feel that this is any reason to deny these guys the right to recover that language and work the materials into something new. When it works with these groups, and it does, I hear something new happening and so I'll continue to listen and keep an ear to the pulse.

I was discussing with some friends recently that the other difference between the new and the old is the intellectual connection to the sounds. While the interest in darker sounds provides a connection, groups like SPK, TG etc were grounded in philosophy, the occult, psychology and the history of control, crime etc. The records often came with information on their interests and the Re/Search Industrial Culture Handbook was a fascinating insight into these groups working ideas. The new kids seem cartoon scary at best and anti-intellectual at worst and sometimes its the rockist attitude that I think keeps them down, keeps them from really expanding their vocabulary outward to create not just density but density with power. Pumping your fist to AC/DC or Cradle of Filth may make you popular with a certain set but I think that shrugging off such stances will be necessary to take the music to the next level. Merzbow is a good example of someone whose intellectual pursuits fed the creativity to blow the roof off the industrial house. I don't have any delusions that Hair Police's next CD will be a soundtrack for Hegel's "Phenomology of Spirit" or even Derrida's "Of Grammatology" but hopefully, situations like hangin' with Braxton and playing Victoriaville will bring these artist into contact with a broader spectrum of musicians that will influence them to throw off the shackles of the obvious and embrace the dark side of ambiguity.

[sonic1]

I am glad to see you start this thread. I don't have anything interesting to add right now, except that I am a new big fan of wolf eyes. And despite his ever so prolific output, I love the cheapness of Merzbow.

I also want to add that Haino should be discussed here. Particularly his solo guitar work, which for me is his most interesting work-and also his solo other instruments stuff.

I like his collaborations with other people, but he inevitably becomes something, as Abbey once put it, more wanky.

I understand that sentiment, and that is why I prefer his solo work. Unfettered Keiji Haino.

[bostontricky]

Is this where I get to complain about the fucking cicadas buzzing outside in my trees? I know this kind of falls into an acoustic non-improv insect-generated kind of sound, but feel it needs to be addressed somewhere. (Personally, I prefer Haino to the cicadas.)

Maybe Eugene Chadborne can help.

[letchhausen]

Originally Posted by bostontricky

Is this where I get to complain about the fucking cicadas buzzing outside in my trees? I know this kind of falls into an acoustic non-improv insect-generated kind of sound, but feel it needs to be addressed somewhere. (Personally, I prefer Haino to the cicadas.)

Maybe Eugene Chadborne can help.

Shouldn't be recording that and processing it on your PC and getting some CD's out? That would be pretty cool.....Graeme Revell of SPK did an insect record many years ago but the all out noise onslaught of cicadas in full swing could be right up there with Merzbow......


Sonic,

Have you heard the Haino hurdy-gurdy records? Those are pretty interesting as well. I have a ton of his stuff and during the 90's I felt the the Japanese were really the ones kicking out some new jams as Boredoms, Haina, Otomo Yoshihide, Merzbow, Masonna, High-Rise, Hijokaidan etc etc were really taking massive slabs of high volume sound and reconfiguring it's uses......while America was lost in a buncha rock bands trying to be the next Nirvana......

[Jon Abbey]

I don't have time to post on this thread right now, but glad you started it, I'll post when I can.

[Douglas]

Originally Posted by letchhausen

the all out noise onslaught of cicadas in full swing could be right up there with Merzbow......

You know, when I arrived in Tokyo this summer a similar association struck me. As I was coming to my senses from a jetlagged induced collapse, the noise outside my window was so loud, so insistent that initially I could only comprehend it in terms of assuming that it must be electrical. Once I'd finally put the pieces together, I could quite conceive that they may have served as an inspiration for Merzbow.

[sonic1]

Sonic,

Have you heard the Haino hurdy-gurdy records? Those are pretty interesting as well. I have a ton of his stuff and during the 90's I felt the the Japanese were really the ones kicking out some new jams as Boredoms, Haina, Otomo Yoshihide, Merzbow, Masonna, High-Rise, Hijokaidan etc etc were really taking massive slabs of high volume sound and reconfiguring it's uses......while America was lost in a buncha rock bands trying to be the next Nirvana......

Yes. I have about 15 haino albums now. My introduction was I Said, This Is the Son of Nihilism. I have many of the Fushitsusha recordings also. I have not heard the Nijiumu, nor the Vajra or Lost Aaraaff albums. But I am curious to find them.

