And God said, "Dubya, You the Man!"

[Dennis Gonzalez]

LONDON (AFP) - US President George W. Bush allegedly said God told him to invade Iraq and Afghanistan, a new BBC documentary will reveal, according to details.

Bush made the claim when he met Palestinian leader Mahmud Abbas and then foreign minister Nabil Shaath in June 2003, the ministers told the documentary series to be broadcast in Britain later this month.

The US leader also told them he had been ordered by God to create a Palestinian state, the ministers said.

Shaath, now the Palestinian information minister, said: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God.

'God would tell me, 'George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan'.'

"And I did, and then God would tell me, 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq...' And I did.

"'And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East.' And by God I'm gonna do it'," said Shaath.

Abbas, who was also at the meeting in the Egyptian resort of Sharm al-Sheikh, recalled how the president told him: "I have a moral and religious obligation.

"So I will get you a Palestinian state."

A BBC spokesman said the content of the programme had been put to the White House but it had refused to comment on a private conversation.*

The three-part series, "Elusive Peace: Israel and the Arabs", charts the attempts to bring peace to the Middle East, from former US president Bill Clinton's peace talks in 1999-2000 to Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza strip.

The programme speaks to presidents and prime ministers, their generals and ministers, about what happened behind closed doors as the peace talks failed and the intifada grew.

The series is due to be screened in Britain on October 10, 17 and 24.

*My question: Do they mean the conversation between God and Dubya, or Abbas and Bush?

[GoodSpeak]

Whoa.

So God speaks to Gee Dubya and Gee Dubya goes to war?





I wonder if anyone told our president appointee that God basically speaks to everyone in some form or another.


He [God] told me that Peace and loving one's neighbor is my duty.



And guess what?


It's even in the Bible.

Psssh.



Who knew?

[jesus marion joseph]

God spoke to me one day. He said "Norton, you're fucked."

So I went to law school.

[GoodSpeak]

Originally Posted by jesus marion joseph

God spoke to me one day. He said "Norton, you're fucked."

So I went to law school.

Musta been good advice, JMJ.

I mean, look how well things turned out....you are a successful lawyer.


In your conversations with God did He happen mention anything about being a conservative, right-wing republican...?





I always figured Him for a Lib-servative.

[Paul B]

I'm wondering what God told Monte and Gordon....

[cookie]

Bush is the Anti-Christ.










....well, maybe not, but he could be.

If, as it's been occasionally reported, he truly does possess this messianic bent and sees himself as the annointed one, then he suffers from a personality disorder far more serious than Nixon's.

There was a while there when I listened to some of the Nixon tapes when I could not imagine a more seriously deranged and damaged man ever becoming president.
I may have been very wrong.

[Gentle Giant]

He musta had some pretzels lodged in his ears. I'm sure what the Big Guy really said was, "George, go to !@#$% Hell!!!"

And yet, why does this make me think of Flip Wilson's Geraldine?

"The Devil made me invade Iraq!"

[Al in NYC]

[Doc Martin]

Sounds like an Acid flash-back.

[rollhead]

Originally Posted by Dennis Gonzalez

[B]LONDON (AFP) - US President George W. Bush allegedly said God told him to invade Iraq and Afghanistan, a new BBC documentary will reveal, according to details.

I wonder of God told the U.S. media not to report on this, or he'd have Rush, Ann, O'Reilly and Pat Robertson kick their asses.

[rollhead]

White House denies Bush God claims

James Sturcke
Friday October 7, 2005


A senior White House official has denied that the US president, George Bush, said God ordered him to invade Afghanistan and Iraq.
A spokesman for Mr Bush, Scott McClellan, said the claims, to be broadcast in a TV documentary later this month, were "absurd".

In the BBC film, a former Palestinian foreign minister, Nabil Shaath, says that Mr Bush told a Palestinian delegation in 2003 that God spoke to him and said: "George, go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan" and also "George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq".

During a White House press briefing, Mr McClellan said: "No, that's absurd. He's never made such comments."
Mr McClellan admitted he was not at the Israeli-Palestinian summit at the Egyptian resort of Sharm el-Sheikh in June 2003 when Mr Bush supposedly revealed the extent of his religious fervour.

However, he said he had checked into the claims and "I stand by what I just said".

Asked if Mr Bush had ever mentioned that God had ordered him into Afghanistan and Iraq, Mr McClellan said: "No, and I've been in many meetings with him and never heard such a thing."

