Mexico Demands U.S. Allow More Immigration

[John P. Cooper]

Oh. my! They demand it! El Exigente!


Mexico Demands U.S. Allow More Immigration
Jan 10 2:09 AM US/Eastern

By MARK STEVENSON
Associated Press Writer

MEXICO CITY

Diplomats from Mexico and Central America on Monday demanded guest worker programs and the legalization of undocumented migrants in the United States, while criticizing a U.S. proposal for tougher border enforcement.

Meeting in Mexico's capital, the regional officials pledged to do more to fight migrant trafficking, but indirectly condemned a U.S. bill that would make illegal entry a felony and extend border walls.

"Migrants, regardless of their migratory status, should not be treated like criminals," they said.

The countries represented at the meeting _ including Mexico, Nicaragua, Guatemala, El Salvador, Honduras, Belize and Panama _ created a working group to design a regional policy to avoid migrant abuse and to follow the course of the legislation.

"There has to be an integrated reform that includes a temporary worker program, but also the regularization of those people who are already living in receptor countries," Mexican Foreign Relations Secretary Luis Ernesto Derbez said.

Derbez has called the measure _ which passed the U.S. House of Representatives last month but still must go before the Senate _ "stupid and underhanded," but was somewhat more restrained on Monday, saying "it's not the Mexican government's position to tell the U.S. Senate what to do."

The U.S. proposal has caused widespread resentment in Mexico, where some have accused President Vicente Fox's administration of not being assertive enough in opposing it. Fox has called the bill shameful.

Mexicans working in the United States are a huge source of revenue for Mexico, sending home more than $16 billion in remittances in 2004, Mexico's second largest source of foreign currency after oil exports according to the country's central bank.

Fox's spokesman, Ruben Aguilar, defended the administration's record on Monday, telling reporters that migration has declined in recent years, though official figures show it remains at historically high levels.

Aguilar also said migrants "don't emigrate because they lack work, but rather for a series of other reasons, cultural reasons or better living conditions."

[Gary Sisco]

Don't talk with your mouthful. If it weren't for immigrants, very especially illegals, the grocery shelves in the US would be empty and Americans would starve. There aren't enough Americans willing to work hard enough in the fields to bring in even the iceberg lettuce crop, never mind anything else.

The construction industry and food processing industry would also, the both of them, come to a near halt, for the same reasons.

This seems to be one issue that Alfred E. Bush actually does seem to understand, which would place him in a very small minority of Americans who understand where their food comes from and how.

[Darryl G. Thomas]

Gary has a point. You don't hear the business community bitching about illegals. In California they're bitching about the lack of. Who's going to pick all those veggies on the cheap? You can't outsource migrant farm labor to India.

[Gary Sisco]

It's not just the wages; it's the assbusting, backbreaking *labor.* That's something most Americans are long done with. They very much like having jobs but working is another matter.

[Scott Dolan]

Originally Posted by Gary Sisco

Don't talk with your mouthful. If it weren't for immigrants, very especially illegals, the grocery shelves in the US would be empty and Americans would starve. There aren't enough Americans willing to work hard enough in the fields to bring in even the iceberg lettuce crop, never mind anything else.

The construction industry and food processing industry would also, the both of them, come to a near halt, for the same reasons.

This seems to be one issue that Alfred E. Bush actually does seem to understand, which would place him in a very small minority of Americans who understand where their food comes from and how.

Agree 100%, Gary.

I used to have a different take on this, but having looked at it a little more closely over the years I now understand exactly how complex an issue this really is.

And though I don't know that the shelves would be empty, as you suggest, I sure as fuck don't want to end up buying a $4 tomato, or a $10 head of lettuce.

I used to be in the "deport them all" camp. But next to socialized medicine, I can't think of a more economically disastrous situation for the U.S. than this.

[Darryl G. Thomas]

Not just the shelves. Anyone in the DC area needs to take a look around at who's doing all the contruction work, lawn maintenance, cleaning the buildings, road work etc. Basically all the grunt work us "natives" don't want to do.

Locally we had a big controversy in Herndon, VA where they wanted to build a day-laborer center. Our local branch of the Minutemen got all hyped and some nation anti-illegal immigrant organization got involved.

