The rhetoric from the left

[GregM]

During WW II, the Japanese were searching for a way to demoralize the American forces that they faced. Their psychological warfare experts came up with a message that they thought would work well.

They gave the script to their famous broadcaster, "Tokyo Rose," and every day she would broadcast this same message packaged in various ways, hoping to have an impact on American GI morale. What was the message?
It had three main points:
1. Your president is lying to you.
2. This war is illegal.
3. You cannot win the war.

Sound familiar? the Democratic Party has picked up the same message and is broadcasting it to civilians domestic and abroad, and to our troops and our enemies. The only difference is that they claim to support our troops before they demoralize them.

Come to think of it, Tokyo Rose used to tell the troops that she was on their side.

I am often struck by how similar the rhetoric from the left is to the rhetoric from our enemies. Consider this transcript of a taped al qaeda message:

http://memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=802 (thank you so much memri.org for keeping transcripts of all the terrorist rants aired on arab networks).

Oh people of the West, don’t be fooled by the lies of Blair and Bush that you are free nations, for the only freedom that you have is the freedom to be slaves of your whims and desires. Your children are free to be deprived of their childhood and their innocence. Your women are free to be used as tools of business and entertainment, and all of you as a whole are the slaves of con men and women who rule you. They are your real enemies. If you only knew – they are the ones who drag your countries to the pit of America’s group of scavengers, who seek to ravage the entire globe for the interests of a handful of gangsters and corporate companies. Democracy, human rights, and freedom are all but hollow illusions, with which they tranquilize inhabitants of the human farms which they control. The Muslim world is not your backyard. The Muslim world is not Germany, Japan, or South America. The honorable sons and daughters of Islam will not sit down, watching you spread your evil and immorality and infidelity to our land. The honorable sons of Islam will not just let you kill our families in Palestine, Afghanistan, Kashmir, the Balkans, Indonesia, the Caucuses, and elsewhere. It is time for us to be equals – as you kill us, you will be killed, as you bomb us, you will be bombed.

Come on. This islamist guy with an RPG launcher on his shoulder articulates perfectly the position of the far left.

[Doc Martin]

Sounds more like right wing rhetoric to my ears. Nice try though.

[Gary Sisco]

I still have to crack up over the dims being referred to as a left. I was in the left for 30 years and never met a leftist who thought of the dims as anything other than a bourgeois party of the right. Hell, that party, as a whole, is to the right of Nixon on many issues.

[Scott Dolan]

Originally Posted by Doc Martin

Sounds more like right wing rhetoric to my ears. Nice try though.

Oddly enough, whenever someone comes up with analogies comparing Bush's tactics to those of, say, Stalin or Hitler, everybody around here seems rather satified with themselves.

What I would prefer to see is a complete refutation of what Mr. M has laid out.

[sonic1]

Yes, the democrats are being led by fascists! That is what it is!

I have been fooled all this time!

I am going to run out and get babtized quick and inudate myself with AM radio before those god damned democrats take away my freedoms.

[Scott Dolan]

Oh my.

This IS fun!!

If I were to respond to any of the Bush is a fascist who has turn America into a police state type threads with this type of empty, sarcastic rhetoric I would be burned at the stake.

Oh wait, that already has happened. Several times.

[sonic1]

That's crap scott. If that were true, then why have not Gordon, Monte, Coda, et al been likewise fried?

For a jazz forum, I think opinions about here are quite diverse-something us Democrats are hoping to stamp out, we hate your freedoms so.

[Scott Dolan]

Originally Posted by sonic1

That's crap scott. If that were true, then why have not Gordon, Monte, Coda, et al been likewise fried?

For a jazz forum, I think opinions about here are quite diverse-something us Democrats are hoping to stamp out, we hate your freedoms so.

We have something in common. I have a nice Dodge also.

Gordon and Monte know when to keep out of a bunch of silly horseshit, and for some odd reason Coda has left the site after editing a great number of his posts to read nothing more than "x".

Besides, you know what I'm saying is 100% true.

That's what makes this thread so much fun.

[sonic1]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

We have something in common. I have a nice Dodge also.

Gordon and Monte know when to keep out of a bunch of silly horseshit, and for some odd reason Coda has left the site after editing a great number of his posts to read nothing more than "x".

Besides, you know what I'm saying is 100% true.

That's what makes this thread so much fun.

