Jazz truth and reconciliation

[blawless]

Are you a jazz snob? Is this something you worry about, or, alternatively, pride yourself on being?

The cutting contest may harken to a bygone age in the music, but among jazz listeners it seems an undying phenomenon, especially lately on the board in the guises of smooth vs. "real" contests. There are some blatant examples of jazz snobbery that I'm guessing are recognizable by everyone. Maybe in these parts the snobbery is most detectable--most acutely felt-- by apologists for more-or-less-market-friendly styles, who feel assailed by those championing ostensibly more authentic (or "out," "experimental," whatever) jazz. Sergio used the term "jazz dick" a while back to describe the phase of arrogant jazz cognoscenti-ism new listeners--inevitably male--pass through en route to becoming confident about their tastes and their knowledge of the music. A clearer example of snobbery than that is hard to come by.

I wonder where else this snobbery lurks. For example, do those of you who prefer "lighter" styles (and likely feel condescended to by fans of other jazz styles) perhaps feel, in your heart, that your music is superior to the pop stuff your non-jazz friends consume? Do those of you who favor the classics of the free jazz canon feel condescended to by the young eai turks, and perhaps return the judgment that it's *their* taste that's dubious? (The use of the term "minions" on the board makes me think something like this is going on.) Do those of you who with eai leanings feel upon you the knowing, pitying eyes of the old pros who can recite effortlessly every Messengers lineup, recording date, and alternate take, including the still-locked-in-the-vault nuggets from those super-important European radio sessions? Surely these examples only scratch all the possible ways jazz listeners create and navigate their personal caste systems. Is there even a there there, or just endlessly co-mingled and inter-conflicting layers of musical authority, disdain and doubt?

I know I am a snob, as much as I regret having to cop to it when honesty insists that I must (and despite the fact my nanoscale musical knowledge can't justify my taking even a remotely snobbish position). But I want to be a better person. But I also want to feel free to state my opinions. Doesn't everyone? But isn't critical-difference-setting a major part of the jazz experience? When it comes down to it, aren't we all part of the problem--and (cue snazzy, jazzy version of "Fanfare for the Common Man"--maybe that electric-piano-heavy alternate take from Getz's '74 big-band tour? You know the one I mean. Oh, you don't? No, I didn't think so...)--equally a part of the solution? So won't you admit that in some way--don't feel bad--you're a snob, too?

[Pete C]

Most of my snob energy is spent on Asian food.

[blawless]

Well, I feel that gravitational pull, too--it's not always disdain for what I dislike, and I didn't mean to imply that it's as basic as that. (For me, it's extremely rarely a matter of actual disdain for other people's tastes, despite the typically unkind things I may have to say.) But I have the feeling that often there's not just a lack of interest, but also a judgment, a confirmation of feelings of one's own superiority of taste, that often separates one's circle of affection from what falls outside it --or from those who listen to that other stuff. That's what I'm getting at.

[RainyDay]

I'm a snob about several things but not music. I grew up listening to jazz (and to music, period) and it's just part of my life. I like everything from Metallica to Leonard Bernstein. How am I going to look down my nose at someone who likes something different? I detest most (not all) rap music but I don't feel superior to those who do like it (but maybe to the people who make it because so many are the most cynical of opportunists).

[Dr Dave]

I am a jazz snob and I see no reason to apologize for it. I think jazz music is intellectually and morally superior to most current pop music; not that that's any great achievement these days. I don't go for moral relativism in music. You don't like my attitude? Call me a name. Which will get you nothing. Or better still, don't respond to my posts.

Steve Reynolds and his minions are not jazz snobs; they are a noisy claque that support avant garde music, the stranger, the better. Reynolds thinks I can't possibly be a serious person because I don't share his enthusiasm for Joe Maneri (an old, easy target). I think Reynolds (and others like him--sorry to pick on you Steve, but you have high visibility here) and his ilk are not serious persons simply because they are so insistent that we don't like Maneri because "we don't get it." As they escalate their claims of superior discernment, so do they lose credibility. With me, anyway.

And you know what I do about all the posts about AG music? I've learned to stop responding to them. I'm not going to be converted. And I'm not going to convert any AG fans. We are united in that we like what we like.

