The Art of the Saxophone

rollhead · March-28th-2003, 09:52 AM

Hey you guys --

I went to see Michael Brecker last night at the Van Dyck in Schenectady. I notice that he had his lower lip kind of stuck out. I asked him about it. He said that his teacher, Joe Allard, taught him to do that. I didn't ask him if he actually puts his lower teeth on the reed, but I had always understood that you should avoid doing that in your embouchure. Plus, I thought you should put your lower lip OVER your bottom teeth.

I also came across this in the book, "The Cambridge Companion to the Saxophone," in which David Roach writes -- "The main difference between a jazz or rock player's embouchure and that of a classical player is the positioning of the lower lip; in classical sax playing it is more common for the lower lip to be slightly curled over the lower teeth providing the firmness necessary to control pitch and sound in that style, however in general, jazz and rock players turn the lower lip outwards. This used to be heavily frowned upon by educators, but now it is almost universally agreed that, even in the classical style, the tenor sax in particular needs the extra freedom afforded by the turned-out lip. The sound is broadened, allowing many more partials to appear in the tone; the reed vibrates more freely in the mouth, and more of the lower lip comes into contact with the rest of the reed, providing a different quality of damping. This creates a suitably more relaxed feel to the tone and its production, although some players build the strength to play very hard reed/wide mouthpiece set-ups in this way."

As a beginner, I am assuming I should stick with the "curled-lip-over the teeth" kind of embouchure, and maybe experimenting with the turned-out lip as I improve/get more confident.

What you say?

rollhead · March-28th-2003, 09:56 AM

By the way, I should add that in addition to being a fantastic player, Brecker is a great guy. He took the time to give me a mini-lesson in tenor embouchure.

Ellery Eskelin · March-28th-2003, 01:34 PM

Roll,
Wow, I've never heard of that, this idea that the lower lip does not go over the teeth. Are you sure you understood him correctly? I am somewhat familiar with the Allard approach (although indirectly) and I never heard that the lip stays all the way out. I used to play the French classical stuff in college and there is difference in the degree to which the lower lip is rolled over but I've never heard of not rolling it over at all. And putting the lower teeth on the reed will results in ultra high altissimo notes. It's not a standard technique at all.

Jazz players will likely use a much looser embouchure than a classical player. "The Cambridge Companion to the Saxophone" info you post says the the lip is turned out but it does not say that the lip does not still cover the teeth. I don't know anyone who plays that way with the possible exception of Archie Shepp.

Oh, and on that reed discussion we were having on the old board. I gave the 24/7 reed soak technique a try but for me it doesn't quite work. I find that when my reeds have a chance to dry somewhat (but never completely and NEVER to the point of warping) they break in better. By staying in the water all the time I suspect that the fibers don't have a chance to go through a certain process. I'm not sure what that process is but I did notice that the reeds that stayed in the water maintained their open fibers, in other words you can actually blow bubbles through the reed from the flat end. The reeds that play best for me are the ones that have a chance to dry a little, the fibers have gone through a certain process and are now closed. And they seem to play more centered to me. But I know that Jim likes the constant soaking technique and I've met others that swear by it so maybe it boils down to a certain response preference.

I plan to try that other system you posted about, with the tupperware and sponge. I've having trouble finding rock salt though. But once I get it together I'll write in.

OK, time for me to practice...

EE

rollhead · March-28th-2003, 03:14 PM

EE:

You are probably right. I am guessing that the lip isn't all the way out.

Thanks for your reply

rollhead · March-29th-2003, 10:32 PM

What would you own?

A Keilworth?

A Naked Lady?

A Beuscher 400?

Yamaha ZZZZZZ?

Zephyr?

Jim Sangrey · March-29th-2003, 11:43 PM

Balanced Action. It's the next best thing.

rollhead · March-30th-2003, 09:53 AM

Really?

Jim, I had you pegged for a Yanigasawa guy. :-)

Hmmm.... Selmer all the way, huh? What makes them so much better?

