Looking for a FGM Expert

[jazzy mary]

Hi all! I have no idea if this is where I should put this. It seemed more fitting here than the Alley.

Here's why I'm asking. I am working on a couple of pro bono cases at my law firm concerning Female Genital Mutilation ("FGM"). One of my clients is from Guinea. In Guinea, FGM is "outlawed" yet it still goes on all the time and they are not enforcing this law. I need to find an expert on FGM who is an expert on FGM in GUINEA. That's the difficult part. There are FGM experts. But I need to find one who can testify about the culture and practice in Guinea. Otherwise my client may be sent back to Guinea with her 5 daughters who will be subjected to FGM and will be subject to horrific health problems and, quite possibly, death.


The reason I'm asking is because "why not"? and because so many of you here (all, basically) are so smart and some of you may know of connections to people in universities, colleges etc. So, if you have any leads, pls. feel free to pm me! If nothing else, you all will be hip to this human rights issue! Thanks, everyone!!!!

[Squaredancecalling Steve]

Author Alice Walker's 1991 novel "Possessing The Secret of Joy" dealt with the subject, and since then has written and spoken extensively on this subject. (She lives north of here, in Mendocino County.)

[Pete C]

I sent you a PM about an academic who would not be your expert, but he might know who you could contact.

[Mike Schwartz]

As silly as this may seem, there was a compelling episode of "Law & Order" a few years ago that dealt with this topic, so obviously, the folks associated with that program did some serious homework.

That may be a long shot, but quite honestly it was that program that became my initial awareness that this practice existed.

[Gordon B]

Mary, try a google search. I found this State Department Report from 2001

Here's an excerpt from the report

Outreach Activities:
In Guinea, the organization that deals with traditional practices affecting the health of women and children is CPTAFE or Coordinating Body on Traditional Practices Affecting the Health of Women and Children (Cellule de Coordination sur les Pratiques Traditionnelles Affectant la Sante des Femmes et des Enfants). It is a well-established non-governmental organization (NGO) that came into existence in 1988. It is recognized by the government of Guinea. This organization collaborates with the government through the Department of Health and Social Affairs and Women’s Affairs.

CPTAFE is a strong advocate. It has long worked to eradicate this practice in Guinea and to aid potential victims of it. Through its efforts, an article has been included in the Guinean Constitution that upholds the right to physical integrity of the person and condemns all forms of inhumane treatment.

[jazzy mary]

Thanks everyone! Anyone else? I really appreciate it!

[patricia]

The "tradition" of genital mutilation is so entrenched in the cultures of not just Guinea, but in much of Africa and parts of the Middle East that it has been difficult, if not impossible to eradicate. It's seen, much as circumcision for boy, as a necessary procedure for cleanliness. In fact, today in those cultures if a young woman still possesses and intact clitoris she is virtually unmarriageable. It is much like the practice of the Surris in Africa who as a rite of passage into womanhood drill a hole in the girls' lower lip and gradually stretch the lip over a plate over time. The larger the plate the girl can contain in her now detached from the rest of her face lip, the more cattle her family can ask for her from her intended's family. When there is no plate inserted, her detached lower lip just hangs there.
The most disturbing thing is that those who move to North America and other Western countries quite often seek out someone who will perform the genital mutilation, though obviously not the lip thing.
I find that my male friends are able to become almost as repulsed by GM as I am, if I equate genital mutilation with the possibility of their having had the head of their penis cut off at puberty. According to geneticists, at three months gestation, the part of the gentalia that becomes the head of the penis in a boy becomes the clitoris in a girl. All of a sudden the lightbulb comes on over my friends' heads and they understand the travesty that GM is. If the equivalent of this procedure were being performed on young boys, the outrage would be enormous. It's not about hygene, it's about control.

As for information about the practice, there are at least fifty entries if you google either "female circumcision" [an understatement if ever there was one] or "female genital mutilation" which are very informative.