It still got built. The locals liked it because there was no more haniging around the local 7-11 and the guys could get gigs.

[chuckyd4]

Just another chime in for what so far seems to be a unanimous opinion. I could never understand the "they're stealing our jobs" attitude, when immigrants (especially illegals) are simply filling holes in the economy that others aren't willing to.

Also, I could never understand why there isn't more focus in this question on the issue of why exactly people are willing to risk their lives to live in absolutely squalid conditions within the US. Or why people are willing to stay in those situations long-term once they get there. If you really want to stem the tide of illegal immigration, it will be more productive in the long run to make the situation in Mexico (for example) one in which people have job opportunities, security and long-term prospects.

[Darryl G. Thomas]

cd4,

That's the one problem I have with Fox "demanding" anything of the US. The problem isn't with the US border. The problem si why is Mexico so screwed up that people are willing to risk their lives crossing the desert to leave.

See, there's BS on both sides of the issue. The illegals supply cheap labor that we (the US) exploit, and in the case of the Mexican government the immigration controversy offers a smoke screen to them.

If I were a Mexican citizen I'd have to ask my government why don't I have a standard of living comparable to those of the US and Canada?

[Monte Smith]

I want to chime in with the majority here, too. Illegals happen to be essential to our economy. It's a shame they're illegal immigrants when they should be legal migrants. Immigration should happen only legally, and our border should be an inpenetrable wall with many wide open, welcoming gates. Unless you're a frigging Saudi or something.

[Darryl G. Thomas]

The Bushes and the Saudi's are tight. No way they could get excluded.

Besides, the price of gas is high enough as it is.

[Monte Smith]

Yeah, Bandar can get it, unfortunately.

[groover]

[Darryl G. Thomas]

Do I see tongue?

[Monte Smith]

Ugh, that's so disgusting.

But let's be fair. It isn't just the Bush clan who are twiddling toes neathe their skirts with the ibn Saud hillbillies. I recall Jimmy Carter telling such a heartwarming anecdote on the Tonight Show. He says his grandson is always asking such interesting questions. One time recently the boy asks, "Granddaddy, are you gonna die?" Carter is startled. He says, "Why no time soon, dear. I'm in good health." The boy looks puzzled. He says, "You're not ever going to die?" And Carter is touched, he thinks the boy is worried that one day he will lose his beloved grandfather, the President of the United States. Carter says, "Son, we all die one day. That's the way that God created the world. And it's alright." Then the boy asks, "Granddaddy, when you die, will we still get to go to Bandar's house?"

Yuk yuk yuk. The kid just likes swanning around in Saudi palaces like you get to do when you're America's ruling elite. Good story. Real charm. Unless like me, your stomach turns at the idea of an American President breaking chow with a fucking Saudi unmentionable. But I know, they all do it. And I still don't know if the royals are worse than the regulars or better, they all cling to the same fumey cluster of crap in my humble opinion, which is tempered by the genuine conviction (no fear) that it's wrong to judge an individual by his nation or bloodline. Fucking Saudis.

[John P. Cooper]

I wish I had more time to go into this in depth, but most of your points don't hold water.

Also - I'll wager that most of you do not live in Southern California.

Go to other parts of the country and you will see that the jobs that Americans allegedly wont do, are absolutely done by Americans and not illegals.

Store shelves empty? A total fantasy and smoke screen.

The only people who want a huge number of illegals here are the people who pay them shit wages and work them to death, so that they do not have to pay legal citizens proper wages and a living wage.

Our economy would not collapse if illegal workers vanished tomorrow. The wage sale would rise for all since only the poorest of the poor will work for shit wages. Once that labor force was gone, the pay scale would rise.

There will be no 20 dollar heads of lettuce.

There is no job that american citizens have not done and will not do. You just have to pay them

in other countries where there is no cheap labor force in agriculture, they have developed machinery that does much of the grunt work done in this country by virtual labor slaves. There is no incentive for agri-biz to invest in machinery when they have peons to do the work for them.

There is so much you do not know.