Plus, are the Mark VI and Balanced Actions best for ALL the saxophones, including soprano and bari?

As far as the Mark VIs are concerned, I understand that sax players not only look for the Mark VI... BUT also for a certian series of serial numbers. Is that true?

rollhead · July-3rd-2003, 12:33 AM

I started a thread like this a while back, but it dropped out of sight. I am hoping the new title might draw a wider crowd.

I am a new saxophone player. I am playing on one of the last of the Selmer Mark VIs tenors made... and I have a new Otto Link hard rubber mouthpiece, with a 6 facing. I use a Rovner ligature and I have been playing with No. 3 Vandoren Java's or 3M Rico Jazz Select reeds.

While I am pretty happy wtih the setup I have now, I am curious what a mouthpiece with a deeper facing might do for me, and I am interested in what other people are using.

For the first several months I was playing, I was squeaking a lot, but that tapered off quickly when I moved up form 2 and 2.5 reeds to the No. 3 reeds. I am thinking that a hard rubber Otto Link 7* might be too hard for me to blow at this stage.

Plus, I am interested in how and what people practice, and how long they practice.

As for tenor players, I listen to the usual suspects. Coltrane, Rollins, Hawkins, Webster, Young, George Adams... as well as Charles Lloyd, Michael Brecker and Seamus Blake. Are there any "must listen to" players out there?

jessicajones · July-4th-2003, 12:37 PM

You must listen to what you like!
Also, dont rule out other instruments. Whatever speaks to you. I listen to singers pretty carefully, and I think that helps my tone a lot. Part of the indoctrination is letting the sounds wash into you, not just studying them. So be sure to program yourself with stuff you like.
You probably are aware of that, and are just asking what interesting stuff you may not have heard yet, eh?

rollhead · July-5th-2003, 11:10 AM

Yes, it's true that I like a lot of instruments. I am particularly fond of Brad Mehldau and the work he has done with Charles Lloyd.

Lately, I've been listening to more Joe Henderson.

I do know one thing... i don't like sax players who play a tremendous number of notes. I prefer a more economical style. And I like melody.

In terms of tone, I like Rollins and Lloyd a lot, and I guess it is fair to say that they have pretty radically different sounds.

I would be interested in knowing how they manage and develop their distinctive voices on the tenor. Is it their setups? The physiology of their mouths? Or just their philosophy on the horn? Or is it all three?

Ivy · July-6th-2003, 09:49 PM

Sounds like you have a great set up, Roll. I would say your final sound is 60% your physiology (lips, oral cavity, lung capacity), 30% mouthpiece design, 10% saxophone. Bird used a different set up almost each time he played but his sound pretty much stayed the same.

A great resource for saxophone players is: saxontheweb.myforums.net. This forum will answer most of your questions about setups, technique, repair, or anything sax related. I've learned a ton about equipment from this site.

good luck

rollhead · July-6th-2003, 11:34 PM

Ivy,

Thanks for the website address. I will definitely check it out.

question:

I am playing with a new hard rubber Otto Link No. 6. Is there anyway to tell what will happen if I move up to a deeper facing, such as a 7*? Will that give me a freer blow? Or will it just be harder to get the No. 3 reed I use to vibrate?

Ivy · July-7th-2003, 02:34 AM

I play alto sax, so I can't speak about the tenor. But generally speaking, the bigger the opening, the bigger the sound and you'll need a lighter reed. You will also need a more developed embrouchure (chops) to play a larger tip opening.

Nobody can really tell you what's right for you because you are the judge as to the sound that comes out. The only way is to experiment with all different mouthpieces and reeds until you hear the sound you hear in your head.

This question has been asked many, many times on that site. You will also get a feel of other mouthpieces from other saxophonists who play other mouthpieces. The mouthpiece thread is super extensive and very educational.

I would say develop your chops on the mouthpiece you're comfortable with, then try others as time goes by. It can drive you crazy trying all different set ups as a beginner because your chops are the limiting factor. For example, you can find a great mouthpiece,but because your chops aren't developed enough you couldn't play the mp to it's full potential and think it's a bad mp.