[jazzy mary]

The history of FGM goes back thousands of years--back to ancient Egypt, actually. It's not thoroughly entrenched everywhere in Africa, it depends on the tribal customs.

The men are not the ones keeping this practice alive. It's the elder women of the village. African women have, basically, no rights--even their children belong not to them but to their husband's family. So, to be in charge of the FGM ritual is one of the very few "power" positions a woman has. It's very complicated, and I've read, literally hundreds of pages about the practice.

[patricia]

Originally Posted by jazzy mary

The history of FGM goes back thousands of years--back to ancient Egypt, actually. It's not thoroughly entrenched everywhere in Africa, it depends on the tribal customs.

The men are not the ones keeping this practice alive. It's the elder women of the village. African women have, basically, no rights--even their children belong not to them but to their husband's family. So, to be in charge of the FGM ritual is one of the very few "power" positions a woman has. It's very complicated, and I've read, literally hundreds of pages about the practice.

I have read hundreds of pages as well, and to approach the problem from a risk to life angle misses the point. Unless unhygenic instruments are used, it is not about risking the young woman's life as much as it is about destroying their sexuality. The perceived power of the young women's sexuality is seen as a danger to the desired fidelity of the young woman to her husband when she marries. One may think of it as a surgical chastity belt. If a woman's sexual pleasure is non-existant, then it is less likely she will stray, much as if a comparable surgery, to use the term loosely were performed on young boys.
As you mention, the men have control over everything in some African cultures and putting the elder women in charge of this barbaric practice is reprehensible. But, as you say, having control over this barbarism is the only power they have. To make it worse, they actually believe in the tradition.
This practice has no basis from a health standpoint.

[jazzy mary]

The risk of life angle is a very important one, and one that is overlooked, I feel. Of course, the loss of sexuality is devastating. Many girls do die from this practice due to massive infections. And if they do survive, they have massive health problems the rest of their lives.

Un hygenic instruments are used. Often the cutting is done with a piece of glass or a special saw toothed knife (yes, it's stomach turning, but true), this same instrument is used on all the girls who are undergoing this ritual. Then the girls genital area is packed with mud and maybe some sort of leaves, that's the bandage. There are 4 stages of FMG, which I don't have time to go into here. I'm sure Patricia knows them and maybe she wouldn't mind listing them. It's somewhat time consuming and I'm under a bunch of deadlines on projects at week, including this one! So, that would be great if you'd like to, Patricia!

There's also a mythological aspect to the cutting. Ancient myth/religion believes that some Gods are both female and male. Therefore, on humans, the female part must be cut away from the man (circumcision) and the male part must be cut away from the woman. There are those who believe that if that's not done, the woman's clitoris will grow and all kinds of things. It was amazing all the stuff I found out.

[Doc Martin]

I witnessed FGM first hand in the early 80’s on the Samburu Game Preserve in Kenya. I was actually told to do this to my wife!


Ok, folks what follows is not pretty, if you are squeamish, you may not want to read further. Don’t say I didn’t warn you.


FGM is most often performed between the ages of 4 and 10 years, although in some communities it may be practiced on infants or postponed until just before marriage.11 Typically a local village practitioner, lay person, or midwife is engaged for a fee to perform the procedure, which is done without anesthesia using a variety of instruments, such as knives, razor blades, broken glass, or scissors. In developed countries physicians may be sought to perform FGM under sterile conditions with the use of anesthesia. The various ritual genital practices are classified into four types based on the severity of structural disfigurement.

Type I FGM, often termed clitorectomy, involves excision of the skin surrounding the clitoris with or without excision of part or all of the clitoris. When this procedure is performed in infants and young girls, a portion of or all of the clitoris and surrounding tissues may be removed. If only the clitoral prepuce is removed, the physical manifestation of Type I FGM may be subtle, necessitating a careful examination of the clitoris and adjacent structures for recognition.

