Thought I had about marketing music....

[Greg]

Hey all. This is probably WAY too involved to actually work but an idea popped into my head about making albums more tempting to buy; multimedia. It's definitely nothing new (the rawkers have been doing it for awhile) but instead of taking the pop/rock example and just throwing a couple of interviews or videos on there, how about jazz and classical albums with some history and analysis on there? One of the big complaints I hear from people about why they're not interested in these types of music is the belief that they have to go through some learning process to "truly enjoy" the music.

To my mind, this would work best on re-issues where there's been some time to gain some perspective on the impact of the music.

Someone must've done this already....

Greg

[blawless]

If you have a bunch of best-of-the-classics jazz CDs you want to hawk, maybe you could interest public TV in running a ten-part infomercial. I don't think that's been done before.

[Greg]

Good ole public TV....

As always, people that REALLY want to learn about music and are willing to put in the effort can always go and find a book or the lazier among us (me) can look stuff up online.

Mostly I'm just thinking out loud here and thought I'd see if it sparked any interest (it hasn't).

Specifically what I'm talking about is taking a recording of a symphony that is regarded as the definitive version, cleaning it up if needed and adding good, in depth info about it on the CD. That way people who don't want to deal with bulky liner notes in 3 languages don't have to and those who are interested in learning more can save the files to their hard drives and browse through it while listening to the music at work or whatever. Make the main text a sort of introduction with links to more detailed descriptions and analyses. Even pictures. Make the layers of detail deep enough that even Universty students can dig deeply into it and come out with something of value to them. This way, listeners can completely ignore it if they like or get as much info as they could want or need.

I think "Classic Jazz" recordings would stand up to the same kind of treatment.

Like I say, just a thought.....

Greg

[Pete C]

Originally posted by Greg
One of the big complaints I hear from people about why they're not interested in these types of music is the belief that they have to go through some learning process to "truly enjoy" the music.

I think that's an excuse or a rationalization. I ended up learning a lot about music that moved me first. Jazz isn't rocket science; people who think it is don't get it, and who says they should? It's all about taste. I think the impetus behind your well meaning idea is a kind of evangelism based on the belief that others should be taught to enjoy the "higher forms" of music that you do (I've accused Goodspeak and Reid of the same). At any rate, I doubt that anybody really wants to sit in front of a computer with a multimedia disc and "go to school."

[mke]

I find the multimedia element of jazz albums woefully unexploited. Artists' House seems to have an interesting take on the matter.

Why not put some live or in the studio footage? Scans of sheet music? Artist talking us through some of the music? A video diary of some sort? etc.

[Greg]

Well, I sit at my computer for 8 hrs a day at work and listen to music on it....so do lots of others and if it was conveniently available to learn a little more about what I'm listening to, why not? even if it's just to look at pictures of Louis Armstrong's old neighborhood.

MKE: that's what I'm getting at, exactly.

Greg

[Tanager]

I suppose the analogy you're driving at might be the extras packaged with DVDs.

But I'm kinda with Pete - if I'm going to be listening to something, I'd rather listen to music, not commentaries about music or the like. And personally, I love good meaty liner notes, as do, I suspect, most other music fans who want to learn more about what they're listening to.

As a software engineer, the less I'm forced to sit in front of a computer to enjoy my hobbies and interests, the happier I am. I once owned a multimedia encyclopedia, and I hated it.

[Sergio Zamora]

I dunno. Treating the multimedium content as extended liner notes might lead to something interesting. For example, it could allow the author to explain certain musical items he or she is trying to describe with actual passages of the music.

One issue would obviously be cost. For most independent cds released, would it be viable to produce so much extra material? Think of technical costs, the authoring expertise, the visual components, etc. I think in a lot of cases, it might not.

[Jazzooo]

Greg--this is definitely a good idea. As you can see, not every diehard jazz fan will jump up and down about the concept, but don't let that dissuade you. I'll bet $100 that if Medeski Martin and Wood came out with a combo CD and DVD, the latter of which featured interviews about how certain tracks got written and footage of the recording sessions and maybe a music video, it would do surprisingly well with their target audience.

Extras don't always have to be great--they just have to be extra, you know? Best would be intelligently produced additions, but if major labels can't even do terrific music CDs consistently, what are the chances that they could hit a home run every time with something like this?