I don't think it is liberal sentiments exactly that are at odds with you when you are fried. You have a loud way about you and when, as you put it, the Bunch of Silly Horseshit arises, you are often in the center of it. It isn't that what you say or do is any more wrong, but putting yourself at the helm does put you in the position of being the Most Visable Culprit, and easily targetted.

I must say that I will miss Coda's rants, they were great fun.

[Scott Dolan]

Why are you avoiding the subject at hand?

Once again:

If I were to respond to any of the Bush is a fascist who has turn America into a police state type threads with this type of empty, sarcastic rhetoric I would be burned at the stake.

Nobody, including myself, would get away with the kind of empty dismissals that have been posted in response to this thread in the situation mentioned above.

So, let's hear it.

[rollhead]

I am just glad that Scotty has a new friend. I think he was feeling kind of lonely around here now that Coda and Willy have kind of dropped out.

[Doc Martin]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

Oddly enough, whenever someone comes up with analogies comparing Bush's tactics to those of, say, Stalin or Hitler, everybody around here seems rather satified with themselves.

What are you saying, that makes it ok? wrong is wrong, right?

[Tanager]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

Gordon and Monte know when to keep out of a bunch of silly horseshit

I'm going to regret this, but I couldn't disagree more. Monte is a self-avowed troll (his words, in his own post) who enjoys ruffling feathers of those with differing opinions. I don't begrudge him his fun - no blood, no foul, I say, and people who don't like his posts can ignore them.

Gordon has never come across as being of a political vein that is so easily catagorized, and when he posts, it's usually something fairly well-reasoned, whether one agrees with his views or not (I think even Gary's had kind words, and repeatedly so, for the generally intelligent content of Gordon's posts - correct me if I'm wrong.), so I'm with you there. But Monte's often been only too happy to wade into the "silly horseshit" and provoke others (who should freakin' know better) into piling it higher. But I reiterate - most everyone here is an adult, and if you're getting so pissed off at the screen by someone else's posts that you feel yourself drawn into some silly flamewar, get up and walk away.

[rollhead]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

Oddly enough, whenever someone comes up with analogies comparing Bush's tactics to those of, say, Stalin or Hitler, everybody around here seems rather satified with themselves.

What I would prefer to see is a complete refutation of what Mr. M has laid out.

I guess it depends on whose ox is being gored. I don't doubt that Clinton was guilty of some doublespeak -- and very obviously of splitting semantic hairs -- but Bush is a very serious offender.

As someone pointed out -- perhaps it was Bob Herbert -- all you have to do is to look at some of Bush's proposals and see clearly that he is more than just parsing the truth -- he is stretching it beyond its snapping point.

The "Clear Skies Initiative" is really not. It might more accurately be called the "Dirty Skies Initiative."

While I agree that there are many environmental extremists, who want the whole loaf or nothing at all, and there are many, many steps we can take to significantly reduce pollution by using far less than draconian means .

But, from what I have heard about Bush's environmental policy -- and many other initiatives -- is they aren't moderated measures. They are, in fact, steps backwards. They are regressive. Not progressive.

Why isn't he honest with us about that? Why can't he come out and say "These environmental standards are damaging to our economy. Here is a way we can help improve the environment in a way that is less onerous to our economy"? Instead, he tries to give us a snow job.

I used to cover environmental issues for a newspaper. I remember talking to a waste-water treatment manager who said that something like 98 percent of particulates and suspended solids could be eliminated from wastewater through the use of very inexpensive lagoons. Instead, the environmental fantatics wanted the communites to spend millions and millions of dollars on expensive technology that would eliminate 99 percent of the particulates.

Why not take the 98 percent and NOT bankrupt local water improvement districts for the sake of that extra 1 percent? I think that most reasonable people might agree.

The problem is that both sides want it all or nothing. And Bush's lack of credibility comes from the fact that he is so OBVIOUSLY in favor of business interests over the environment, or many other progressive initiatives.

He has even said -- publicly -- that his base is the "have and the have mores."

Why shouldn't many Americans distrust him when he claims he is working for the common good? He's not. He has more or less admitted it.

And why CAN'T he be compared to Stalin, who was the master of doublespeak, just like Bush is? Can you show me how he is not?

Read 1984 again, and you see a lot of "Bush Speak" in there. Stuff like "War is Freedom," etc. It sounds just like we are hearing from Bush.

Meanwhile, Tokyo Rose didn't cut any mustard with Americans. She called FDR a liar, and he was too beloved by most Americans to even consider the truth in that statement.

FDR was loved, and was CLEARLY on the side of the "average" American.