Type II FGM, referred to as excision, is the removal of the entire clitoris and part or all of the labia minora . Crude stitches of catgut or thorns may be used to control bleeding from the clitoral artery and raw tissue surfaces, or mud poultices may be applied directly to the perineum. Patients with Type II FGM do not have the typical contour of the anterior perineal structures resulting from the absence of the labia minora and clitoris. The vaginal opening is not covered in the Type II procedure.

Type III FGM, known as infibulation, is the most severe form in which the entire clitoris and some or all of the labia minora are excised, and incisions are made in the labia majora to create raw surfaces . The labial raw surfaces are stitched together to cover the urethra and vaginal introitus, leaving a small posterior opening for urinary and menstrual flow. In Type III FGM, the patient will have a firm band of tissue replacing the labia and obliteration of the urethra and vaginal openings.

Type IV includes different practices of variable severity including pricking, piercing or incision of the clitoris and/or labia; stretching of the clitoris and/or labia; cauterization of the clitoris; and scraping or introduction of corrosive substances into the vagina.

The physical complications associated with FGM may be acute or chronic. Early, life-threatening risks include hemorrhage, shock secondary to blood loss or pain, local infection and failure to heal, septicemia, tetanus, trauma to adjacent structures, and urinary retention. Infibulation (Type III) is often associated with long-term gynecologic or urinary tract difficulties. Common gynecologic problems involve the development of painful subcutaneous dermoid cysts and keloid formation along excised tissue edges. More serious complications include pelvic infection, dysmenorrhea, hematocolpos, painful intercourse, infertility, recurrent urinary tract infection, and urinary calculus formation. Pelvic examination is difficult or impossible for women who have been infibulated, and vaginal childbirth requires an episiotomy to avoid serious vulvar lacerations.

[jazzy mary]

That's it, Doc. My clients' daughters, ranging in age from toddler to 16 would all be forced to undergo this if my client had to return. They will do this to a girl beyond the age of 10 if it hasn't been done. They cannot be married and will be ostracized if it hasn't been done.

Some tribes are opting for a very, very, very slight nick or just the laying of the knife on the clitoris and/or thigh of a girl and that is sufficing to be the circumcision. It would be a BIG step forward if the tribes would begin to practice this "symbolic" purification rite instead of the mutilation.

You witnessed it, Doc? That must have been very traumatizing.

[Doc Martin]

Originally Posted by jazzy mary

You witnessed it, Doc? That must have been very traumatizing.

Not traumatizing as much as infuriating. I did not witness the actual act, I witnessed the aftermath.

In a small village outside of Meru, (this is just north east of Mt. Kenya) I was flagged down by a Peace Corp. volunteer; she asked me if I had any antibiotics and antiseptic, and would I take a look a young girl. Three hours later, I had the girl (six or seven years old) cleaned, sutured and relatively stable (for a veterinarian at any rate).

In Kenya whenever you came across the Red Cross or the Peace Corps., FGM was always a topic of conversation.

It’s all just so damned senseless

[jazzy mary]

Utterly, utterly senseless and so, so cruel. The treatment of women in third world countries is a major human rights issue.

Thank God, you were able to help that young girl. Many girls are not as fortunate and they die. Can you imagine the pain they go through?

[Surfer]

I was a Peace Corps Volunteer in Guinea for two years (95-97). I dont know if I can help you out, but if there's anything you want to ask me, feel free. I wasnt a health vol, I was in education.

[Surfer]

Originally Posted by jazzy mary

African women have, basically, no rights--even their children belong not to them but to their husband's family. So, to be in charge of the FGM ritual is one of the very few "power" positions a woman has.

This isnt true in my experience.

At the risk of sounding condescending, you need to be careful of approaching this from a very western culturally imperialistic viewpoint.