Hijokaidan recordings are hard to find it seems, though I could look harder. It seems every time I have looked I only find cuts on compilations. Plus, I think the magic of Hijokaidan was probably seeing them live; total mahem.

The japanese noisy aesthetic is more akin to what I like in music. I couldn't even compare those bands to anyone else, but agree with your general sentiment.

The Boredoms seems to be a little bit more "jammy" then the rest, especially these days. I think again, better seen live. Lately some of their stuff has been much like hippie drum circles or something. Yuck.

I am sure Abbey has a lot to say here. He supplied me with a few Haino albums I needed.

[letchhausen]

Originally Posted by sonic1

The japanese noisy aesthetic is more akin to what I like in music. I couldn't even compare those bands to anyone else, but agree with your general sentiment.

The Boredoms seems to be a little bit more "jammy" then the rest, especially these days. I think again, better seen live. Lately some of their stuff has been much like hippie drum circles or something. Yuck.

The Haino Nijiumu that I have is atmospheric stuff, nice but not extremely compelling. I love Fushitsusha, I have the Haino and the Hijokaidan box sets which have very nice overviews of their careers. Very interesting to hear so many different contexts.

I love the Boredoms but that last CD sucked. Of their recent stuff (not so recent at this point) I really love both "Vision Creation Newsun" and "SuperRoots 7" and consider them both masterpieces. I think that their cut-up noise distorto take on krautrock (the motorik beat that propels those two recordings) is very inspired. I don't consider the recordings too jammy though that's the direction that their live show has gone for a long time. I saw them in '94 or '95 and I actually preferred that live set. I haven't seen the recent incarnation but friends have said that it's not dis-similar to what they were doing in '99 or '00. I do consider their recorded output to be pretty up and down but I don't think that everything that Haino or Kawabata put out is brilliant either. A penchant most of these guys have for releasing a huge amount of material means that you tend to get some episodes of "working out the process" on the way to some utterly great record. And then there's the Rallizes Denudes scenario where it's all bootlegs or semi-legit releases and rereleases.......I've got two ten CD box sets by them and there's plenty more if I had the time and the $$$ for it. Of course Merzbow and the rest could easily keep us all broke.....

And yes, there's a particular aesthetic and approach by these guys that is its own thing. A dark need for overexpression and yet its all delivered without the overt histrionics that their counterparts in other parts of the world engage in. And that blistering sonic overload may be misconstrued by some as histrionics but it's much more profound than that. Their drama isn't "mere" by any stretch of the imagination......

[Jon Abbey]

such huge topics, I'm not really sure where to jump in.

I will say that while I never really listened to much old-school industrial, the best of the No Fun crew mixes those kinds of aesthetics with much more sophisticated electronic use. for instance, the solo Aaron Dilloway set I saw live was amazing, not too far from where Kevin Drumm is now.

Originally Posted by letchhausen

hopefully, situations like hangin' with Braxton and playing Victoriaville will bring these artists into contact with a broader spectrum of musicians that will influence them to throw off the shackles of the obvious and embrace the dark side of ambiguity.

really? if anything, I think Braxton's the one who could use a push out of his area at this point. Greh (Hive Mind) is coming down for the first night of ErstQuake, in between Massachusetts shows, mostly to see the Colley/Lescalleet set, I think.

[sonic1]

I am not totally sure what you mean by "industrial". That term is used for a lot of things.

By industrial do you mean bands like Front 242, Alien Sex Fiend ,etc. or more along the lines of Throbbing Gristle and Einstürzende Neubauten?

[Jon Abbey]

Originally Posted by sonic1

By industrial do you mean bands like Front 242, Alien Sex Fiend ,etc. or more along the lines of Throbbing Gristle and Einstürzende Neubauten?

I think Letch was talking about (and in the past has talked about) more the second pair above, which is what I was referencing.

but I never spent much time investigating most of this area, Throbbing Gristle and Maurizio Bianchi being a couple of exceptions. I don't think I've ever heard a second of Front 242 or Alien Sex Fiend...

[sonic1]

Originally Posted by Jon Abbey

I think Letch was talking about (and in the past has talked about) more the second pair above, which is what I was referencing.

but I never spent much time investigating most of this area, Throbbing Gristle and Maurizio Bianchi being a couple of exceptions. I don't think I've ever heard a second of Front 242 or Alien Sex Fiend...

I had one Front 242 album. Pretty boring. Never heard much else of that stuff, except what they played on the radio (ministry, et al). Front 242 sounds like a Mad Max soundtrack.