Bush has a documented track record of lying, isn't loved, and is CLEARLY on the side of the privilged American.

I know my grandfather -- the coalminer -- knew that FDR represented his best interests. Just like I know that Bush does not represent mine.

And yes, I think our president is a liar. Most definitely.

[sonic1]

If I were to respond to any of the Bush is a fascist who has turn America into a police state type threads with this type of empty, sarcastic rhetoric I would be burned at the stake.

What gets you burned at the stake is not your opinions scotty. It is your style. That is what I was trying to say, not skating any subject.

Besides, Bush is a fascist who has turned america into a police state.

[rollhead]

Originally Posted by GregM

I am often struck by how similar the rhetoric from the left is to the rhetoric from our enemies.

I am often struck by how "facts" are tarred as "biased" by the right.

The media can't report the "fact" that Americans are being killed in Iraq, because that is giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

The media can't report the "fact" that Americans are being wiretapped, or that is treasonous.

The media can't report the "fact" that Abramoff was a Republican operative, because that would be biased.

Any time the media reports a "fact" that might be damaging to this president or his party, it is immediately branded as "biased" by this administration and his party.

I am often struck by the fact that the rightwing tries to tell us that facts, by their very nature, are biased.

[Scott Dolan]

Ok, I promise this will be the last post where I rub all of your noses in shit.

Love all the non-answers.

Oh, and rollie, there's nothing new about Mr. M, he's been around for quite some time.

[rollhead]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

Ok, I promise this will be the last post where I rub all of your noses in shit.

Love all the non-answers.

Oh, and rollie, there's nothing new about Mr. M, he's been around for quite some time.

Scotty, you are so hard on me. And I thought we were friends.

You fucking vaporized my ass, AGAIN.

You taking judo lesson from folks over in "Other Music"?

[Scott Dolan]

Originally Posted by rollie

And why CAN'T he be compared to Stalin

For the same reason that liberals can't be compared to Tokyo Rose.

[Enforcer]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

for some odd reason Coda has left the site after editing a great number of his posts to read nothing more than "x".

I think he left because I called him a stupid fucker or something like that. Those red x's turned out to be his own sort of "coda." Hahahahaha.

[Darryl G. Thomas]

To the original poster. First off, what evidence do you have that the troops in Iraq are being demoralized by the critics of this war? Am I the only one who's heard the Pentagon's claim that the morale of the troops is high? Was the Pentagon lying?

Also, I believe I read in a recent article that re-enlistment (note the "re") in the Army is good. They're having a hard time getting new recruits, but the guys who've been stationed in Iraq and Afghanistan aren't leaving the forces in droves.

[Scott Dolan]

Originally Posted by Larry Nagel

I think he left because I called him a stupid fucker or something like that. Those red x's turned out to be his own sort of "coda." Hahahahaha.

Hahahaha...............

Eh, I'm sure he'll be back.

[Paul B]

This guy (Mr. "M") is a rabidly pro-Israel hawk. I wouldn't take him seriously.

[rollhead]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

Hahahaha...............

Eh, I'm sure he'll be back.

I hope so. I always enjoyed my tag-team matches with Coda and Scotty.

Here are the two of them taking me down in the "cage."

[Scott Dolan]

Originally Posted by Paul B

This guy (Mr. "M") is a rabidly pro-Israel hawk. I wouldn't take him seriously.

Again, Paul, if I were to attack the messenger instead of the message(which I have been guilty of many times, I admit)I woujld not get away with it.

Who cares if he is a pro-Israel hawk or a grand dragon of the KKK?

I want to see people deal directly with the issue, not the messenger.

Our good friend rollie went to great lengths to prove that Bush is a fascist which was a rather inspiring "yeah, but", but I still haven't seen any true refutation of Mr. M's initial post.

[Scott Dolan]

Originally Posted by rollhead

I hope so. I always enjoyed my tag-team matches with Coda and Scotty.

Here are the two of them taking me down in the "cage."

Coda is my boy, but he is still a Newsmax brand of conservative.

I didn't necessarily consider him "help" while taking you down.

[GregM]

Wasn't stalin a socialist dictator who threw hundreds of thousands of his own people in gulags, among other atrocities?

Maybe I'm wrong, but that doesn't seem like bush. Can't the left come up with some better analogies?

Scott correctly mentions the left has been fond of nazi analogies, which are probably worse than the Stalin ones. Godwin's law, anyone?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

[rollhead]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

For the same reason that liberals can't be compared to Tokyo Rose.