This is all the time I have to spend on this for now.

Except to say that the job markets once 'designed' for teenage and younger workers and minority workers - entry level positions - have all but vanished with the tidal wave of illegals here in SC.

[Scott Dolan]

I lived in south Florida. Trust me, you've got nothing on me when it comes to having witnessed the ills of illegal immigration firsthand. Shit, you've just got the Mexicans out your way for the most part. Down there, they've got it all, Jamaicans, Haitians, Mexicans, Cubans, you name it.


But let's start off small, shall we John?

Companies who employ illegals for pennies lose their workforce. They are then forced to hire American citizens/legal migrants/etc. for no less than the federal minimum wage, plus pay that dastardly workmans comp and insurance. so their overhead has just blasted through the stratosphere.

How will these companies regain their losses?

[shrugs]

Originally Posted by John P. Cooper

I wish I had more time to go into this in depth, but most of your points don't hold water.

Also - I'll wager that most of you do not live in Southern California.

Go to other parts of the country and you will see that the jobs that Americans allegedly wont do, are absolutely done by Americans and not illegals.

Store shelves empty? A total fantasy and smoke screen.

The only people who want a huge number of illegals here are the people who pay them shit wages and work them to death, so that they do not have to pay legal citizens proper wages and a living wage.

Our economy would not collapse if illegal workers vanished tomorrow. The wage sale would rise for all since only the poorest of the poor will work for shit wages. Once that labor force was gone, the pay scale would rise.

There will be no 20 dollar heads of lettuce.

There is no job that american citizens have not done and will not do. You just have to pay them

in other countries where there is no cheap labor force in agriculture, they have developed machinery that does much of the grunt work done in this country by virtual labor slaves. There is no incentive for agri-biz to invest in machinery when they have peons to do the work for them.

There is so much you do not know.

This is all the time I have to spend on this for now.

Except to say that the job markets once 'designed' for teenage and younger workers and minority workers - entry level positions - have all but vanished with the tidal wave of illegals here in SC.

When they invent a machine to hang sheetrock and rebuild rooftops, let me know.
Until then, devastated areas need the xtra laborers. Here in New Orleans, many locals haven't come back or don't want to come back to help rebuild the city. In stepped many people from all over Mexico and Central America.
We couldn't do it without them.

How often do you go to the other parts of the country where locals are doing the jobs Mexcians do in California?
Or are you just getting this secondhand from the media?

[John P. Cooper]

New Orleans has a whole set of unique situations in play. I spoke with someone last night who had just recently gotten back from there. He seemed to indicate that the entire place was a Catch 22 of why things will take forever to get back to normal there.

There are many out of work legal citizens of all kinds who can do that labor for a decent wage.

I do not know what the construction industry pays there, but here in SC, all you have to do is look outside any Home Depot supplies store and see dozens of illegals willing to work for less then the cost of legal and/or union workers.

You can do it w/o them, if you pay a fair wage,

I have hear reports from numerous people in the construction trade here in SoCal and the ones that do legal labor with union or fair pay wages are being slaughtered by the illegals willing to work cheaply b/c the pay in their own countries was far worse...if there were even jobs to be had. So they come here, get exploted and treated like shit, work for far less, undercut the labor market. throw legal citizens out of work, send lots of their earning home to Mexico and regions south, live 10 to a household, spend as little as possible, use all the social services for free, use fake names and fake addresses, send their kids to public schools which eats up even more social services and in the end the economy tanks, cities and school districts go bankrupot, hospitals close down, and on and on.

All of this is documented as happening right here in SoCal.

[John P. Cooper]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

I lived in south Florida. Trust me, you've got nothing on me when it comes to having witnessed the ills of illegal immigration firsthand.

Shit, you've just got the Mexicans out your way for the most part. Down there, they've got it all, Jamaicans, Haitians, Mexicans, Cubans, you name it.

But let's start off small, shall we John?

Companies who employ illegals for pennies lose their workforce. They are then forced to hire American citizens/legal migrants/etc. for no less than the federal minimum wage, plus pay that dastardly workmans comp and insurance. so their overhead has just blasted through the stratosphere.