[jazzy mary]

Surfer, do you know any FGM experts? I know what you mean about the Western, imperialistic thing. But this practice mutilates and endangers women's health and life. It is a human rights violation. It falls under "Convention Against Torture"

I'm not the one who says women have no power in Africa. I've read it time and time again in women's affidavits, expert reports, gov't papers and academic papers.

I'm talking about legal power.

Don't take this as a "throw back at you", I don't mean it that way, but what legal power do women have in Africa that you found in your exerience? I don't know of any, but I could be wrong.

Actually, FGM is on the books as against the law in many African nations (Guinea is one, Mali isn't) but the law is not enforced at all.

BTW, I'm not looking to change African culture, I wish this practice would change. I'm just trying to help save these girls from FGM--they will, at the very least be mutilated, at the worst, die.

[Surfer]

Originally Posted by jazzy mary

Surfer, do you know any FGM experts? I know what you mean about the Western, imperialistic thing. But this practice mutilates and endangers women's health and life. It is a human rights violation. It falls under "Convention Against Torture"

I'm not the one who says women have no power in AfricaI've read it time and time again frommen's affidavits, expert reports, gov't papers andcademic papers.

I'm talking about legal power.

Don't take this as a "throw back at you, don't mean it that way, but what legal power do women have in Africa that you found in your exerience? I don't know of any, but I could be wrong.

No I dont know any FGM experts. You can contact the Guinea desk at the Peace Corps in Washington and they can probably direct you to someone.

If you are representing a Guinean woman in this issue, then I support your work to represent them. But be aware that not every woman in West Africa shares her and your point of view. If you are taking this on as your own cause celebre, then you'd better think twice.

But this practice mutilates and endangers women's health and life. It is a human rights violation. It falls under "Convention Against Torture"

This is true in some cases. Having lived in a village, and having talked about this with female PC health workers (who didnt really work on this issue, as its not entirely a health issue, its a cultural issue), many many women have this done in minor ways that dont affect their health. They (according to the PCVs I talked to) choose to have it done. See, the problem I had with your language above is that it is loaded: mutilation, endanger, torture. As much as SOME Guinean women dislike the practice, unless they are Westernized, they would never use such phrases. In my experience, what Doc described above is pretty rare.

I'm not the one who says women have no power in AfricaI've read it time and time again frommen's affidavits, expert reports, gov't papers andcademic papers.

I'm talking about legal power.

All these are western institutions, ideas. How many Guinean women (other that the one you are representing) have you talked to? How many of those papers, reports are by men or Western women?

There is no "legal framework" as you conceive it in Guinea on the local level. So its moot to even consider that point. I found women have A LOT of power on the domestic front and in other ways that might surprise you. Women may not have visible positions of power, although many did in my village, they have a lot of say in what goes on.

In my African family, the nene (mother) held a LOT of power in the household and what went on and what didnt.

All that being said, I personally dislike the practice, but it is not my decision.

Women all over the world do all sorts of things to "mutilate" themselves. The Peuls in Guinea are know for putting hoops around their neck to elongate it. (I am not equating this with FGM, btw) But this isnt solely a health or legal issue.

You need to talk to GUINEAN WOMEN. Beware of so-called experts. Beware of people who arent FROM the culture, or who have never spent significant time there

That's all I'm saying.

I'll try to contact my friend Jason at the Peace Corps.

[Surfer]

[QUOTE=jazzy mary]

Actually, FGM is on the books as against the law in many African nations (Guinea is one, Mali isn't) but the law is not enforced at all.

QUOTE]

I am aware of that. See, you need to understand that there is a wide spectrum of "procedures" that people call FGM. It is very easy from our "enlightened" perspective to sit back and say FGM is bad. Some FGM is very very bad and very dangerous. Other types are very harmless.

Not that any of it is necessary.

BTW, I'm not looking to change African culture, I wish this practice would change. I'm just trying to help save these girls from FGM--they will, at the very least be mutilated, at the worst, die.