Do long tones for 15 min to 30 min everyday and listen closely to the sound. Vary the wind velocity, lip pressure, size of the oral cavity in very minute increments and hear how the tone changes (overtone component of the sound). If you do this everyday for six months, you will have enough chops and a more developed ear to judge other mouthpieces. Sorry there are no short cuts.

I hope I'm not misjudging your chops. How long have you been playing? A good book to get is Larry Teal's " The Art of the Saxophone". That's also your thread's title-ha! A good omen perhaps.

good luck.

Geoff Pfeifer · July-7th-2003, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rollhead
Ivy,

Thanks for the website address. I will definitely check it out.

question:

I am playing with a new hard rubber Otto Link No. 6. Is there anyway to tell what will happen if I move up to a deeper facing, such as a 7*? Will that give me a freer blow? Or will it just be harder to get the No. 3 reed I use to vibrate?

I made a switch from a Dave Guardala Branford model to a Sugal 6*. The Branford was maybe an 8* in comparison. I got a BIGGER sound out of the Sugal.

I know a guy who plays on an old Selmer C* and gets a huge sound out of that.

So, will switching give you a freer blow? I dunno. I don't think there is much of a difference between a 6 and a 7*. Between a 6 and an 8 or 8*? Yeah, you'll probably notice something.

All that being said, unless you are having some physical problems (i.e. throat pain) while/after you play, stick with what you have for now. When you buy a new mouthpiece, it's just like buying a new (or, new to you) horn. It takes some time (sometimes a year or more) to "get to know" it.

rollhead · July-11th-2003, 07:44 PM

Geoff,

Is your Sugal a new mouthpiece or a "vintage" one?

And Ivy, yes, I know the book, The Art of the Saxophone. It is, indeed, a good one.

Geoff Pfeifer · July-12th-2003, 04:04 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by rollhead
[B]Geoff,

Is your Sugal a new mouthpiece or a "vintage" one?

I dunno. I just know that I like it

rollhead · July-18th-2003, 05:16 PM

Have any of you had any experience with Ralph Morgan moutpieces? I've heard a lot of good things about them.

Geoff Pfeifer · July-19th-2003, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rollhead
Have any of you had any experience with Ralph Morgan moutpieces? I've heard a lot of good things about them.

Never tried them....hell, I've never even heard of them

Some pieces I've tried out at one time or another:

Lawton: couldn't stand it. Stuffy as hell. Maybe I tried a bad piece?

Rovner: too bright for my taste.

New Metal Otto Links: sound good in the practice room, not so good on stage. And that's just me.

New Hardrubber Link: only checked out one and didn't dig it. I havn't given up hope though. There's a cat around here who plays on an older hardrubber Link and gets a screamin' sound.

Yanagasawa Metal: see Rovner above.

Berg Larson Hard Rubber: Two friends of mine play on these. Tried both of them. One was a 115/1, the other a 120/1. Both great. If I run into one at some time, and have the cash, I'll get one as a back-up mouthpiece for the one I have.

I tried a piece last time I was in NYC....can't remember the name of it...hard rubber and it had a red engraved RML, or RPL on the side....something like that. From what I remember, it's a new mouthpiece manufacturer.....not really mass produced I don't think. At any rate, if I had had the $, I would have got that one. Easy blowing, good control, etc. The tip opening was a little more closed than what I was playing on at the time (Guardala Branford Model), but I didn't notice that when I was playing it.

Played a friend of mine's vintage Metal Link, made in the 30's or 40's...beautiful piece.

Played another friend's Selmer Soloist C* from the 60's...another beautiful piece.

If you find out anything about the Ralph Morgan's let me know.

rollhead · July-24th-2003, 01:33 AM

Who Is Ralph Morgan?