TG on the other hand, yes. As well as Nurse With Wound. Though by today's noise standards, these albums don't draw as much of my attention.

I have never heard really early Otomo Yoshihide, at least I don't think I have. Should I look out for something? Or do you all mean the Ground Zero stuf?

[Jon Abbey]

NWW I was close to a completist on until a couple of years ago, I don't consider them industrial or noise, kind of their own genre.

[letchhausen]

Originally Posted by Jon Abbey

such huge topics, I'm not really sure where to jump in.

I will say that while I never really listened to much old-school industrial, the best of the No Fun crew mixes those kinds of aesthetics with much more sophisticated electronic use. for instance, the solo Aaron Dilloway set I saw live was amazing, not too far from where Kevin Drumm is now.

really? if anything, I think Braxton's the one who could use a push out of his area at this point. Greh (Hive Mind) is coming down for the first night of ErstQuake, in between Massachusetts shows, mostly to see the Colley/Lescalleet set, I think.

I can't speak to the live sets but from the recorded Dilloway output perhaps you should start listening to old school industrial if you consider these guys shenanigans "sophisticated". Perhaps live its another thing entirely, but I don't hear that much different from what was going on in the 80's especially the Whitehouse stuff from the early to mid 80's.
Hive Mind I find a different sort of animal but again, there is a fair amount of similarity from stuff I've heard before, but his stuff I find more sophisticated than the others. More on him later.......

I don't think my point was to say that Braxton doesn't need a push, which he does, just that perhaps if the No Fun crew hangs with a more sophisticated crowd their music will develop away from the thrashy screaming pseudo-horror show to something with a little more depth than Dungeons and Dragon's oriented cartoon skull stuff. Perhaps not, and like I said, I find some interesting sounds there but time will tell whether these guys will develop into musical artists or just y'know "fun" bands for the punk kids who like to say, "look at me, I'm so cool, I listen to NOISE!" Which is fine, those people need their scene but I don't find that very interesting and usually the people that do are those who are from that scene or older people trying to retain youth cred. Which I meet occasionally and they kinda freak me out because it's like punk meant something to them 20 years ago that they're afraid to outgrow. Weird.

So perhaps the best thing would be for Braxton to quit his job and go on tour with these guys then we'd see what would happen in the primordial free noise soup! He could get Wolf Eyes to do the music for his next opera then......

The term Industrial I use to describe the underground culture in the late 70's to the 80's that had to do with certain aesthetics I describe above. They're particular take was described by TG as "sounding like" industry in its sounds but I think with Nurse with Wound and Current 93 the critique was of art and sound movements of the industrial society, so I tend to put them together. And many of these people collabarated together as well. I would also put Einsturzende Neubauten and others in here as well.
Front 242, Skinny Puppy, Ministry, Portion Control etc were all an outgrowth of the surface of these sounds in the service of beat music which to my mind defeated the point of creating music away from the structure of rock music. I think I wanted something "past" punk or thrash and in the early 80's found it in industrial. I found it incredibly retro to take it to beats after an era of disco sucks. So very lame, but it way superceded the popularity of the others which of course is the case since shit floats......

For Otomo's early stuff I was thinking of Ground Zero's "Revolutionary Pekinese Opera" and the "Night of the Sampling Virus" CD's......which are both really great........

[Sergio Zamora]

I've often called Throbbing Gristle, Nurse With Wounds, perhaps Cab Voltaire, et al Industrial Music or just Industrial, while I call Ministry, NIN, Skinny Puppy, Pigface, Front 242, Ethyl Meatplow, etc Industrial Rock.

It's kind of a lame way to differentiate them, but it works for me. Maybe first and second generation industrial might be better. Though, of course, if we do that, we might have to call the Italian futurists with their intonarumori the first industrial musicians.

[letchhausen]

Originally Posted by Jon Abbey

I will say that while I never really listened to much old-school industrial, the best of the No Fun crew mixes those kinds of aesthetics with much more sophisticated electronic use. for instance, the solo Aaron Dilloway set I saw live was amazing, not too far from where Kevin Drumm is now.

I reread this Jon, and realized that I had glossed over your qualifiers in my reply above. You are obviously speaking of live and "best" instances/artists. I wanted to express that having not seen any of these guys live (unfortunately I had to work the night of the recent Dilloway show here) and that while I have a handful of CD's from these guys I don't have a comprehensive overview of their work so there could be more sophisticated works out there.
From what I've heard, I'm interested and so my thoughts on starting this thread are to generate other's perspectives and discussion perhaps on specific works if people are so inclined.