This may not be interpreted as "closed-mindedness." It may be interpreted that I have taste. As do we all. Saying that I have a closed mind because I'm not interested in something you're interested in is just another form of bullying.

A Plea to the Good Doctor,

Forgot the Minions. Forget "the Stranger the better." Forget Joe Maneri (my verdict: I like the album with Cecil McBee, but it ain't nothing special). Forget the annoying "you just don't get it horseshit.

But do keep in mind: There are people who *are* capable of appreciating both Kenny Garrett *and* Peter Broetzmann. I don't think the latter is "the greatest" anything.

But I don't think it's jazz snobbery to suggest that if you listen a little closer you might really dig those Die Like a Dog discs with William Parker and Hamid Drake.

C'mon man. You're part of the tiny minority of people on this planet who claim an affection for both James Chance *and* Steely Dan. Why not be just as ecumenical when it comes to improvised music?

Don't let The Minions Ruin it For You, Baby
(my candidate for official JazzCorner motto)

[Sergio Zamora]

I think we're all a little snobbish. It's hard not to be with Jazz. However, having read the thoughts of JC posters for so long, I've come to the conclusion that we're a lot more open-minded, tolerant, and inclusive than we're given credit for. I really don't sense real hard-core snobbery here for the most part. Occasionally, we'll poke fun at pop jazz or something, and we will definitely not refrain from providing our opinions on different musics - that means if we dig it, we'll rave and if we don't we'll diss. That's called an opinion.

Many of the charges of snobbism are false. It's impossible to say "x album sucks" or "I don't like x musician" or "I don't care for smooth jazz" without some hater calling us on it. Instead, we're supposed to say "it's not my cup of tea". Well, that may work on certain occasions, but I want to be able to be a little more direct than that.

However, that's not to say that the jazz snobs and, as I stated before, "jazz dicks" don't abound. Like I said, it's just a normal phase that a lot of kids and adults will go through in the process of becoming well-rounded, discerning, but tolerant music listeners.

[Dr Dave]

but...but I DO like William Parker. I thought he was the best player at "Fire in the Valley" last year. I thought Jemeel Moondoc had the best band. The VTET is a terrific group.

So have no fear. I object to the antics that go on regarding AG here, but if you think I'd let them actually influence me...well, it's not so.

[Sergio Zamora]

Dr Dave,

With all due respect, you're full of shit. Nobody, NOBODY is trying to convert you. NOBODY really cares if you ever dig Maneri or any "AG". Seriously.

Believe me. I keep the minutes for the Minion weekly staff meeting, and we talk about a lot of things: ea-i World Domination, Uli containment, getting Coke in the soda machines, Bobby Goldsboro look-alikes, etc.

But so far, your name just hasn't come up.

[RainyDay]

Well, that didn't take long.

[Dr Dave]

I'd like to trust you on this, Sergio. I really would.

[Tom Storer]

I don't think I'm a snob - in fact I rarely even deign to speak to anyone so vulgar as a snob.

But seriously, I don't think I'm superior to those with different tastes, and I *know* my knowledge of jazz (like other things) is full of big holes. On the other hand, I don't pretend to like things I don't like, and my frank indifference to things I don't like sometimes makes people consider me a snob. Co-workers sometimes conclude I'm a jazz snob because I know nothing and care nothing about current pop music ("current" being defined as "post-1976"). But I don't think the less of them just because their abysmal ignorance keeps them from seeing the light. No, I sincerely pity the poor, benighted fools.

Wait a minute, I was trying to establish that I *wasn't* a snob. Maybe I should stop here.

[walto]

Originally posted by blawless
Are you a jazz snob? Is this something you worry about, or, alternatively, pride yourself on being?

I don't know if I worry about it exactly, but I do spend quite a bit of time musing about questions regarding the connections (if any) between a supposed objective quality and individual/collective personal tastes. It's a difficult, engaging area.

Oz, while Dave does seem very defensive about this stuff, I think it's based on actual statements by Stevie Rey and a certain reed-playing poster who might be considered the founding minion. Those gents did engage in a kind of prosecutorial advocacy. I think that's dropped off to about nothing over the last couple of years. However, the pissed-offed-ness they produced in the "non-seers" just goes on forever, apparently. Dave's posts here ("I'm a snob & that's good. They're snobs & that's bad.") are great examples of the result of that sort of advocacy.