The claims are due to be broadcast in a three-part BBC documentary which analyses attempts to bring peace to the Middle East.

Mr Shaath, the Palestinian foreign minister in 2003, claims Mr Bush told him and other delegates that he was spoken to by God over his plans for war.

He told the film-makers: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan. And I did, and then God would tell me, George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq... And I did.

"'And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East. And by God I'm gonna do it.'"

The Palestinian leader, Mahmoud Abbas, who attended the June 2003 meeting as well, also appears on the documentary series to recount how Mr Bush told him: "I have a moral and religious obligation. So I will get you a Palestinian state."

Mr Bush, who became a born-again Christian at 40, is one of the most overtly religious leaders to occupy the White House, a fact that brings him much support in middle America.

"History is littered with examples of people doing the most bizarre and sometimes wicked things on this basis," said Andrew Blackstock, director of the British-based Christian Socialist Movement. "If Bush really wants to obey God during his time as president he should start with what is blindingly obvious from the Bible rather than perceived supernatural messages.

"That would lead him to the rather less glamorous business of prioritising the needs of the poor, the downtrodden and the marginalised in his own country and abroad.

"When we see more policies reflecting that, it might be easier to believe he has God on his side. And more likely that God might speak to him."

The TV series, which starts on Monday, charts recent attempts to bring peace to the Middle East, from the former US president Bill Clinton's peace talks in 1999-2000, to Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza Strip this year. It seeks to uncover what happened behind closed doors by speaking to presidents and prime ministers, along with their generals and ministers, the BBC said.

[lynn]

More that likely this is the root of the problem.

================================


The dark side of faith

By ROSA BROOKS
IT'S OFFICIAL: Too much religion may be a dangerous thing.
Oct 1, 2005

This is the implication of a study reported in the current issue of the Journal of Religion and Society, a publication of Creighton University's Center for the Study of Religion. The study, by evolutionary scientist Gregory S. Paul, looks at the correlation between levels of "popular religiosity" and various "quantifiable societal health" indicators in 18 prosperous democracies, including the United States.

Paul ranked societies based on the percentage of their population expressing absolute belief in God, the frequency of prayer reported by their citizens and their frequency of attendance at religious services. He then correlated this with data on rates of homicide, sexually transmitted disease, teen pregnancy, abortion and child mortality.

He found that the most religious democracies exhibited substantially higher degrees of social dysfunction than societies with larger percentages of atheists and agnostics. Of the nations studied, the U.S. — which has by far the largest percentage of people who take the Bible literally and express absolute belief in God (and the lowest percentage of atheists and agnostics) — also has by far the highest levels of homicide, abortion, teen pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases.

This conclusion will come as no surprise to those who have long gnashed their teeth in frustration while listening to right-wing evangelical claims that secular liberals are weak on "values." Paul's study confirms globally what is already evident in the U.S.: When it comes to "values," if you look at facts rather than mere rhetoric, the substantially more secular blue states routinely leave the Bible Belt red states in the dust.

Murder rates? Six of the seven states with the highest 2003 homicide rates were "red" in the 2004 elections (Louisiana, Mississippi, Nevada, Arizona, Georgia, South Carolina), while the deep blue Northeastern states had murder rates well below the national average. Infant mortality rates? Highest in the South and Southwest; lowest in New England. Divorce rates? Marriages break up far more in red states than in blue. Teen pregnancy rates? The same.

Of course, the red/blue divide is only an imperfect proxy for levels of religiosity. And while Paul's study found that the correlation between high degrees of religiosity and high degrees of social dysfunction appears robust, it could be that high levels of social dysfunction fuel religiosity, rather than the other way around.

Although correlation is not causation, Paul's study offers much food for thought. At a minimum, his findings suggest that contrary to popular belief, lack of religiosity does societies no particular harm. This should offer ammunition to those who maintain that religious belief is a purely private matter and that government should remain neutral, not only among religions but also between religion and lack of religion. It should also give a boost to critics of "faith-based" social services and abstinence-only disease and pregnancy prevention programs.

We shouldn't shy away from the possibility that too much religiosity may be socially dangerous. Secular, rationalist approaches to problem-solving emphasize uncertainty, evidence and perpetual reevaluation. Religious faith is inherently nonrational.

This in itself does not make religion worthless or dangerous. All humans hold nonrational beliefs, and some of these may have both individual and societal value. But historically, societies run into trouble when powerful religions become imperial and absolutist.