Tokyo Rose was really a patriotic American and tried her best to do what she could in a bad situation.

But Stalin and Bush are evil doers.


Iva Toguri D'Aquino (born July 4, 1916) is frequently identified with "Tokyo Rose". Born Ikuko Toguri in Los Angeles, California, she was raised and schooled within the United States and graduated from the University of California, Los Angeles with a degree in Zoology. Through high school and college, she was popular and generally held in high esteem as a loyal American.

After school, she worked in her parents' shop until July, 1941. That July she decided to go to Japan in order to visit an ailing relative. Unfortunately for Toguri, she left the U.S. without a passport and had to apply to the US Vice Consul who forwarded her request to the mainland. This would result in her being trapped in Japan after the outbreak of hostilities the following December.

Following the outbreak of war, Toguri was pressured by the Japanese government to renounce her American citizenship, which she refused. She did take a job as a typist at a Japanese news agency and eventually worked in a similar capacity for Radio Tokyo.

In November 1943, American POWs forced to broadcast propaganda selected her to run a radio show called The Zero Hour, which broadcast from 6pm–7pm Tokyo time. Toguri's radio name was "Orphan Anne". She reportedly addressed in alternate as "Your favorite enemy, Anne" and "Orphan Annie". Her radio program was intermixed with music and her total on air speaking time was generally about 20 minutes. This radio program earned Toguri an unimpressive 150 yen or about $7 per month. Her selection was mainly due to her inexperience in broadcasting and soothing voice. The POWs felt she'd do little harm to morale.

After the war, she was arrested on September 5, 1945 in Yokohama and was tried for treason after attempting to re-enter the United States in 1948, supposedly due to a media uproar. By this time she had married Felipe d'Aquino, a Portuguese citizen of mixed Portuguese and Japanese descent.

Iva Toguri D'Aquino stood trial for eight "overt acts" of treason at the Federal District Court in San Francisco in July 1949. Neither Toguri nor any of the other women called herself Tokyo Rose: the name was invented by GIs and applied by them to any female Japanese announcer. During what was at the time the costliest trial in US history (over half a million dollars), the prosecution presented 46 witnesses, including two of Toguri's former supervisors at Radio Tokyo (both of whom later admitted to having committed perjury) and a few soldiers who could not distinguish between what they had heard on radio broadcasts and what they had heard by way of rumour.

Toguri, for her part, denied during the trial that she had committed treason. Ordered to make propaganda broadcasts along with other prisoners of war, Toguri claimed she and her associates subtly sabotaged the Japanese war effort. The American and Australian prisoners of war who wrote her scripts assured her she was doing nothing wrong and immediately after the war General Douglas MacArthur's staff and the United States Justice Department cleared her of wrongdoing.

Her former supervisors at Radio Tokyo under government pressure gave perjured or otherwise distorted testimony that was instrumental in her conviction. Count VI (the only count on which she was convicted) claimed, "That on a day during October, 1944, the exact date being to the Grand Jurors unknown, said defendant, at Tokyo, Japan, in a broadcasting studio of The Broadcasting Corporation of Japan, did speak into a microphone concerning the loss of ships." The supervisor at Radio Tokyo gave the following evidence:

"I said to Toguri I had a release from the Imperial General Headquarters giving out results of American ship losses in one of the Leyte Gulf battles, and I asked that she allude to this announcement, make reference to the losses of American ships in her part of the broadcast, and she said she would do so."
Another co-worker testified that Toguri said:

"Now you fellows have lost all your ships. Now you really are orphans of the Pacific. How do you think you will ever get home?"
Toguri was fined US$10,000 and given a 10 year prison sentence, of which she served more than six years. D'Aquino appealed her case to the public on the television program 60 Minutes, and was pardoned by outgoing President Gerald Ford on January 19, 1977.

In 2004, actor George Takei announced he was working on a film titled Tokyo Rose, American Patriot, about Toguri's activities during the war [1].

[GregM]

Evil doers?

Now you're using the same language as dubya whom you hate.

[Scott Dolan]

Originally Posted by rollie

Tokyo Rose was really a patriotic American and tried her best to do what she could in a bad situation.

Another gross evasion.

C'mon rollie, I expected more from you than this.

Call me a rightwing slimebag for comparing you favorably with Tokyo Rose. Wail on about how I am a stooge for those who are stealing your money. Anything!!!

This is pitiful.

If you cannot capitalize on this situation, all hope has officially been lost.