[shrugs]

The Nearer the Bone, the Sweeter the Meat

[Uli]

Originally posted by walto
Those gents did engage in a kind of prosecutorial advocacy. I think that's dropped off to about nothing over the last couple of years.

Last couple of years, Walto? Well, time is kinda personal tingy but I believe to have read some much more recent declarations about who is stuck in the past. But i agree that they have been laying low for a couple of months. They seem to regroup. Some intelligence suggests that there might be fractional infights around certain strategic questions like what is too jazzy or just jazzy enough or if Dunmall is the real deal. Right now, I think some are just trying to keep their chops up with some proxy fights like pumping certain sports teams. Occasionally they still like to show united strenght. I think a meeting in Brooklyn on this very evening has been heavily reported.

[shrugs]

We don't see it as much because a) people aren't as active posters anymore b) people are hashing out their thoughts elsewhere c)speak out has long played second fiddle to the alley.

BWTFDIK

[Brian Olewnick]

Agenda item for tonight's meeting: Make sure of Walt Davis' loyalty to the cause. He's shown signs of wavering.

[Steve Reynolds]

plus I have been resting and concentrating on my beloved BoSox...



and alas I will not be able to make it to the minion's conclave tonight in Brooklyn,,,,


gotta get the car fixed

[Vince Kargatis]

Context matters a lot. I would be surprised if people here labeled me a snob based on my posts, but a friend of mine whose musical tastes are fairly narrow and focused on what I would call "pop-prog" (e.g. Rush, Spock's Beard, Dream Theater, etc) unconditionally thinks I'm a total snob. And indeed, I probably become more snobby around him, reactionarily.

[Captain Hate]

Any deviation from the "I'm ok; you're ok" horseshit is a good thing, imo. I prefer "I'm great; bite my crank".

[blawless]

I don't pretend to like things I don't like, and my frank indifference to things I don't like sometimes makes people consider me a snob. Co-workers sometimes conclude I'm a jazz snob because I know nothing and care nothing about current pop music ("current" being defined as "post-1976").

Context matters a lot. I would be surprised if people here labeled me a snob based on my posts, but a friend of mine whose musical tastes are fairly narrow and focused on what I would call "pop-prog" (e.g. Rush,Spock's Beard, Dream Theater, etc) unconditionally thinks I'm a total snob. And indeed, I probably become more snobby around him, reactionarily.

Maybe this is another heart of the matter: the common-enough scenario of jazz listeners being labeled snobs by their unconverted peers. Do you think this commoner than, say, classical music listeners being labeled snobs? I'm not sure why, but I do think that's the case--although it seems paradoxical given the longstanding elistist, highbrow rep of classical consumers. Whatever the reasons, if jazz fans give off a bad odor of snobbery, deserved or not, it's not too shocking that the music has its currently marginal popular following. The aura of exclusivity and arcane, refined knowledge has got to have some effect on would-be listeners, including the dynamics of snobbery and counter-snobbery that Vince talks about.

[Dr Dave]

Damn, Walter catches me being illogical. Or at very least neurotic. For the reasons you describe, Walt, I'd say I've earned my neurosis. I'm a good snob! They're bad snobs! (and as soon as I figure out a defense of that statement, I'll be back with guns blazing.)

Meanwhile, I'm playing around with this animated avatar stuff. Beats working.

[moneyp]

I'm not sure if I'm a snob or not. Once every three months or so, I'll tune into the local hip-hop stations, but I think I'm just trying to maintain the illusion that I'm keeping in touch with the common people.

I have frequently been called a film snob by friends because I don't go out of my way to see X summer blockbuster like the latest Star Wars film or MATRIX: RELOADED.

But wait a minute... I've seen THE MATRIX. And THE PHANTOM MENACE. I've seen at least two Farrelly Bros. films that I can remember. I've seen ARMAGEDDON, and INDEPENDENCE DAY and GODZILLA and GLADIATOR. If I'm making a value judgment on a piece of work like the above, at least I have a frame of reference.

Meanwhile, the people that are calling me film snobs have likely never taken in a film with subtitles, unless it was CROUCHING TIGER HIDDEN DRAGON. They likely don't see anything outside of their local megaplexes.

Now if I'm seeing fifty films a year, including blockbusters, cartoons, foreign, independent, documentaries, etc. and they're seeing only five of the strictly blockbuster variety, which one of us is the snob?