The claim that religion can have a dark side should not be news. Does anyone doubt that Islamic extremism is linked to the recent rise in international terrorism? And since the history of Christianity is every bit as blood-drenched as the history of Islam, why should we doubt that extremist forms of modern American Christianity have their own pernicious and measurable effects on national health and well-being?

Arguably, Paul's study invites us to conclude that the most serious threat humanity faces today is religious extremism: nonrational, absolutist belief systems that refuse to tolerate difference and dissent.

My prediction is that right-wing evangelicals will do their best to discredit Paul's substantive findings. But when they fail, they'll just shrug: So what if highly religious societies have more murders and disease than less religious societies? Remember the trials of Job? God likes to test the faithful.

To the truly nonrational, even evidence that on its face undermines your beliefs can be twisted to support them. Absolutism means never having to say you're sorry.

And that, of course, is what makes it so very dangerous.

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedi...ostemailedlink

[LennyH]

I really wish God gave a shit about the environment. He/she is apparently very conservative, so you'd think he'd, at the very least, understand our problem with dependence on foreign oil and give Georgie some marching orders.

[rollhead]

Originally Posted by LennyH

I really wish God gave a shit about the environment. He/she is apparently very conservative, so you'd think he'd, at the very least, understand our problem with dependence on foreign oil and give Georgie some marching orders.

Hell, God probably looks at it in geological time. He's probably surprised that we are still around, fucking up the neighborhood, and haven't self destructed yet.

He looks at the Empire State Building and can't wait to see -- in a couple hundred years or so -- it as the world's largest planter and bird house.

In a couple of millennia, there wont be much left of us -- just a few piles of nuclear waste, and some kind of freak organism will probably be eating that down fast.

Our only chance is if we invent a man/cockroach hybrid.

[Paul B]

Our only chance is if we invent a man/cockroach hybrid.

It's already been invented: Tom Delay.

[Rob C]

Interesting piece. I remember seeing a poll after 9/11 in my building's elevator screen (I get all my interesting poll numbers on the elevator) in which people were asked whether 9/11 was caused by too much or too little religion. The overwhelming opinion was that, of the two, 9/11 was the result of TOO LITTLE religion! Unbelievable. Talk about "nonrational beliefs".

[rollhead]

Originally Posted by Paul B

It's already been invented: Tom Delay.

he's that far up the evolutionary chain?

[shrugs]

I am kind of sick of hearing of God these days. God supposedly washed away my city recently. Some say he did it to purify a modern day Sodom. Not sure why my heathen ass was saved from any damage. He had three shots to take some of my stuff. I have all my stuff at my girlfriends house that survived. A 10X10 storage unit closer to the city that remained unscathed and 20 or so boxes in my parents garage across the river in Algiers that are high and dry.

[lynn]

If that's the case, can Las Vegas be far behind. I hope their sorry asses are hiding behind their favorite slot machine when it happens.

[kedoane]

Or even San Francisco?

[patricia]

There is nothing more vile than public piety.

Since President Bush named Jesus as his greatest influence, he might be well advised to re-read how Jesus, in one of his sermons, descibed a hypocrite as a "whited sepulchre". Never has that description been more apt.

[Clay Fink]

http://www.takoma.com/archives/copy/...0/sin1005.html

Sin of the Month • Abby Bardi



Anger Revisited

As everyone knows, Anger is, unlike most of the sins I've written about, one of the original Seven Deadlies, which means that like Greed, Avarice, Lust, and Inadequate Lawn Care (okay, you caught me, I made that one up), it is traditionally thought to be a bad thing.

So I'd like to get over my anger momentarily and write dispassionately about the events of the past month--the disaster that was Hurricane Katrina and the even bigger disaster that was the Bush administration's response to it--but when I contemplate the hurricane, I find that I am beside myself with rage.

Bush's response to Katrina was so incredibly inadequate that even the most cynical among us were amazed. Once he had bestirred himself from his vacation, his reactions to the crisis followed a Kubler-Ross-esque pattern of bumbling: first, My-Pet-Goat-like paralysis at hearing the news, followed by quick Denial. He went through an Anger phase in which he attempted to blame others, then did a little Bargaining, finally ending up at a qualified form of Acceptance in which he appeared to take responsibility, but really, didn't.