And where do Skaters and Yellow Swans fit into this? I almost feel that these guys, along with probably Hive Mind, Double Leopards, Hototogisu etc almost constitute a separate group in that their concerns are more ummm not ambient, but pure electonic washes, without the structural elements that I'm hearing in Wolf Eyes or Hair Police and definitely without the overt dramatic elements (screaming etc). The soundscape overload crew.

Sergio,

Yeah, I used to call those others Industrial dance to seperate them out. I hated that time when it came because if people asked what I was listening to and I said "Industrial", they would mention the dance bands and that killed me. To go for the Whitehouse De Sade take, I would then say "No, the other stuff, the noise soundtrack to butcher people to." This would usually make the distinction I wanted. And often end the conversation. Which was Sweet.

[Jon Abbey]

Originally Posted by letchhausen

I reread this Jon, and realized that I had glossed over your qualifiers in my reply above. You are obviously speaking of live and "best" instances/artists. I wanted to express that having not seen any of these guys live (unfortunately I had to work the night of the recent Dilloway show here) and that while I have a handful of CD's from these guys I don't have a comprehensive overview of their work so there could be more sophisticated works out there.
From what I've heard, I'm interested and so my thoughts on starting this thread are to generate other's perspectives and discussion perhaps on specific works if people are so inclined.

yeah, that's more what I was trying to get at, thanks. the Double Leopards live set I saw recently was impressive in their use of "contemporary" electronics, something I never ever see/hear in the downtown jazz scene. it's where those areas intersect (the No Fun crew and the area that I work in) that interests me personally.

And where do Skaters and Yellow Swans fit into this? I almost feel that these guys, along with probably Hive Mind, Double Leopards, Hototogisu etc almost constitute a separate group in that their concerns are more ummm not ambient, but pure electonic washes, without the structural elements that I'm hearing in Wolf Eyes or Hair Police and definitely without the overt dramatic elements (screaming etc). The soundscape overload crew.

yeah, it's almost more derived from post-rock guitar feedback soundscapes than anything else. not a fan of the Skaters, haven't heard Yellow Swans.

one West Coast combo I like a lot, though, is GOD, the duo of Bryan Eubanks and Leif Erik Sundstrom from Portland (Eubanks is moving to NY this weekend, maybe doing some sound work at the Quake). not crazy about the earlier stuff I've heard, but the new one, on Jyrk/Gameboy/Little Enjoyer, is exciting, interesting music, a little like Voice Crack, a little like the Tokyo electronic stuff, but from their own direction. obviously not as refined as those guys, but well worth hearing.

[sonic1]

Cool. I just ordered that one a few days ago from erstdisk, to check out GOD. Mostly because it was 8 bucks.

[lukaz]

As for cicadas influence on noise coming out from Japan- some years ago i did an interview with Haco when she performed w Hoahio (back then a duo- Sachiko M has just left the band) and asked her pretty obvious question bout noise and got pretty obvious answer- overload of information in japan's metropolis and cicadas.

As for Front 242, Nitzer Ebb, Front Line Assembly, etc ... i think back then they were considered as EBM (if we speak thru genres)- electro body music. If anyone was into this bands i recommend grabbing records by now defunct slovenian band BORGHESIA, which were big in this field of music (i think they recorded many records for belgian label Play it again Sam). They were the only thing that hit also outsiode Shitenia along w Laibach ...

[sonic1]

Originally Posted by lukaz

As for cicadas influence on noise coming out from Japan- some years ago i did an interview with Haco when she performed w Hoahio (back then a duo- Sachiko M has just left the band) and asked her pretty obvious question bout noise and got pretty obvious answer- overload of information in japan's metropolis and cicadas.

As for Front 242, Nitzer Ebb, Front Line Assembly, etc ... i think back then they were considered as EBM (if we speak thru genres)- electro body music. If anyone was into this bands i recommend grabbing records by now defunct slovenian band BORGHESIA, which were big in this field of music (i think they recorded many records for belgian label Play it again Sam). They were the only thing that hit also outsiode Shitenia along w Laibach ...

Wow, I forgot about those guys (Nitzer Ebb and FLA). I really don't remember much about them other than I had some recordings. I must not have been that enthralled with them, but who knows...a lot of my tastes have changed. Maybe I'll dig em now.