[Dr Dave]

Good work, Mone. Don't stop now. Civilization depends on us. Well, I've already fucked up. So civilization depends on you!

[walto]

Doc, consistency is a hobgoblin.

BTW, I love your new avatar!

[bobetterblues]

This is a good thread.

I grew up playing classical music as a child at a conservatory, I never liked the snobbish teachers and musicians in that up-tight world for the most part. I discovered the Keith Jarrett trio wehn I was 12 and it made me cry, then I spent the rest of my adolecensce trying to figure the whole thing out, mostly unsuccessfully in my mind. All the while I was preaching jazz snobbery at its finest to all that would listen. Dissing any other form of music because it wasn't "intellectuall" and because it didn't contain spantaneous improvisation, which at the time I thought was the hardest most rewarding thing in music, and the most downright spiritual.

As the years went by, and the better of a musician I became, I realized that everything and everyone has value for someone, and that isn't a bad thing. This all resulted in the realization that the person I am directly affects what kind of musician I am. If were to have maintained my snobbery and closemindedness, that's how my music would be......

So now, I play in a live hip hop soul band, that I compose a lot of the music for, I play jazz gigs, and I do pop siger songwriter stuff as well. Where I used to only want to play the acoustic piano the rest of my life, now I own a Rhodes, A Korg Triton, a digital organ with drawbars, etc, a vintage Whurly, and a few affects peddles. I love Ornette, Cecil, Mehldau, The Roots, Radiohead, Hamid Drake, any number of electronica artists, Queens of the Stoneage, Shorter, etc.... I feel like if it contains honesty, then it has value for me emotionally and musically.

Am I a snob? You betcha. I can't stand people who don't see all music as universal and who aren't open minded about it. There's nothing that bothers me more, when someone says "He sucks" about an artist that many people respect and enjoy. There is quality in everything, and music is just music.

[fncll]

Somewhere in just about everyone's psyche, each individual remains convinced that they know what is really the best music. Some people wear this on their sleeve (or have it printed on the bat with which they beat us all up about it), some people are very quiet about it. It's the same in all arts. I can't count the number of arguments I have witnessed or been a part of in poetry and painting that are exact parallels of debates in this kind of forum.

So yeah, I know what the real good shit is. Just like I know the taste of fine coffee and where it comes from. But I'm pretty pragmatic-- I'll drink (and enjoy) a cup of fast food coffee just as I'll enjoy a fresh roasted Ethiopian Yrgacheffe.

When it comes to music, I listen to whatever I'm in the mood for, whether it is old jazz or new, or Nappy Roots, Alice in Chains, Barenaked Ladies, Ben Folds, Aimee Mann, Audioslave, or Metallica.

It's much more fun to enjoy what one likes than it is to ninny about trying to fight over what one doesn't...

[walto]

"Somewhere in just about everyone's psyche, each individual remains convinced that they know what is really the best music. Some people wear this on their sleeve (or have it printed on the bat with which they beat us all up about it), some people are very quiet about it. It's the same in all arts. I can't count the number of arguments I have witnessed or been a part of in poetry and painting that are exact parallels of debates in this kind of forum.

So yeah, I know what the real good shit is. Just like I know the taste of fine coffee and where it comes from. "

Given that that's true, and it think it largely is, I wonder: do we have to conclude from it that nobody can be correct when they say something is (objectively) better than something else? Or even if somebody DOES happen to be right in a given assertion of quality--can he/she never have any evidence of this? That's the nub.

[fncll]

I don't have any answer other than that years of studying philosophy and literature and its endless debate about objectivity, aesthetics, relativism, etc lead me to believe that ultimately it is much more productive to focus on what one enjoys and likes, promote what one thinks deserves to be heard, and leave the question of the ultimate arbiter to the philosophers and academics who make their living trying to answer questions which are, quite likely, irresolvable for simple reasons of logic going back through Bertrand Russell, the Greeks, and early Chinese philosophers.

Personally, I think that real objectivity is a myth (but a necessary one), or at least that our objectivity only holds in one particular world that suits our exact context and experiences, and thus generalization is just a game to justify our taste...

But we have to cling to that, don't we?

[walto]

Nice post. Thanks for your interesting comments, fncll.