Cecil Taylor - 2 Ts for a Lovely T

Clay Fink · June-26th-2003, 01:43 PM

Just picked this up and I am up to disk 4.

A wonderful recording, for one thing. When these guys are on (and they mostly are all the time) there is nothing else like it. At 10 CDs this is certainly excessive (as was the price tag), but from what I have heard so far this is typically brilliant Cecil. Oxley is unlike any other drummer and Parker, though I'm not a real big fan, is at his best on this.

Clay Fink · June-27th-2003, 10:33 AM

This is still sounding great to me.

I saw this trio in '89 here in DC at Blues Alley of all places. I remember a group of out-of-towners sitting at a table right up in front of the stage. They obviously had ducked in for some dinner and some jazz. They were talking loudly at the begining of the set and slowly started to realise they were in musical territory they hadn't counted on encountering. They quieted down, got their bill and cleared out. I always wondered what they were thinking.

blawless · June-27th-2003, 11:22 AM

This is one of those recordings I hope I'll hear, but it's so costly and rare maybe it'll never happen. Even if I had it, how long would it take for me to get around to giving it its proper due? A decade? I may just have to reckon with that hole in my life.

So, what am I missing? I'm sure it's magnificent. But is it the best 200+ odd bucks you've spent in the service of your collection? Does it cast a shadow over everything else you've got? Will you now need to plan your jazz life around it? Maybe silly questions, but you've made a big leap, brother, and I'm kinda curious (jealous).

shrugs · June-27th-2003, 11:49 AM

It's worth the bread IMO and some sets did go for around $185 on e-bay after a few had sold for close to $300. If you have any of the FMP trio cd's, you could dispose of them to help ease the expense. Unless you are a completist, 10 cd's should be more than enough.
Was it the best $200 ever spent? Not IMO, I'd put the Andrew Hill Mosaic set above it(lp set was $198) and the Complete Keynote Recordings set over it as well.

Clay Fink · June-27th-2003, 11:59 AM

Not the best use of $200 ever, but it is a fine performance and probably the best recorded Cecil I've heard in terms of balance, at least with a group. I haven't heared the FMP disks do I don't know how they stand up to this.

I saw Oxley and Cecil play a duet in Baltimore two years ago and they were still dangerous. I cannot think of many artists who have maintained the such a high level of creative intensity well into their 70s.

Anyone checking out the trio dates at the KF in July?

Brian Olewnick · June-27th-2003, 12:13 PM

I think Dave Gitin is coming into town for them. I was undecided, but if we can get a mini-hang together, it might ge a nice idea...

June-27th-2003, 02:37 PM

I think it stands quite close to The Plugged Nickel box as the best live jazz box you can own.

Like the Plugged Nickel box, it really brings you into the dynamics of a working group, lets you hear how they communicate and challenge each other, lets you hear them try different things over the course of a few days time. You get both the process and the product, and so it's what jazz is all about to me. It is an entirely enriching and rewarding experience.

I wish it wasn't so expensive and so limited, there's something a little unfair about that because I really do think it's essential.

blawless · June-27th-2003, 02:47 PM

Sounds pretty great... Cool if there were a sampler disc floating around--this newfangled CD burning technology would sure make something like that easy. That way, you know, impoverished listeners wouldn't have to just dream. I wonder if anyone could make a wild scheme like that work? Not for myself, no sir, but for other listeners, I mean. Well, never mind these crazy pie-in-the-sky ideas of mine. This probably isn't even the best place to chat about them! No wonder there's private email on this site! I suppose I digress... Well, whatever, enjoy the music, guys. Yr pal, Bill

MRS · June-27th-2003, 04:42 PM

What's the July date? I'll see if I can slide into town.

Clay Fink · June-27th-2003, 04:53 PM

Saturday the 12th and Sunday the 13th at the KF. There's 8 and 10 o'clock sets each night.

Anyone know what the main space at the KF is like. I've only been to the Old Office.

Rob C · June-29th-2003, 10:34 AM

I've generally found Cecil more interesting than enjoyable, but I did recently get Celebrated Blazons and have been listening to it with a lot of pleasure, due in large part to Tony Oxley's work.... But I do wonder if I need ten more discs of "the same". Are people finding diminishing returns after the first few discs or is this really worth it?

michaelr · June-30th-2003, 08:49 AM

Does anyone have any idea as to who will be in the trio at the Knitting Factory? I'm guessing it would be with Dominic Duval and Jackson Krall.