[Gary Sisco]

I spent the 80s learning the history of reggae (which required familiarity with hundreds of records and dozens of comps from friends on top) so know nothing about industrial. I have been looking out of curiosity into the recent noise stuff, though. Wolf Eyes "Burned Mind" was my first experience and I like it alright. I can understand the crits above. I'd describe it as noise with a strong undertow of hardcore. It's a keeper, anyway, for me.

My next stop was Hair Police "Constantly Terrified" (perhaps my least favorite record title) which I thought on first listen to be too much like "Burned Mind." Further listening revealed its differences and I liked it more, but still think "Burned Mind" a superior record, and I play it more.

Of the records mentioned already on this thread (most of which I'm unfamiliar with, being an utter newbie) my favorite by far is Hive Mind "Sand Beast," which I really like a lot and have given numerous plays.

I also quite like the GOD CD mentioned by Jon above, which I've only heard once but liked. I heard it as having aspects of both noise and eai and didn't know quite where to place it, not having a large context of noise to compare it with, yet. I like the CD, though,and will look into them more closely over time.

[Salvador Dali Lama]

man i love the sound of cicadas. its almost deafening right now. even inside the house, right now, in the city, loud as hell. i like to go outside and just listen to them and tree frogs and traffic and whatever other noises are going on.

thats one good thing about this city, you can live in an urban environment and still get a fucking onslaught of insect and animal sounds all night.

[letchhausen]

Originally Posted by Gary Sisco

Of the records mentioned already on this thread (most of which I'm unfamiliar with, being an utter newbie) my favorite by far is Hive Mind "Sand Beast," which I really like a lot and have given numerous plays.

I also quite like the GOD CD mentioned by Jon above, which I've only heard once but liked. I heard it as having aspects of both noise and eai and didn't know quite where to place it, not having a large context of noise to compare it with, yet. I like the CD, though,and will look into them more closely over time.

I agree with the Hive Mind. I was disappointed that the New York show was so uninspiring since I like Sand Beast and Death Tone lots. It seemed like it didn't get that counterpoint of distortion and high end to offset the low end rumble. I still bought a shirt and 3 discs.

The God CD "Anti-sex" is great though and I absolutely agree with your assessment that it mixes up the noise and eai things. After numerous listens I would have put it in the noise category if forced because of the way it structures certain themes but find it an excellent miscegenation. After hearing the increased volume and dynamics that was prevalent at Erstquake I think that we'll be seeing more of this process. As I said in my initial post, I would like to see more sophistication amongst the No Fun crew and perhaps that will happen or not. I'm sure we'll be hearing some satisfying sounds from the growing eai noiseters.

I got Sand Beast and Misenlian around the same time. In some ways when I first heard them they had a similarity in sound and so I played them for my brother who is a fan of industrial music but knows nothing of eai. My brother very much preferred Sand Beast. I think the reason is that it's built around certain repetitive structures and he finds something there to grasp onto. I was thinking that perhaps one of the things I like about eai is the improv aspect, the lack of a very specific structure to hang its sounds on. Sure there might be some structure, and repetition but it's not as immediately indentifiable to me as the those in other musics. This is probably one reason that I have never had much use for pop music in general and the rock bands I like in the 80's where those that fucked up the structure and used lots of noise. As was pointed out to me in New York when I was discussing this, Misenlian is not exactly much more than a processed and organized recording in much the same way that Sand Beast is; so my initial claims that "improv" trumps "organized" were not specifically exact in this juxtaposition. However the music still has a trajectory that while not novel, slow quiet build to crescendo, is not as repetitive. I found the comparison helpful in distilling some thoughts on these matters though I don't want to pit the recordings against one another. I'm not saying that Misenlian is better than Sand Beast. It's that hearing these several times back to back clarified some things as I've been checking out some of the newer noise bands. To think through my own predilections for specific types of sounds and what sort of basis my aesthetic is predicated on.
In the end I think that I find a freedom in unstructured or abstract music that is challenging to my intellect and provides a fertile ground both emotionally as well as intellectually. The temporal aspect provides a sort of dislocation that I find vastly satisfying. There were times at Erstquake when I felt as though "I was coming back down to earth" after a set and I wasn't doing any drugs at all. Perhaps with this stuff I don't need any.
I'm not standing either/or on this since I don't want to listen to "only" one kind of music. Variety being, y'know. I got some more Wolf Eyes discs while in New York, though I have yet to get Burned Mind since the fans I know don't seem to like it much. And I'm checking out others as well. I like to keep my options open.
Now where's that Joe Colley/Jason Lascalleet disc........