Failing Grade

[Coda]

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[lynn]

The right has been dismanteling the education system in this country since Reagan was in office. You must be too young to remember.

[Coda]

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[bluenoter]

Originally Posted by Coda

There are other things on my list, but I'd probably need to be the head of the Department of Education in order for it to work. I know I'm not a teacher or administrator, but I think I know how to manage a school's learning disciplines.

Why do you think so?

Among other things, you'd be decimating the funding for your own department, and you'd be throwing the public education system to the dogs.

I don't normally watch TV, and I can't watch most videos online, but let me take a wild guess: The reporter for the 20/20 special was John Stossel.

Edit: Yep.

[Enforcer]

Originally Posted by Coda

The truth is that the teachers are incompetent, by and large (not Goodspeak, he's okay in my book), because they aren't given a competitive environment like those of us with real jobs.

One of the more Memorable Posts of a young 2006.

Teaching isn't a real job, huh? You might not appreciate it now, but once you graduate from high school, you might develop an appreciation for what teachers have to deal with.

[tippy]

Stossel is an annoying nincompoop.

[Solo Jazz]

Oh my! The blame game: it's the Teachers' fault; it's the Parents' fault; it's the school system's fault! No wait, it's Teacher's union fault. The Republicans did it!

At some point, when we wake-up, we will realize as a 'society' we are failing our most-valuble resource - OUR CHILDREN!

Truth is, we've not been very serious about education in the U.S. for many years.

Talk about a war-on-terrorism - here's something for you to think about: I think it is terroristic to fail our children in terms of preparing them for the future!

I wonder what 200 plus BILLION (the amount spent on the WAR in Iraq) could do for school systems across the country. ...inquiring minds....

[tippy]

LOL, Nags.

[patricia]

To paraphrase, an excellent teacher is worth his/her weight in rubies.
It's true that many teachers are in schools who should never have chosen that vocation. But, it should not be forgotten that there are just as many who are frustrated by what they face, on a daily basis. They have to deal with indifferent students, who have parents who blame their children's lack of motivation on teachers when they should be taking an equal part of the blame, if there is blame on themselves and on their children.
Teachers should not be expected to somehow, magically, inject knowledge into students who have not been taught to value it. Parents quite often don't understand their very important part in the education equation. Not just parents, but the entire community has a stake in whether the children become educated members. Teachers and the school do not exist in a vacuum. Longer school years and contempt for the very ones who are doing the hardest work, teaching, is not the way to improve the system.
Along with the lessons being given, reinforcing those lessons and doing their part to motivate their children to learn is the parents' job. When children and adolescents are undisciplined little savages, it's hardly the fallow ground in which learning can take place. What school these youngsters attend matters little if they are not pre-conditioned to expect to work hard and learn not just academics, but self-discipline in order to go on to be productive members of the larger community, after they have completed their education.
I have enormous repect for those who teach our children, despite the obstacles they encounter, the primary one being indifference.

[Coda]

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[Enforcer]

Originally Posted by Coda

Larry, teaching is not a COMPETITIVE profession in that you cannot be terminated for underperformance or incompetence. I didn't think I would have to dumb down my statement....wait, are you a teacher?

You said it wasn't a real job. In which case you're stupid. No, I'm not a teacher, but I'm schooling you here, kid.

[patricia]

Originally Posted by Coda

Larry, teaching is not a COMPETITIVE profession in that you cannot be terminated for underperformance or incompetence. I didn't think I would have to dumb down my statement....wait, are you a teacher?

I think I'm missing something. Just how old are you, Coda?

[Coda]

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[Enforcer]

That's pathetic, Coda. You're talking to a woman. No fucking class.

[Chris D]

John Stossel justs plays up whatever is in the conservative whipping bag.

[tippy]

Well I saw a good portion of the report and while I doubt the statistics were presented objectively and wondered why they presented the education system of only one European country, I did think it was interesting how in Belgium school monies are attached to each student and each student can choose where he goes to school, thus the schools have to be effective enough and provide a quality of education that will please the parents of the students who go to them. I don't think it's so farfetched. Our educational system does seem truly mired in ineffectual bureaucracy. In the report there were examples of non-public schools (of rural and urban populations) who were providing a better, more effective education for less money per student (and more money by the way per teacher). I don't see anything wrong with looking at alternatives because it does seem there certainly are some changes to be made. One basic premise of this report was that more money being spent has not led to a better education.