Speaking only for myself, I just bought the new Steely Dan album and had the option of getting the CD only or the CD and a humorous DVD. Even though i'd heard good things about it, I decided to pass on the DVD (it only added $6 to the price, but I just wasn't in the mood. I bought a few other CDs and a magazine and when I got home, I saw that I had picked up (and paid) for the wrong SD version. I now have a DVD to watch!

[mke]

"And personally, I love good meaty liner notes"

Making the liners multimedia make them all the meatier, IMO.

As for cost, I'm sure there are enough software people on JC to create some kind of low-cost program of some sort, no? Or enough web-designers to create a sort of "website on the disc" multimedia content, just with HTML and Flash.

A niche market?

[Tanager]

Originally posted by mke
Making the liners multimedia make them all the meatier, IMO.

Not in the way I like. I don't like being tied in front of a computer to read 'em, and that's my primary complaint about multimedia anything. I'm not saying this is a bad idea, and I'm sure some folks would dig it. I just like being able to sit on the couch and read liner notes in front of my stereo, take said liner notes to bed and read 'em there, etc. I spend far too much time in front of a computer (12-14 hours on a good day) to want to do it any more than necessary. Maybe others would feel differently.

[Mark Kleinhaut]

Isn't everything being talking about already available from artist's websites? If you already have to sit at your computer, the online version is just as accessable with several added benefits, ie, it's kept up-to-date and may offer the opportunity to make contact by email.

[blawless]

Like a lot of youse guys have said, there's a surely lot to be exploited with multimedia and there must be a niche market for this. But I don't think the idea is going to go too far. You'll never see this done in support of the more experimental, independent music and labels that might have the most new and interesting stuff to offer potential listeners--the resources and support base just aren't there to make it profitable. (I saw on Drimala the other day that Okkadisk, one of the real stalwarts of the neo A.G. scene was having some difficulties. Man, if that's the case, what hope is there for all the far smaller catalogs and artists?) I think Greg is right about the "classics" having the most potential for this treatment, but hasn't this already been done to a large extent--if not in DVDs or computer formats (and I agree with Tanager that few are going to want to take the latter route) then in endless re-releases and deluxe boxed treatments? Ken Burns has certainly meddled enough. If potential listeners aren't daunted by the volume of all this material--so many greats, such a rich tradition, etc., etc.-- they might still get hung up by the stale didacticism that "broadening the young listener base" usually involves. If you're a young fan starting fresh, and thinking there's something really cool in the music, only you don't know what it is, I think it's likely that you'll be turned off by a slickly packaged presentation of all the stuff you "need to know." I think the most interesting jazz has thrived, if you can call it that, via more cultish, word of mouth byways. If that can continue via multi-media, great, but I wouldn't put any money on it.

[mke]

O ye of little faith!

"I just like being able to sit on the couch and read liner notes in front of my stereo"

I don't see this as replacing traditional liner notes.

"Isn't everything being talking about already available from artist's websites? "

Have you been to very many jazz musicians' websites? The answer to your question is no.

The info I'm proposing would all be things linked specifically to the album rather than general stuff. It's to be considered "premium" content.

- printable lead sheets
- in-studio footage
- artist interview
and then links to the website and e-mail and other things.

"the online version is just as accessable with several added benefits, ie, it's kept up-to-date"

Maintaining the website implies ongoing costs, whereas developing something around the CD is a one-time cost. Here, nothing needs to be kept up-to-date.

I mentioned using a Flash interface, as it might be a relatively cheap option. It allows for very nice design for a static application such as this, but online, it is much more difficult to maintain.

I think that with a little imagination, there are great things to be done. As Jazzooo said, it's "extras".

[Gentle Giant]

This would certainly be preferable to having an actual track on the CD itself be a talking track; I have CDs by Virginia Mayhew and Ray Charles that I love, but there's one track of just them talking. Drives me nuts. Who the hell wants the flow of music interrupted to hear something I'd just as soon read?

Frankly, my Mac can be finicky when it comes to "enhanced CDs." Especially my enhanced version of Blue Train, which is done in a long out-of-date version of QuickTime. Same with Brother, Where Art Thou, which gives Norton kniptions. Because of that, I tend to be wary of such CDs.

I admit I'm a liner note guy, but it would be cool to have some history with a CD. I mean, take Don Byron's liner notes. He goes to some significatn effort and detail to place his project in perspective. I could get into a clip of Raymond Scott as an extra to Bug Music, for example. I think video CDs or DVDs are the way to go with this. More relaxing to be on the couch rather than slumped over the computer.