How much do you know about this family? Where are they from in Guinea? Do you know their ethnic "tribe"? I'm just saying you may not have a good a grasp on their situation as you think you do. It may not be as black and white as it seems (no pun intended).

[Surfer]

I just want to be clear that I'm not being contrarian here just for the sake of being argumentative. Nor am I trying to "pull rank".

Talking about things across a gulf as wide as the one that separates Guinean culture and American culture is very very difficult. Nearly impossible if you havent had some experience living and interacting there.

[patricia]

Thank you for the detailed explanation, Doc and everyone. My information about the practice came from reading about it and knowing three different women who emigrated from Africa to Canada, who had had the procedure done and told me what was involved in their particular cases.
The rings around the necks to elongate them and the plates inserted in the lips, while odd, are part of the culture of particular tribes, as was mentioned earlier and don't have the same deep significance, IMO, as does FGM. They would more accurately, I think, be compared to the obsession with abnormally large breasts that is accepted here, along with the surgery required to produce much of them. I'm sure that the same cultures which stretch the necks and detach lips of their women, giggle behind their hands at our standards of what is beautiful.
The FGM practice is much more widely practiced and though it's true that we shouldn't judge other cultures' customs, this is a world-wide problem now and has come to international attention. This of course is because people from those cultures move to the west and continue their cultural traditions, some of which enrich ours and some of which do not. FGM is not a tradition that should be tolerated by ignoring it here. This is not just a strange and exotic custom, but harmless. It is not acceptable. Period.
And yes, it is practiced here and in the U.S. Making FGM illegal hasn't and won't make any appreciable difference. Cultural practices die hard. Attitudes have to be changed and that quite often takes almost as many generations as it took to establish them, though we hope not in this case. An uphill road.
What I posted about it earlier I stand by. It is, whether it's traditional or not, an odeous thing to do to another human being, especially if it is done in such a way that it curtails any sexual pleasure that a woman is meant to experience, IMO. Seldom in the case of circumcision is a man's sexual response affected, or totally destroyed. Not so with the mutilation or total destruction of a woman's sexual response centre. That's why I see it as an attempt to control, rather than a health or cultural issue.
That it's traditional does not change what it does to the young woman on whom it is performed. Yes, it's an accepted rite of passage in some cultures, but that doesn't make it right.

[jazzy mary]

[QUOTE=Surfer]

Originally Posted by jazzy mary

Actually, FGM is on the books as against the law in many African nations (Guinea is one, Mali isn't) but the law is not enforced at all.

QUOTE]

I am aware of that. See, you need to understand that there is a wide spectrum of "procedures" that people call FGM. It is very easy from our "enlightened" perspective to sit back and say FGM is bad. Some FGM is very very bad and very dangerous. Other types are very harmless.

Not that any of it is necessary.



How much do you know about this family? Where are they from in Guinea? Do you know their ethnic "tribe"? I'm just saying you may not have a good a grasp on their situation as you think you do. It may not be as black and white as it seems (no pun intended).

Between Doc's outline and my discussion of the more "Symbolic" FGM ritual, I think we covered the wide spectrum. Aside from the "symbolic" one, I don't see where the others are harmless at all. Are there others? Which types are "very harmless"? The ones that my clients' girls would be subjected to aren't the harmless ones.

I'm sorry, Surfer, I'm not sure if you understood my first post and why I started this thread. I work at a big, NYC law firm and we do pro bono work. We have several asylum cases (all kinds of people, all kinds of reasons). There were a couple of FGM cases that an associate needed help with. Even though I'm extremely busy working on a major securities fraud case, I volunteered because I wanted to do some pro bono work and helping women was right up my alley. I've done lots of other pro bono work too--mainly trying to save people from the electric chair. I was eager to do something more interesting and help someone, other than big corporations. Also, working on pro bono cases, typically, a case manager gets to do more substantive work, so it's more engaging.