The reason for Bush's PR problem was clear to anyone following Karl Rove's whereabouts during the catastrophe: Bush's brain had gone missing. Rove had been, like the rest of the vacationing Bush administration, off-duty when the hurricane struck, sidelined, apparently, by kidney stones. This is why, rumor has it, Bush's rhetoric about the hurricane did not turn oratorical or even coherent until his speech in front of theatrically lit historic Jackson Square in which he pledged a "reconstruction" program for New Orleans that would give millions of federal dollars to his cronies at Halliburton, et al. The program would be funded by a combination of "budget cuts" (i.e., cuts in services to poor and middle-class people) and loans from China, though he didn't mention that last bit.

I'd tell you more about the speech, but talking about it, and about Bush in general, makes me too hopping mad. If I think about how Karl Rove crawled back from his sickbed, presumably under a rock, to mastermind this giant payola scheme that will not only make Bush-loving corporations richer but will further enable the shrinking of federal programs that actually help ordinary people, such as the evacuees of New Orleans, and will facilitate the Bushites' goal to take government and, in their friend Grover Norquist's oft-quoted phrase, "drown [it] in a bathtub," I might just burst a blood vessel.

The other night, to get my mind off Bush and Katrina, I went to a party. Well, not actually a party-- a meet-up for the Humane Society to protest the slaughter of horses, hosted by my friend Bob Pyle, whose album of loopy animal rights songs, Apples and Oranges , is a must for all vegetarians (see www.bobpyle.com for details). I thought it might be nice to sit around talking about helping animals for a while, but it was just depressing. The facts about horse slaughter, of which everyone should be made aware ( http://www.hsus.org/pets/issues_affe...rse_slaughter_
common_myths.html ), are utterly sickening. I sat reading a horrific brochure for a while, then when I couldn't handle it any more, struck up a conversation with a guy wearing a T-shirt with a picture of a cage crammed with battery hens.

We chatted for a while about the chicken biz, agreeing that it is unconscionable. Then I happened to mention that I thought that the real problem was not just with the treatment of animals, per se, but with the larger issue of the take-over of America by right-wing corporate scoundrels, and that the fact that 39 percent of the American people (at last count) were such idiots that they couldn't see what the Bush administration, whose tentacles reach everywhere, was up to, made me furious.

When I said the word "idiots," the chicken guy looked shocked. In a kind, reasonable way, he opined that it was better to talk to people in a kind, reasonable way about the issues and not to alienate them with undue emotionalism. It is only through polite discourse, he said, that we can change people's minds about the issues. I told Chicken Guy that I never talk to people who disagree with me about Bush because first of all, I don't know any, and second, I would just end up getting mad and screaming at them, so there would be no point.

"Well, then, what is your strategy?" he asked.

I told him that I write for a local independent newspaper. "My strategy is to write about politics--or rather," I amended, "I try not to write about politics, but I always do."

"And you try to change people's minds?"

I thought about it for a minute. "I rant about things," I said, "and then people who already agree find that comforting--at least, I hope they do."

"And does that make you feel better?" A twinkle of superiority was beginning to develop in Chicken Guy's eye.

He knew what my answer would be. "No," I conceded.

I could tell that he was about to ask me why I don't try to use cool, calm reason to change people's minds, to make them more aware of the issues--horse slaughter, for example, which until the party I had known nothing about. Luckily, at that moment, my friend Helena showed up, and after some polite mingling, she and I went to my house and watched Bollywood videos for the rest of the night.

"Bob keeps emailing me pictures of starving St. Bernards," Helena complained to me. "I wish he'd stop it. I'm upset enough as it is."

Helena's husband just left her for another woman. Today would have been their anniversary. I'm very angry at her husband, who was also my good friend, but at least their split was not Bush's fault.

"I know what you mean," I said as we watched Karisma Kapoor do a disco dance choreographed by someone who had obviously seen too many Pat Benatar videos.

But even after the dreamlike colors of Bollywood--my drug of choice--I could not get the horrific images of the horses out of my mind, or the starving St. Bernard that Bob had emailed everyone a picture of, or the people who were left by our drowning federal government to die in New Orleans, the people I had seen sobbing on the news with such heart-wrenching stories that hardened reporters were crying with them, or the people who have died in Iraq because of our senseless war, the soldiers who have been blown to pieces and have come home in coffins we're not allowed to see, or have come home without limbs, or the photos that we all saw from Abu Ghraib, or the photos from Abu Ghraib that we haven't seen yetÉ.All of these awful pictures whirl together in our minds all the time, if we're paying attention, and even if we try to forget them, 61 percent of us evidently can't. We live in the calm eye of a kaleidoscopic storm of horror, with events circling around us that emanate not, it seems to me, directly from George W. Bush, since it's evident that he's not in charge of his own agenda-- witness his utter paralysis without his henchmen--but from the web of evil he has surrounded himself with, the shadowy goons of the vast right-wing corporate lobby that has enlisted Bush, a vacuous narcissist, as a point man in their plot to rape the world.