Ralph Morgan, Master Designer and Hand Crafter, has spent most of the years since 1935 learning and researching the almost lost art of handmaking woodwind mouthpieces. Thirty of those years were devoted to H.&A. Selmer Inc., starting on the bench, and rising through District Sales Manager and National Product Manager to Chief Woodwind Technician and Designer -- his position at retirement in 1980. Since then he has dedicated his efforts and skills to bringing back the 'Chart Designed' and handcrafted mouthpieces of 50 or 60 years ago. His goal is making the finest mouthpieces, and training apprentices to carry on this tradition.

you can find out more at www.junkdude.com ... and click on "mouthpieces"

mke · July-24th-2003, 05:49 AM

Speaking of hand-made, custom-designed mouthpieces, there's also Belgian François Louis.

rollhead · July-26th-2003, 06:21 PM

I am familiar with François Louis's ligatures, and I understand he made a wooden mouthpiece for Joe Lavano... but, does he also make mouthpieces the common folk like me?

rollhead · August-22nd-2003, 10:47 AM

I just got a brand new Ralph Morgan HR MP in the mail a couple of days ago. While my MP
experience is limited, I must say this is the best thing I have ever blown, and the price
was right, too, under $200. It is very responsive. Morgan also makes "student" MPs
for $40.

mke · August-22nd-2003, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by rollhead
I am familiar with François Louis's ligatures, and I understand he made a wooden mouthpiece for Joe Lavano... but, does he also make mouthpieces the common folk like me?

Sorry, I hadn't seen your post.

Yes, but he has to hear you play first.

Any of you sax players interested in Louis's Aulochrome?

Nathaniel Catchpole · August-23rd-2003, 05:28 AM

Yes, worryingly so.

mke · August-23rd-2003, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Nathaniel Catchpole
Yes, worryingly so.

Are you talking about the aulochrome? Maybe we can go visit François Louis when you come over...

Nathaniel Catchpole · August-24th-2003, 07:06 AM

Yeah man. Just don't let me take any money with me.

Dick Trickle · April-16th-2004, 05:01 PM

I'll put my yani 880 alto up against any Mark VI anyday... except my Mark VI tenor. I would never get a Mark VI soprano... just too wierd. This is funny. Those unisons show promise... My buddy is really into his Chu Berry and sold me back my tenor now... that must be a good horn that Chu... because this six is freakin stacked with alot of sound and good intonation.

Paul B · April-16th-2004, 05:43 PM

Rollhead is right; all Mark VIs are not created equal, and later models (i.e. higher serial numbers) are generally not considered as good, though you might find a later VI that is a gem and an early one that is a dud.

I'm not to into the Japanese horns. When I visited Steve Lacy in Paris many years back, I was playing a Yamaha (which I never liked). When he saw it, he simply said "Oh, you play a Japanese horn." Nuff said.

Bye-ya.

JazzAt52ndStreet · April-25th-2004, 08:24 PM

.....we had a Mark VI at school....i did it no justice though, I should stick with banging on things with drumsticks.

-52nd

Dick Trickle · April-29th-2004, 12:03 PM

Allright... now that I have had my tenor back for a week... I am convinced that a VI is the way to go especialy for tenor. I have played on Series II's, Yamaha's, Yani's, Balanced and even that new refference model of Selmer. No comparison as far as tenor goes.

But as far as alto and soprano... I gotta say that the mid 80's were a great time for Yanigasawa. The 880 alto I bought new, is still the only alto I can get the sound out of that I like. Granted... I have only played on a few others over the last few years... and I have an excelent tech who is the only person who works on my horns. The curved Yani soprano I have is in tip top shape... it had been played sparingly. The intonation is right on the button (and it sounds like a saxophone) and cost me far less than alot of the other horns I had been looking into.

So, I know it is a matter of what YOU like. I have had people say that they don't take Japanese horns seriously and spend a big wad of money on a VI or VII that needs alot of TLC. I have also noticed that the newer japanese horns are kinda wimpy compared to what they once were. Never really liked Yamaha all that much. The keyboard is very funky and the sound is normaly pretty blah. The only Keilwerth I enjoyed was a straight alto... but that was short lived.

But anyway... an expansion of my opinion there.