Another pro bono case I'm working on is for the Karma Triyana Dharmachakra Monastery in a town upstate. Thye want to build a bigger monastery and the town doesn't want them to. This case, involving building codes and blueprints, I have to admit, is not as interesting as my FGM or the death penalty cases I've worked on.

I didn't really know what to expect when I went into to these FGM cases. But I really like the attorney I'm working with (she's from Scotland) and I'm finding the cases very interesting. I do know alot about both of the women who sought asylum and were referrred to us by the organization "Sanctuary for Families". I do know their tribes, I've met and spoken (French, yet) to both of them. They both have extensive affidavits telling about their lives and what is in store for them and their daughters if they are forced to go back to their countries. I also have affidavits from their family members and children. These are sworn documents. Truly, my file for each of this cases, is around 900 pages worth of stuff of which I've read every page. So, yes, I know all about their tribes, culture, who their parents were, their husbands, what FGM they had, where they live, what they do here in the U.S., their cell phone numbers etc. etc. I won't go into any details to respect their privacy.

I don't pretend to know anything about African culture. I have never lived in Africa--I'd love to go there sometime. I have read a lot about it, know some African people and have seen a lot of movies by African directors. Of course, I realize, not the same thing at all. But my focus here is narrow--just to help represent these 2 women, fill out forms, get an expert, do what my attorney asks me to do. As you can well imagine, dealing w/ the Dept. of Homeland Security (that's Immigration now) is no picnic.

This isn't a cause celebre that I've taken up. It's an assignment that I do for my job. These women sought out asylum. Agencies to whom we have indicated that we would like to do pro bono work for (all big law firms do this, or else they look even more money grubbing than they are) refer these cases to my law firm and then we staff them just like any other case. One of my assignmnents was to locate an expert, thus my thread. And I did write the Professor Pete told me about. I've found a few other contacts through some websites etc. including a woman right in Brooklyn who runs an "African Women's Rights" center. I just got off the phone with her. My clients are lucky, they have representation. Al lot of people out there don't and don't know where to go. Another interesting case my attorney has (I'm not working on this one, but I may) is a man who was a midwife in Gambia who has spoken out about FGM He said he had just seen too many girls die and he is seeking political asylum. His life would be in danger if he went back to Gambia. The President of Gambia has said that no one is allowed to even speak out about FGM!

I hope you now understand more about the origin and reason for my work on these 2 cases.

[Tom Hall]

Patricia says:

"........ Seldom in the case of circumcision is a man's sexual response affected, or totally destroyed..."

Circumcision of the foreskin is very much like what was described here as Type I FGM, and is equally unneccesary. Even even done well, it has a major negative effect on the functioning of the penis and on men's sexual response. When done poorly, it can cause serious damage.

Not to change the subject, but just to point out that America's obsession with male circumcision is as harmful to the sexuality and psyche of the males in our culture as Type I FGM is to females in the cultures that practice it.

[Surfer]

[QUOTE=jazzy mary]

Originally Posted by Surfer

Between Doc's outline and my discussion of the more "Symbolic" FGM ritual, I think we covered the wide spectrum. Aside from the "symbolic" one, I don't see where the others are harmless at all. Are there others? Which types are "very harmless"? The ones that my clients' girls would be subjected to aren't the harmless ones.

I'm sorry, Surfer, I'm not sure if you understood my first post and why I started this thread. I work at a big, NYC law firm and we do pro bono work. We have several asylum cases (all kinds of people, all kinds of reasons). There were a couple of FGM cases that an associate needed help with. Even though I'm extremely busy working on a major securities fraud case, I volunteered because I wanted to do some pro bono work and helping women was right up my alley. I've done lots of other pro bono work too--mainly trying to save people from the electric chair. I was eager to do something more interesting and help someone, other than big corporations. Also, working on pro bono cases, typically, a case manager gets to do more substantive work, so it's more engaging.