Brian Olewnick · June-30th-2003, 10:50 AM

Mike, that's my understanding.

Clay Fink · June-30th-2003, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by michaelr
Does anyone have any idea as to who will be in the trio at the Knitting Factory? I'm guessing it would be with Dominic Duval and Jackson Krall.

Yes.

Quote:

[B]I've generally found Cecil more interesting than enjoyable, but I did recently get Celebrated Blazons and have been listening to it with a lot of pleasure, due in large part to Tony Oxley's work.... But I do wonder if I need ten more discs of "the same". Are people finding diminishing returns after the first few discs or is this really worth it?[B]

It's excessive, sure. But what the hell. A single disk of this stuff is probably enough for anybody. As it is, I've got way more Cecil in my collection than anyone really "needs" to get a sense of him as an artist. Un fortunately, st some point the collector gene kicks in and I "need" more. Since this is a Y-linked gene my wife cannot understand why all this stuff keeps showing up at our door step.

Cecil Taylor isn't the worst of it. In my search for great room clearing recordings I've come home with or gotten off of EBAY, etc. :

LPs of a motivational speaker with a hairlip.
Helen Gurley Brown records.
Sens. Sam Ervin and Robert Byrd.
Jack Lalane.
Spiro Agnew.
Catholic sex education records.

That's not including the "song poetry" suff, sound effects records, etc. .

It all started with "Ponderosa Party Time" and now I can't stop.

Clay Fink · July-2nd-2003, 02:27 PM

Listening to this makes me wonder how the performance with Taylor/Oxley and Bill Dixon sounds. Tony and Cecil are perfect together and Dixon's recordings with Oxley aren't all that bad. OTOH all I've heard about the Victoriaville performance has been negative.

Tom Storer heard the trio with Dixon in Paris and he gave a positive review to it. Tom, have you heard the Victo disc?

Nate Dorward · July-8th-2003, 12:02 PM

Well I've been studiously avoiding replying given that I've already gone on record a couple times saying that I thought the Victo disc with Taylor, Dixon & Oxley was a depressing mess, but I see there's been no reply since the 2nd, so: the Victo disc is worth a listen if you're curious, but it's indeed pretty disappointing, not least because Dixon is way, way too prominent in the mix (considering that he does little more than blow raspberries for the entire session) & Taylor & Oxley are very oddly registered (very recessed & unsubtly split between the left & right speakers). The disc has got some curiosity value, & FWIW has had a few serious defenders, but mostly the response to the disc has ranged from tepid to strongly negative (I'm in the latter camp), & given the amount of superior Taylor/Oxley material out there it's certainly way, way down on the list of priority purchases.

I'd be interested to know if the trio sounded noticeably better & more at ease on the later European tour.

Clay Fink · July-9th-2003, 08:56 AM

Nate, what do you think of those Oxley/Dixon duets on Soul Note? I've got one and while I initially enjoyed it I kind of think Dixon's flatuophone has started to wear a little thin. I remember liking the quartet stuff with Guy/Parker/Oxley.

Nate Dorward · July-9th-2003, 09:21 AM

Clay: I haven't heard those discs; really, I don't follow Dixon's music seriously--just haven't heard anything to make me sit up & take notice. I think the last one I spent serious time with was a Soul Note disc of the 1980s with a tuba on it. (Anyone here heard BD's magnum opus, the enormous Odyssey set?) -- For what it's worth there's an entertainingly savage review of Dixon's recordings with Oxley at the Opprobrium website (now sadly in limbo): go to here & scroll down a bit & you'll find it. There's also an interview with Dixon immediately post-Victo
here, which has Dixon's comments on the gig.

MRS · July-9th-2003, 09:44 AM

Wow. . .dig the decidedly scathing review of 'Dach' on the link Nate posted.

Tom Storer · July-9th-2003, 10:19 AM

Clay, I haven't heard the Victoriaville record of Taylor, Dixon and Oxley, but I'd like to. I really enjoyed their concert, and I have one of the Papyrus records as well, and enjoy it very much.