How will these companies regain their losses?

Sorry, Scott-

I didn't see your post til I saw the big one below yours.

If a compnay is relying on cheap near slave labor to survive, they have a problem.

The issues of workman's comp and insurance are evry valid. i have heard of any number of companies moving out of this state or simply closijng up shop.

However, using illegal labor threantens much more than the structure of an individual company. It is an insidious threat to the economy in toto.

There are lots of problems.

Many wise minds say that it ids long over due to activally pursue and fine companies large and small that employ illegal workers. Once they are fined enoughm they will stop hiring and the problem will evidence some level of control.

Mexico needs to clean up their own house and not maintain conditions that force their citizens to break the law by entering this country illegaly, work illegally, etc. Hard workers should be rewarded, but not at the expense of a region's or a nation's economy.

Most of the USA is nowhere near up to date on these issues b/c they have not seen them, but they will soon.

Need I mention the crime factor?

[John P. Cooper]

Thumbs down on both Bush and Fox.

Bush is a total sell out on this issue to placate his own interests and his own pals and co-gold-holders.

[Scott Dolan]

Many wise minds say that it ids long over due to activally pursue and fine companies large and small that employ illegal workers. Once they are fined enoughm they will stop hiring and the problem will evidence some level of control.

John, you still have not answered my initial question. And now you're adding to it.

Do you think these companies, out of the oodness of their hearts, will just allow their profit margins to be drastically cut?

[shrugs]

Originally Posted by John P. Cooper

New Orleans has a whole set of unique situations in play. I spoke with someone last night who had just recently gotten back from there. He seemed to indicate that the entire place was a Catch 22 of why things will take forever to get back to normal there.

There are many out of work legal citizens of all kinds who can do that labor for a decent wage.

I do not know what the construction industry pays there, but here in SC, all you have to do is look outside any Home Depot supplies store and see dozens of illegals willing to work for less then the cost of legal and/or union workers.

You can do it w/o them, if you pay a fair wage,

I have hear reports from numerous people in the construction trade here in SoCal and the ones that do legal labor with union or fair pay wages are being slaughtered by the illegals willing to work cheaply b/c the pay in their own countries was far worse...if there were even jobs to be had. So they come here, get exploted and treated like shit, work for far less, undercut the labor market. throw legal citizens out of work, send lots of their earning home to Mexico and regions south, live 10 to a household, spend as little as possible, use all the social services for free, use fake names and fake addresses, send their kids to public schools which eats up even more social services and in the end the economy tanks, cities and school districts go bankrupot, hospitals close down, and on and on.

All of this is documented as happening right here in SoCal.

Where are these laborers who can do the work? Why aren't they here?
Myself and everybody I know either went back to old jobs or picked up someone elses that left for good.

End of the discussion for me. From your last paragraph, I can see you are a very bitter person.

[John P. Cooper]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

John, you still have not answered my initial question. And now you're adding to it.

Do you think these companies, out of the oodness of their hearts, will just allow their profit margins to be drastically cut?

Sorry. I did not realize the question was not rhetorical and/or directed at me.

What those companies allow or do not allow is irrevelant. They will do what they have to do to stay in business or they will go out of business.

If they have to raise their prices to stay in business, they can try passing them along to the buyers. If the buyers do not buy, then the sellers will have to come up with a way to make their service or product sellable at a price people will pay.

Simple business formula.

Innovation, not illegal and slave-like labor, is the ultimate answer.

[John P. Cooper]

Originally Posted by shrugs

Where are these laborers who can do the work? Why aren't they here?

Myself and everybody I know either went back to old jobs or picked up someone elses that left for good.

End of the discussion for me. From your last paragraph, I can see you are a very bitter person.

I don't know if they are there of if they are not there. I am not there, so I don't know. I/We are relying on you to provide accurate information.

Wait a second - you and other people picked up someone else's job b/c they left for good? What does that have to do with illegal laborers?

End of discussion for you, you say? Unlikely. That's what they all say before they come back.

I didn't realize you were so perceptive as to determine my emotional mind set from a paragraph. Silly stuff.