Another pro bono case I'm working on is for the Karma Triyana Dharmachakra Monastery in a town upstate. Thye want to build a bigger monastery and the town doesn't want them to. This case, involving building codes and blueprints, I have to admit, is not as interesting as my FGM or the death penalty cases I've worked on.

I didn't really know what to expect when I went into to these FGM cases. But I really like the attorney I'm working with (she's from Scotland) and I'm finding the cases very interesting. I do know alot about both of the women who sought asylum and were referrred to us by the organization "Sanctuary for Families". I do know their tribes, I've met and spoken (French, yet) to both of them. They both have extensive affidavits telling about their lives and what is in store for them and their daughters if they are forced to go back to their countries. I also have affidavits from their family members and children. These are sworn documents. Truly, my file for each of this cases, is around 900 pages worth of stuff of which I've read every page. So, yes, I know all about their tribes, culture, who their parents were, their husbands, what FGM they had, where they live, what they do here in the U.S., their cell phone numbers etc. etc. I won't go into any details to respect their privacy.

I don't pretend to know anything about African culture. I have never lived in Africa--I'd love to go there sometime. I have read a lot about it, know some African people and have seen a lot of movies by African directors. Of course, I realize, not the same thing at all. But my focus here is narrow--just to help represent these 2 women, fill out forms, get an expert, do what my attorney asks me to do. As you can well imagine, dealing w/ the Dept. of Homeland Security (that's Immigration now) is no picnic.

This isn't a cause celebre that I've taken up. It's an assignment that I do for my job. These women sought out asylum. Agencies to whom we have indicated that we would like to do pro bono work for (all big law firms do this, or else they look even more money grubbing than they are) refer these cases to my law firm and then we staff them just like any other case. One of my assignmnents was to locate an expert, thus my thread. And I did write the Professor Pete told me about. I've found a few other contacts through some websites etc. including a woman right in Brooklyn who runs an "African Women's Rights" center. I just got off the phone with her. My clients are lucky, they have representation. Al lot of people out there don't and don't know where to go. Another interesting case my attorney has (I'm not working on this one, but I may) is a man who was a midwife in Gambia who has spoken out about FGM He said he had just seen too many girls die and he is seeking political asylum. His life would be in danger if he went back to Gambia. The President of Gambia has said that no one is allowed to even speak out about FGM!

I hope you now understand more about the origin and reason for my work on these 2 cases.

I talked to a woman who married a host country national (Guinean) while serving about this. Just generally.

I have a huge event for work today and cant really respond in depth. I surmised your situation from your original post. You're their adovocate. It doesnt REALLY matter if their life is actually in danger or not. You have to take their word for it. Get them asylum if you can. Personally I dont care what their reason is. Help the woman.

I just wanted to know how much you actually knew about their situation back in Guinea.

I just wanted to say, that in my village in Guinea, it happened (FGM). How widespread I have no idea. But I am sure women were not dying by the dozens or even single digits. If they were, there would have been a HUGE outcry, and people at the (French run) health clinic would have surely known about it, thus I would have known about it. I do know that lots of women lead very healthy sexual lives (the gossip mill was working overtime, trust me). Plus I had a Guinean gf as well.

Its not perfect, but Guinean village life has survived and flourished for thousands and thousands of years. If they want to change it, they will.

Maybe I'll write more tomorrow, but right now I gotta go.

[jazzy mary]

Good luck w/ your event at work, Surfer.

That's the point, the Guineans don't want to change it. FGM, that is. But it is a human rights violation, nonetheless.

Please don't think I want to come in and "Westernize" Guinea or any other African nation. The French already did a hell of a job with that. I'm anti colonization. I agree w/ your statement about Guinea (and I'd extend this to many other African countries too--but some African countries are a mess now--Rwanda, Ivory Coast, Liberia etc.) and the culture.

It is certain that my client's daughters would be subject to FGM. We are really helping the girls by helping the Mother. Well, helping all of them.