[Tanager]

My wife taught (seven years), my mother taught (either twelve or thirteen years), and so did I, albeit only for a couple of years while in grad school. I dare say that the vast majority of actual *teachers* I met through them were pretty damned good.

And just to parrot what's already been said, Stossel is a windbag of the first order, famous for overly generalized and selectively researched positions. His current political orientation (he began on the other side of the spectrum, IIRC) hasn't a thing to do with it. He's just an entertainer, nothing more.

[tippy]

Did you know he wanted to be a ringmaster but Barnum & Bailey wouldn't have him (cuz he's a big nincompoop). Seriously though he's turned 20/20 into a supermarket tabloid. You could grasp all the information of this program in 2 minutes. It's rare 20/20 nowadays to spend a whole hour on one subject--it's usually those stupid 10 myth things that are totally unwatchable.

[tippy]

Well, I'm sorry Dennis left. We really could use an insider's view of what it is the schools really need in order to reach kids more effectively.

[Tanager]

Originally Posted by tippy

Seriously though he's turned 20/20 into a supermarket tabloid.

When you're looking to Barbara Walters for gravitas, you're in trouble.

[tippy]

Yeah Babs' one trick was what making celebrities cry? (I heard she used pictures of dead puppies and pinching tactics to do so.)

[Tanager]

Originally Posted by tippy

Our educational system does seem truly mired in ineffectual bureaucracy.

I don't dispute the "bloated bureaucracy" claims - my wife would say as much without hesitation. And it's true that you can't throw money at a problem without constraints and controls - any more than a business could do so - and expect assured success over the long term. But IMHO teachers are the easy whipping boys, because in most cases they're the public face of education, when in fact they have little control over educational policy within their own classrooms, and most are trying to meet higher standards with a shrinking pool of resources. I would happily have seen the Durham schools bureaucracy trimmed to provide funding for school supplies, textbooks, and teacher training.

[Coda]

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[Tanager]

Hrm, I guess I'm on ol' Coda's ignore list. But just in case...

If you're going to argue for making the system for compensating/retaining teachers a competitive one, then you have to have a balanced approach, not one that solely focuses on how to rid systems of underperforming teachers. Teachers are woefully underpaid, especially relative to their importance - teachers are directly responsible for how *all* of us turn out - more so, perhaps, than any other group of individuals, I'd argue, other than our parents. If you're going to look for a way to improve the quality of the teaching pool, then provide incentives for talented individuals to become teachers, ones that go beyond slogans and calls to sacrifice. Demand high standards from teachers, make them answerable to those standards, sure - but compensate them accordingly, as professionals who undergo specialized training to enter their chosen field (and who usually have to continue undergoing training to maintain their credentials, often paying for it out of their own pockets - so let's fund their ongoing training, too, while we're at it). If we, as a society, are willing to pony up and treat teaching as a profession to be respected and admired, then sure, let's think about making it competitive. But the two have to go hand in hand.

[Coda]

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[Enforcer]

Coda, you started a topic shitting on an entire profession. I know lots of teachers, some of my best friends among them. Making a statement asserting that most of them are incompetent, or that it's not a real job, has no basis in fact. These people work a lot of hours, get paid dirt in many cases, and have to deal with kids and parents who don't care about them. And some of them have to worry about getting thrown out a window for not giving out As.

Seriously, it's hard to even read your comments with a straight face. You need to familiarize yourself with an issue at some basic level before throwing around solutions to problems you don't have any personal acquaintance with. The education system is a nightmare of both practical and real problems. But bashing the teachers is the worst possible position to take.

[Enforcer]

Originally Posted by Coda

As for you Nagel: No class Nagel, looks like a bagel, can't run, can't hide, gonna cry sissy guy. Nah nah na nah nah. Come and get me at recess, catch me catch me.

