Possible Iraqi death squad captured

I just heard on NPR that our military has captured 22 men dressed in police uniforms apparently about to execute a Sunni man. If so, it is the first concrete proof of death squads operating in Iraq.

[Darryl G. Thomas]

This is cold blooded. But maybe the Sunnis had it coming to them?

I mean the insurgency is Sunni driven. What's the bodycount for Sunni on Shiite violence versus Shiite on Sunni violence?

As a matter of fact, I've been amazed at the level of Shiite patience. Here's what I think. There's a strong possibility that once the Coalition of the Willing leaves (and they will someday) a lot of old scores are going to be settled. And collectively, there are more Shiites and Kurds than there are Sunnis.

[LennyH]

Originally Posted by Darryl G. Thomas

As a matter of fact, I've been amazed at the level of Shiite patience. Here's what I think. There's a strong possibility that once the Coalition of the Willing leaves (and they will someday) a lot of old scores are going to be settled. And collectively, there are more Shiites and Kurds than there are Sunnis.

I'm with you, Darryl. And I don't see any reason that these people will stop this sort of thing when they don't believe in the direction their country is going in. At least one group is always going to feel disenfranchised. Is there any reason to think these people will start thinking of themselves first and foremost as Iraqis rather than Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds? Don't think so.

We (the US) have made broad assumptions about Democracy as a stabilizing force and that Democracy is the cure to what ails the Middle East. I fear that, in the end, we're going to learn a hard lesson about this. I certainly don't condone Saddam's actions or the way he ruled, but I think it took a brutal dictator to keep these 3 disparate groups of people living together in peace.

What could stop this sort of thing? Brutality and fear.

[john williams]

Originally Posted by LennyH

I fear that, in the end, we're going to learn a hard lesson about this.

No argument there but it wasn't like we didn't see this coming. Enforced democracy is a ludicrous concept.

[Scott Dolan]

Originally Posted by JBW

No argument there but it wasn't like we didn't see this coming. Enforced democracy is a ludicrous concept.

That it is. But only looking at it from a very selfish point of view. I'd be willing to bet that Palestinians and Iraqi's are kinda digging it.

[crawjo]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

That it is. But only looking at it from a very selfish point of view. I'd be willing to bet that Palestinians and Iraqi's are kinda digging it.

I agree. I also think it is somewhat insulting to insist that Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds are somehow inherently incapable of curbing their prejudices against one another and living together peacefully. This is the sort of idea that was used to justify colonization, i.e., that the group being colonized are too savage and backward, and thus require the firm guiding hand of the paternal father to keep them from hurting each other.

[LennyH]

Originally Posted by Face of the Bass

I agree. I also think it is somewhat insulting to insist that Sunnis, Shiites, and Kurds are somehow inherently incapable of curbing their prejudices against one another and living together peacefully. This is the sort of idea that was used to justify colonization, i.e., that the group being colonized are too savage and backward, and thus require the firm guiding hand of the paternal father to keep them from hurting each other.

That's a stretch, Crawjo. I (I assume you were referring to me) never said or implied that they were incapable of living peacefully and certainly never implied that they were savage or backward.

You usually make sound arguments, but I have no idea where you're coming from here. Everyone in the World is *capable* of living peacefully. But people still choose to kill each other.

[LennyH]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

That it is. But only looking at it from a very selfish point of view. I'd be willing to bet that Palestinians and Iraqi's are kinda digging it.

I'd agree with you as well, Scott.

My original point was just that it's wrong to assume that democracy will, necessarily, always be a stabilizing force or that people in the Middle East will automatically try to use democracy to gain more rights or freedom. We've seen this in Palestine and Iran recently. The people made their choices there and they chose to have more fundamentalist governments.

I believe that the Bush administration is very taken aback with all of this because they had some fantasy about how they could transform the middle east through democracy. Problem is, many of the people there don't like us and don't want to be like us.

[Scott Dolan]

That may be a pretty significant oversimplification.

That would be like saying that we don't like them and don't want to be like them. The differences are cultural, it really has little to do with like or dislike.

The Bush admin may not like what's going on, but I do for the simple fact that the people are now having their voices heard. This kind of freedom should only whet their appetite for more expanded freedom as time goes by.

[Darryl G. Thomas]

Face of the Bass is crawjo? When did that happen?

I look at it this way. Sunnis and Shiites have been fighting for how many years? So the Brits draw a line in the sand and now they're all Iraqis? I wish it was that simple.

What's that psyche theory, projection? When the West thinks of democracy they think of the "liberal" tradition established by the West. They assume Islam wants the same thing. I think the latest elections in the Middle East goes against that theory. They appear to want the vote. But they also appear to want a theocracy too. And name one religion that promotes tolerance for non-believers.

[Scott Dolan]

Originally Posted by DGT

Face of the Bass is crawjo? When did that happen?

Oopz, sorry about that, brother.

He made the switch while we had you heavily drugged for the interrogation.

[Darryl G. Thomas]

And what was the reason? Artistic? Schizoid?

[Scott Dolan]

Douchebaggery.

[LennyH]

I think we see eye to eye on this, Darryl.

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

The Bush admin may not like what's going on, but I do for the simple fact that the people are now having their voices heard. This kind of freedom should only whet their appetite for more expanded freedom as time goes by.

I hope you're right, Scott. We'd like to think that there is a natural and logical progression to Democracy and that it will lead to more freedoms. But can we assume that? Based on what I see so far, I'd say no.

They're having their voices heard in that they have been able to choose their leaders, but they're choosing leaders who may deny them many of the freedoms that we enjoy today. And they knew this when they elected them. Iran is a perfect example of this.

[Solo Jazz]

Originally Posted by jazzbluescat

I just heard on NPR that our military has captured 22 men dressed in police uniforms apparently about to execute a Sunni man. If so, it is the first concrete proof of death squads operating in Iraq.

Thanks for the post, jazzbluescat.

Well, it seems to me, this NPR news tibit does not add significantly to the knowledge-reservior regrading things happening in Iraq. Call them whatever you like, "death-squads", "gangs", "hooligans", "insurgents", freedom-fighters", "Saddam Dead-Enders" (Rumsfeld's term) the fact remains, there are people killing other people in Iraq in large numbers.

Per an account given by a care-taker at one of Baghdad's city morgues, when Saddam was in power, the morgue saw maybe fourteen bodies in a month. Since the invasion, the morgue now receives at least that many bodies in a day!

Bottom-line? There's a lot of killing on-going in Iraq!

....over...

[bluenoter]

Originally Posted by Face of the Bass

the paternal father

That's the best kind!

[Scott Dolan]

Originally Posted by Lenny

Iran is a perfect example of this.

And the dissidents grow.................