[Gary Sisco]

Bullshit, John. There are clearly many jobs that Americans won't do and bringing in the harvest is one of them. Wages be damned, you can count the number of Americans who'll work in the fields.

And if the wages paid were up to Americans' extraordinary demands, considering the energy most expend (or actually that most don't expend) at "work," we'd starve because the price of groceries would go up by about 1000%.

Hell, even here in Vermont, a hell of a way from Mexico, it's been the case for decades, including times of very high unemployment, that there'd be no apple crop, no berry crop, and no vegetable crop, if it weren't for migrant and resident Jamaicans. In short, not only the state's crop but its economy as well would shit the bed without them, period.

The same is very much the case with labor at the ski areas, another industry upon which the state's economy stands or falls. None of them can operate today at all, much less at a profit, without immigrant labor, both seasonal and resident.

One apple farm I was very familiar with because a Jamaican friend did almost all of its labor (and in the truck garden also) so I was there a lot and got to know the farmer quite well. That year in particular, he very nearly lost his crop because he simply could not hire anyone. No one was interested, at all. He looked as far afield as Boston for laborers to bring in the apples, and succeeded in finding three or four -- who all lasted almost an entire day.

Thing is, in jobs like that, you actually have to work to make any money, because there are no wages. They pay piecemeal. The harder you work, the more money you make. If you spend your day joking with your friends or smoking cigarettes or complaining about the black flies, or what have you, you might find yourself with $12 in your pocket (as the people in question figured out before lunchtime and so most failed to return to even finish the day). My Jamaican friend on the other hand was making close to $100 a day because he spent his day picking apples. I don't know about where you live, but where I live $100/day is damned good money. But you only get it if you work for it. The measure at the end of the day is the number of boxes you filled with apples, not the amount of tongue wagging about this or any other subject.

We'd all be better off if more "work" was measured that way, you ask me.

In any case, the facts are the facts: The US's agricultural economy, its construction economy, and its food processing economy, are all entirely dependent on immigrant labor, both legal and illegal, with the illegal being by far the largest proportion. These are economic facts, not opinion, not speculation. And they constitute the bedrock reason you don't hear a whole hell of a lot of complaining about immigration from capitalists, large or small, in those industries -- all of which are fundamental drivers of the larger economy. If any one of them goes to shit, for any reason, recession is the most positive result possible.

So, don't talk with you mouth full unless you want to talk again with your belly empty.

[Gary Sisco]

As far as "demands" from foreign heads of state go, Americans ought by now to realize that their own do far more demanding of others -- very often at gunpoint, in fact -- than the other way around.

So, again, complain after you've thought, as opposed to before.

[Coda]

x

[Gary Sisco]

I don't know who "most of you" is but a fact is a fact. Americans don't harvest their own food and they're not going to. They don't do a whole hell of a lot of construction labor, either, or food processing.

Whether the labor is "allowed" or not, the economic reality remains the same.

What you're "supposed to do" is up to you, but if you like to eat, try smartening up. Or get out in the fields yourself.

(Right.)

[Gary Sisco]

The smarter thing would be to change immigration law so that it reflects, at least, reality.


But, no ....

Let's just reinforce ignorance and prejudice.

This country was, after having been seized by immigrants, built by immigrants (including very much the four hundred years of forced immigration in the form of slavery).

Just because some of us arrived on different boats changes nothing.

I've never heard ski tourist one complain about his or her sheets having been changed or his or her bathroom cleaned by immigrants, legal or illegal.

I *know* however how loud they'd squawk if the sheets weren't changed or the bathroom wasn't cleaned. And the anti-immigrants would likely squawk the loudest because the most detached from the reality of who does the assbusting work in this country and who doesn't.

[Gary Sisco]

It's also hilarious to hear the complacency that greets millions of jobs having been moved "offshore."

What's the difference? Only Americans are to move about as they see fit for their own private economic interest? Everyone else in the world must on the other hand stay put?

So, a lot of people from other places offshore to the US.

Too bad.

Myself, I'm thankful for the immigrants. They continue, as they always have, to make the US a more interesting and dynamic place. Without them, aside from economic paralysis, the place would be some fucking boring, let's face it.