[Vince Kargatis]

DVDs are the obvious analogy, but I think the movie-buyer market is significantly different than the music-buying one. The extras are buying incentives for the former (and justify the costs), I don't think enough of the music audience is interested enough to justify the associated costs. There are a few enhanced CDs out there, with videos, etc, but I don't think their presence made a big difference in sales. And as noted, the costs would be high.

So:
- it's been dabbled in, to little market effect
- the costs look prohibitive compared to the payout

Nowadays, I think artists would be better off just going straight to a real DVD project.

[Sergio Zamora]

Mwanji,

The cost limitations I see are not necessarily in the software, which presumably can be reused on many cds, but rather on the content production.

[Jazzooo]

"There are a few enhanced CDs out there, with videos, etc, but I don't think their presence made a big difference in sales. And as noted, the costs would be high.
"

All of this is true, but we are SO at the beginning of this era of multimedia extras that it can only be considered premature to pronounce it dead. Costs are always high at first, and acceptance is often low too. Doesn't matter--if it's a good idea, someone will do it, it will catch on, others will jump on board and innovate ways to do it better and for less. This is how it goes.

By the way, it never occured to me that we were talking about multimedia DVDs that need to be played on a computer. I think a mini DVD that i can play in my TV setup of a recording session for, say, the new Brad Mehldau sessions complete with interviews and footage of composing sessions would make a nice evening's entertainment.

It really has gotten tremendously cheaper to film yourself as you go about your business--probably the biggest single obstacle is decent lighting, whereas it used to be getting a digital video camera.

[RainyDay]

Couple things. Bring back Concerts for Young People to television that focus on jazz and classical. Bernstein did these in the 1960's and it's how I discovered classical music.

I still think jazz needs a pop hook to reach a wider audience. Get some top pop/rock stars to participate on a CD or DVD briefly as a talking head. Interviewing the artist between songs, or something. Maybe sitting in on a song. Look, when Tony Bennett did the MTV Music Video Awards back when and introduced somebody or other with Anthony Keidis of the Red Hot Chili Peppers, he said young people started showing up for his concerts.

[blawless]

Yeah, it's exciting technology, all right, but we're still talking about jazz, right? I think that measured as a percentage of all music consumption, the fan base even for a Meldau or MMW or Bad Plus is still, like... infinitesimal? I can't imagine that it's going to be neat new technologies that play a significant role in reinvigorating the music's popularity. That's only my guess. (I'd personally love to see the 5-hour expanded DVD of Cecil Taylor's music, musings, and backstage bitching. I'm guessing that relatvely few other people in the world would. But who needs those saps?)

[Jazzooo]

"think that measured as a percentage of all music consumption, the fan base even for a Meldau or MMW or Bad Plus is still, like... infinitesimal? I can't imagine that it's going to be neat new technologies that play a significant role in reinvigorating the music's popularity. "

Well, depending on how limited your definition of "the music" is, it has happened exactly this way quite often, in jazz and in other musics. Fusion is only one example--the technology of the actual music-making influenced the actual performances and thus attracted previously disinterested fans. From that came the extremely popular CTI stuff, and even the cultural marketing swirl sometimes referred to as World Music. And today, smooth jazz (which I don't consider jazz but let's include it for the sake of this argument) is a hugely popular music that is largely based on new recording technologies.

My goodness--just take Jaco's startling use of the fretless electric bass in a jazz/rock context, or Hancock's/Zawinul's use of synths--the way these guys used newer technology created worlds of profitable new opportunity for other jazz musicians, and thus upped the visibility of the artform considerably.

Each of these movements represents significant and often long-lived peaks in popularity of jazz or heavily jazz-influenced music.

Cecil Taylor is important, but jazz be more than just Cecil Taylor sitting at an acoustic piano, right?

Oh, and finally--while Brad Mehldau's records may not sell in the numbers of pop stars, they are almost certainly leaning towards the higher end of the spectrum of today's jazz sales. An increase of 25% on one album might not secure his producer's house payments for too long, but even with adjusted expectations--more is better. And frankly, if you're selling 25,000 copies now pretty consistently, then it shouldn't be impossible to sell another 5,000 if you know what you're doing. No one said that a great DVD would turn Little Jimmy Scott into Lil Kim, but an increase is an increase.