People do die from it. Maybe not by the dozens or whatever but the practice is harmful physically, and sexually. Here's how it's done in my clients' tribe in Mali. A local woman, belonging to the Forgeron tribe does the cutting with a knife or razor , not sterilized and used on several girls, no anesthetic. It is done in the family bathroom. Our client hastened to add that these are not like American bathrooms--they usually have no roof and consist of no more than a hole in the ground. If the Forgeron makes a big cut or a wrong cut, the baby can be seriously injured or even killed. There is a hospital near the village, but no ambulances to take anyone there. The most common complication is hemorrhaging and it takes too long to get to the hospital to prevent it. In my clients' family,the woman were lucky to escape serious physical injury (she does have some med. and sexual problems however because of FMG). One of her fellow villagers' daughter had it done one week after birth and the baby died from tetanus.

After the procedure is done, the Forgeron applies a black substance to the wound--made from a mixture of animal excrement and petrol lamp waste.

I'm sure not all women in Guinea have this procedure done. I never said everyone has it done. Again, my focus is on these two cases, only. The tribe, profession and education level make a big difference. I have no idea what your gf had done, or if, she had Fmg. That is personal. In the FGM where the clitoris is cut away--even a bit, that makes a difference, sexually.


Btw, has anyone seen the film "Moolaade" by the great filmaker, Ousmane Sembene? It's a fictional film about a woman who is against FGM and confronts her village about it--and makes quite a fuss! Despite it seeming to be a "depressing" film about a tough subject it is a very tender and lovely film--although very tragic too. I don't want to give away the ending. It's a great film.

[patricia]

I guess that the question that remains is whose idea was this procedure originally, all those hundreds of years ago? Why this particular procedure if not for control of the women of the tribe?
A sexually unsophistocated person would never think of such a thing. Even today, the sheer strength of womens' sexuality is frightening to many men, once they are aware of it. I suspect that assuring children's paternity is at the root of the practice. After all, what would be the point of straying if sex was no more than a duty? Now, I would think, it's just "tradition" and it's original purpose has faded into the fog of time, but it's still barbaric.

Are the woman and her daughters in this country legally, for some other reason, or are they here solely to prevent the procedure being done in Guinea? Is this a political asylum or humanitarian asylum situation? Is there a precedent for asylum on the basis of this? If not, it would indeed be ground-breaking law. If a decision were made in her and her daughters' favour, there may be the objection that if it is, there would be a huge wave of women streaming to North America for asylum, strictly on the basis that FGM is practiced in their tribe, or culture. The hoped for result would of course be that such a decision would curtail a practice dating back hundreds of years. How likely is that to happen? So, it's not as straightforward as we might think it should be. This is not a new problem and many, many people are aware of it and have been for years. I remember reading about the practice long before I knew anyone who had had it done to them.

[jazzy mary]

Sorry, Patricia but I can't talk about the cases to that level. The procedure is done for a woman's "purity", so she will be a virgin when she marries, so she won't stray. Ridiculous, imho. There was also that religious/mythological thing I mentioned previously.

Women's sexuality is very scary to men. My theory is because women are the creators & destroyers. Hey, it's a tough job but someone has to do it!

[patricia]

Originally Posted by jazzy mary

Sorry, Patricia but I can't talk about the cases to that level. The procedure is done for a woman's "purity", so she will be a virgin when she marries, so she won't stray. Ridiculous, imho. There was also that religious/mythological thing I mentioned previously.

Women's sexuality is very scary to men. My theory is because women are the creators & destroyers. Hey, it's a tough job but someone has to do it!

Exactly what I was thinking. It's not only in Guinea that women's sexuality is scary. I keep thinking of the praying mantis who, after the small part played by the male in the reproductive process, she just gets past all the nonsense and eats her partner, and not in a good way.

[jazzy mary]

"and not in a good way" LOL!!

[patricia]

Originally Posted by jazzy mary

"and not in a good way" LOL!!

I blush. But, hey, it occurred to me.