Not bad for a high school kid.

[Dr Dave]

And now I will pontificate, because I can, and because I believe I'm at least partly correct. Consider these five points:

1. Good teachers should make more money than average teachers, and bad teachers should be doing something else for a living. At the moment, these conditions do not apply in most U.S. public schools. Teaching needs to be a dignified profession, and the only known route to dignity in the USA is to be good at your job and well-compensated for what you do. (See Also Point 4 below, coda, for why the Right has wrecked this notion.)

2. Parents are no longer doing as much parenting as they used to. Mom and Dad are at work, trying to make the mortgage payment and pay down some of the Visa bill. As a consequence, a lot of socialization that used to take place at home is now thrust upon the schools. If nobody at home is riding herd on the kids, then the schools will have to do it, and they will need money to make it happen.

3. In fact, coda, the Right has done a lot to wreck public schools, mainly in the area of politicizing teaching and learning. Almost nobody teaches Darwin in the schools, because the school districts just don't want to deal with conservative pressure groups. On this, at least, I am moderately optimistic based on the Dover ruling.

4. The Right has also done a lot to wreck public schools through anti-tax legislation. For better or worse (usually for worse), nearly all U.S. schools are financed through property tax. Property taxes may be a bad idea, but they are the prime source for school funding.

5. Public schools have lost their original mission. The original mission of public schools (You'll find it in The Federalist Papers) was to teach children the workings of democracy. Amazing but true. The Founding Fathers knew that people did not take naturally to such ideas as a three-branch governing system and The Bill of Rights. Somewhere back in the 1960s, public schools gave up on this mission. It is my personal and admittedly radical idea that it is long past time for the schools to take up this mission again, and that were they to do so then all this "private voucher" stuff would go away, because schools would re-assert their function as places where students must go to learn to be citizens. (I hasten to add that it will be a cold day in Hell when this actually comes to pass. But just because it won't happen doesn't mean it isn't right.)

[Douglas]

Originally Posted by tippy

Well, I'm sorry Dennis left. We really could use an insider's view of what it is the schools really need in order to reach kids more effectively.

Me too, largely for selfish reasons, but I hope that Dennis is counting to ten before restating his post.

I'm now doing some work using the results that were probably behind the programme (you can find a lot of information at the PISA website if you are interested). One of the difficulties is taking proper account of the tensions along quite a number of dimensions when you start trying to think about what education can (or even shoud) do and what it is asked to do. For example, the demand for value for money it seems to me has had an adverse impact in some countries by driving education systems towards producing measurable results at the expense of other very legitimate activities, including those that Dennis mentioned in his post. How do you manage to strike the right balance once this genie is out of the bottle?

Finland has probably come out of the international comparisons best overall. One of the factors used to support this result is the high prestige (but not renumeration) of the teaching profession attracting very talented individuals. Not something you can mandate in another country wanting to replicate this success. Korea has also come out of the comparisons very well, but with a public education system that induces a very large proportion of parents hire private tutors for their children. Not something you probably want to replicate.

There is so much to think about for the non-specialist that I hope you keep this discussion going (though preferably without rancour).

[patricia]

Originally Posted by Coda

Younger than you are, you old hag.

If younger than me is all you have going for you, which appears to be the case, I pity you. Even if you deleted the comment, it wouldn't mean that you didn't post it and I didn't see it. As most of our parents told us, once you say something, you can't unsay it. It's out there. How else was I supposed to take your post but as a personal attack? Just saying, "I hope you don't take this personally, but............" doesn't make the remark OK. It's ugly. Period.

But, that aside, the reason I asked was that it appeared as if you were looking at the educational system from the point of view that a student would. Hence my question regarding your age. It was not necessary to revert to schoolyard nonsense. I don't care how old you are except to attempt to put your comments into some sort of context.
I am looking at the system from a different angle, as a parent and as a former student. It doesn't matter how much money you throw at the educational system, students who are conditioned by not just teachers, but by their parents and by the community to learn are more likely to benefit from what they are being taught.
My point was simply that it is not just the teachers who are at fault if students are graduating without taking the lessons being taught with them.