Rob C · July-9th-2003, 01:55 PM

Thanks for that link, Nate. I got Berlin Abbozzi a couple of months ago (in the same Verge order as Celebrated Blazons, actually...), and I've found it pretty disappointing (though I'll give it a few more listens, at least). I hadn't heard any Dixon before that, but had read a lot of good things.

Jon Abbey · July-9th-2003, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Michael Schaumann
Wow. . .dig the decidedly scathing review of 'Dach' on the link Nate posted.

if you don't know, Bruce Russell (who wrote that) is a member of the free noise/rock groups Dead C. and Handful of Dust, and runs the label Corpus Hermeticum, based in New Zealand. he's not much of a fan of the quieter side of improv, although I wonder if he'd write that review the same way today after playing with Toshi Nakamura and Tetuzi Akiyama a few times in the interim.

the Bill Dixon review is pretty offbase also, another case of a mismatched reviewer and record. since Opprobrium turned into an e-only publication, I find that the only writer of theirs I get much out of is the editor, Nick Cain.

Jon Abbey · July-9th-2003, 02:51 PM

more on Dixon: the two Vade Mecum records on Soul Note are superb, right up there in my top 10 improv discs of the '90's, I slightly prefer Vade Mecum 2. the Papyrus duos are OK, although a bit much, and Berlin Abbozzi is somewhere in between. I didn't get much out of Odyssey, and I haven't liked any of his pre-90's work too much (although I've never heard Intents and Purposes), but those Vade Mecum records are gorgeous.

I'm looking forward to seeing him play for the first time next month at Tonic, hopefully he'll have a better day than he did at Victo (based on reports, anyway).

shrugs · July-9th-2003, 02:55 PM

re: Dixon

Vade Mecum, Vade Mecum II and November, 1981

Those three sessions should be enough to satisfy IMO.

Uli · July-9th-2003, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shrugs
re: Dixon

Vade Mecum, Vade Mecum II and November, 1981

Those three sessions should be enough to satisfy IMO.

A friend of mine who is a huge Bill Dixon fan and loves everything he recorded (including Odysse) swears that "Intents & Purposes: The Jazz Artistry of Bill Dixon" is one his favorite records ever. gonna have a listening session soon.

walto · July-9th-2003, 05:21 PM

FWIW, I picked up Vade Mecum II based on Jon's rec, and liked it OK, but was put off some by the reverb. Anyhow, I wouldn't make it one of the greatest improv discs of the 90s.

Nate Dorward · July-9th-2003, 10:31 PM

(backing up a few posts)--yeah, the piece on Dach is hilarious! Other entertaining milestones on the site include the piece on Toshimaru Nakamura (located here) & the piece on Taku Sugimoto (q.v.). Not that the site is all pans, by any means. Anyway, I wish it were still going--Nick Cain really dispatched discs with panache.

Jon Abbey · July-9th-2003, 11:47 PM

Opprobrium's still active, just on hold for a bit, according to Nick when I saw him last month in London.

does any half-assed pan entertain you, Nate? at least Nick's are well-informed, even if he does have some strong biases (pro Derek Bailey, anti many other guitarists, including Sugimoto and Loren Mazzacane), but that Alan Cummings one is yet another poorly matched reviewer/records, thoroughly clueless. do has no development? maybe if you spend all of your time listening to High Rise and Acid Mothers Temple. come on, Nate, you're above this.

Nate Dorward · July-10th-2003, 09:40 AM

Well, I'd found the Cummings piece amusing in part because it accurately described my experience of much of the Bill Dixon I'd heard, even though it was reviewing completely different discs than those I'd heard. -- Cogently written negative or simply level-toned (rather than wildly enthusiastic) reviews can often seem as rare as hen's teeth nowadays, & I liked Opprobrium for that reason. -- Hm, frankly I'd take Nick Cain's promise that it'll be revived with some skepticism or at least with a lot of patience: he told me the same thing about a year or so ago, & the site has been static now since 2001.

MRS · July-10th-2003, 11:09 AM

Alan Cummings actual occupation is critic of music? How old is he? I plan to employ more "gottas" when I write about music.