So I would argue that in the face of the death and destruction that have followed in the wake of the catastrophic Bush presidency, anger is not a sin, but a necessity. Deadly or not, if we don't feel anger--if we're not trembling with rage at what's happening to our country, to our world-- then we are evil bastards or fools.

[RainyDay]

So god just kicked Pakistan in the ass real good. If you are a Christian, does that mean god is punishing them for hiding all those radical islamic madrasas, or if you are a muslim, it means they are getting punished for being friendly with the US? You gotta love this religion thing. You can mold it to fit whatever bigoted point of view you have.

One thing I don't quite understand, though. Florida is barely standing after what, five or six hurricanes over the past year+. What's god saying there? Florida has been in the news a lot what with their practice of denying people their right to vote so could there be a connection? Either that or maybe god's punishing them for Disney World. "Verily I say unto thee! One tacky, colossal theme park, appropriately in Orange County California, is enough for humankind!" Maybe it's for hosting the MTV Music Video Awards two years in a row. Especially this year when Diddy proved he is the corniest, most self involved, and worst dancing rap icon ever. That alone merits a category 4.

But the big questions is this: What is god telling the good people of the US by allowing Gee Dubya to become the president? Depending on your religious outlook, god is either rewarding the US for its good works all over the world, or is being punished for having the laziest, most undeserving electorate ever that enjoys wasting the lion's share of the world's resources. I can't decide.

[patricia]

I don't think that God has anything to do with any of this. There is a certain arrogance evident in an administration, any administration which annoints itself as God's cat's paw.
This is not about God's will, or God's vengence. This is totally of human origin, with a healthy dollup of natural disaster mixed in. Contrary to some, we are not in control of everything. But, the things that we are in control of we are likely to let slip through our collective fingers.
For example, although the first term that George W Bush given by the Supreme Court was taken out of the public's hands, the second term was not. Unless fraud can be proved, he was elected to his second term. So, never has a phrase, "author of one's own misfortune" been more apt.
So, here we all are. The question really is WHAT NOW??? Is there a way out of this morass? If so, what?
The good thing is that Bush is in his last term. The bad thing is that there is no guarantee that a clone of him is not in the wings for '08 to finish the job of totally isolating the U.S. from the rest of the world.
A dilemma of Biblical proportions.

[Phil_Meloy]

Well at least he's finally come up with a slightly more credible reason for invading Iraq than the threat of weapons of mass destruction.

[jazzy mary]

Originally Posted by Phil_Meloy

Well at least he's finally come up with a slightly more credible reason for invading Iraq than the threat of weapons of mass destruction.

Good one, Phil!

[tippy]

In the New Jersey governor's race, there's a frequently aired television opposition ad against Republican candidate Doug Forrester touting him as George Bush's choice. Does that mark a large portion of the NJ constituency as Satanists?

[tristano's ghost]

Originally Posted by patricia

There is nothing more vile than public piety.

Since President Bush named Jesus as his greatest influence, he might be well advised to re-read how Jesus, in one of his sermons, descibed a hypocrite as a "whited sepulchre". Never has that description been more apt.

No kidding... the Pharisees are in the halls of power. I liked what Kerry said during the campaign: "I don't wear my faith on my sleeve." Faith isn't something to be ashamed of... and it also isn't something that should be trumpeted regularly as proof of one's "virtue" and fitness for public office. It's a private issue and should not be made into some crude instrument of political propaganda. I won't hold my breath waiting for the GOP to stop doing that, though.

[Dr Dave]

I have, at tedious length elsewhere, fulminated about that portion of Bush's voting base that believes he is doing the Will of God on Earth. It is somewhat distressing to learn that Bush is willing to confide to those he sees as "true believers" that God speaks to him.

By the way, I have it on good authority that God had intended to bring severe earthquakes and pestilence to major cities in Canada in retribution for Canadians making homosexual marriage legal. But he didn't allow for windage, and it ended up on Pervez Musharraf's back porch.

I don't really know, but I suspect God has a complicated relationship with President Musharraf, who is worshipful but not at all Christian. Then there's that bin Laden fellow who is allegedly holed up near the Musharraf ranch, yet inexplicably unfindable.