vanished thread? why?

[John P. Cooper]

U.S. marines massacred civilians?

Where'd it go to?

[Daniel]

apparently lois was contacted by the cia

vanished thread? why?

Originally Posted by John P. Cooper

U.S. marines massacred civilians?

Where'd it go to?

Huh, ain't that a kick in the head. I had a "discussion" going on too, trying to give a lad some guidance.

[Daniel]

yeah by being a racist asshole

well done

Originally Posted by Daniel

yeah by being a racist asshole

well done

Why, thank you. Think what you like. I could give two shits.

[John P. Cooper]

"....the friendly forum......"

Some people think denial is a river.

Anyhow, I really don't think that I said anything to warrant the thread's deletion, FWIW.

[John P. Cooper]

Did you see Daniel's last post to you? All he did was repeat the same quote over and over and 15 times. The rest of the thread was filled with the usual bleating from the usual suspects.

Why waste your time?

[Tom Storer]

Why waste one's time? Excellent point, John, and one I thought about as I posted on that thread--wondering if I was wasting my time. I fear I was, but I was hoping that maybe, just maybe, there might be some honest exchange. I was mad enough that I resorted to sarcasm, which didn't help--I try to avoid that, but sometimes it just comes out. I think in future, I'll not waste my time.

[John P. Cooper]

No one is going to change anyone's mind on most of these topics.

Gilbert might as well drop this heading of politics, issues and events. It's just a magnet for long held beliefs to be shouted out into the ether.

Little is learned here.

It's one of the main reasons I have stopped most of my posting on the forum at large. Too unwelcoming, too hostile, too dogmatic.

Originally Posted by John P. Cooper

Did you see Daniel's last post to you? All he did was repeat the same quote over and over and 15 times. The rest of the thread was filled with the usual bleating from the usual suspects.

Why waste your time?

No, I didn't see it.

I'm still having fun seeing how some folks confuse spin with fact. Seems like intellectuals would be less likely to do that.

[Gary Sisco]

Hilarious. Cooper transforms into Friendly Fred.

Dogmatic is a word people use to describe those who don't share their dogma.

[Monte Smith]

Cain't we all git along?

[Gary Sisco]

Clearly, no.

[Jazzzoline]

Raelians I say...

[Gentle Giant]

I didn't catch the nastiness (hell, even Scott didn't attack me after my post) because I was offline over the weekend, but I do think that the thread and the discussion was important. I would prefer any offending posts be cut rather than lose the entire subject matter, and don't see the need to throw out the baby with the bath water.

[Scott Dolan]

If anybody is really that concerned, which I am not, you can always PM Lois and she'll be more than happy to explain why the thread was removed. I personally can't think of a reason why, but I'm not Lois.

Otherwise it's kind of pointless to sit around here and wring your hands.

Git along
little doggies

It sure was an intellectually stimulating conversation though.

[tristano's ghost]

Originally Posted by Gentle Giant

I didn't catch the nastiness (hell, even Scott didn't attack me after my post) because I was offline over the weekend, but I do think that the thread and the discussion was important. I would prefer any offending posts be cut rather than lose the entire subject matter, and don't see the need to throw out the baby with the bath water.

No kidding. As the person who started the thread, I completely agree--otherwise any asinine provocateur can come in and sabotage a discussion that rubs him/her the wrong way. I was offline as well for most of the weekend, so I don't even know where that discussion had gone--although I had wanted to add a story about the wonderful incident in which we shot a pregnant woman to death at a checkpoint. A relative was quoted as wishing the same sort of pain and suffering on U.S. troops that we have inflicted on Iraqis... nice to bracket that with the 9-year-old survivor from Haditha who wants the American troops responsible for the massacre "executed." Point here being (all sympathy for the Iraqi populace aside--God forbid that should be any part of a discussion about what's going on over there) that this, uh, is not exactly a triumphant momentum we're exhibiting in the "battle for hearts and minds." In fact, I'd say we've decisively LOST that battle, and that that loss began with Abu Ghraib (news note: Army to omit key Geneva regulations in its new manual). From nearly every point of view, there's no longer any justifiable reason for our staying in Iraq. Out by the end of the year, I say. No more of this crap, for either the Iraqis or our soldiers, who've been sufficiently traumatized for W. and Rummy's agendas to last a lifetime and more.

In any event, the Haditha massacre is just about common knowledge now, after being smoke and rumor for several months. As for people's minds being changed, maybe not so much on a small, ideologically fierce jazz discussion board; but in the greater country, obviously minds have changed a great deal. Two thirds of the population now opposes the war, and two thirds disapprove of President Bush. Seems to me that quite a few minds have changed over the past year or so.

[Scott Dolan]

Again, contact Lois if you're that concerned about it.

All I'll say about it is this: I checked in a time or two over the weekend. the only thing I can imagine Lois might have found to be out of line was jazzB.C. using the term "ragheads" which TStor quickly took him to task for. Though I highly doubt the thread was deleted because of that. Other than that, I didn't see any nasty exchanges on that particular thread.

[Monte Smith]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

I checked in a time or two over the weekend. the only thing I can imagine Lois might have found to be out of line was jazzB.C. using the term "ragheads" which TStor quickly took him to task for.

WTF? Nobody wears rags on their heads. Get serious.

[tristano's ghost]

I think I know what happened here--a racist rightwing remark, and said poster's fellow conservatives denounced him/her in such strong and virulent terms that the thread simply had to be yanked. Right? Right? So to speak.

Sincere thanks to those who provided some clarification.

[Scott Dolan]

WTF? Nobody wears rags on their heads. Get serious.

Don't start, Satan.

Hey! Did anybody catch the Mysteries of The Freemasons two part special on the History Channel last night? Really interesting stuff.

[Scott Dolan]

Originally Posted by tristano's ghost

I think I know what happened here--a racist rightwing remark, and said poster's fellow conservatives denounced him/her in such strong and virulent terms that the thread simply had to be yanked. Right? Right? So to speak.

Sincere thanks to those who provided some clarification.

I'm not sure if you are directing this towards me or not, but I don't consider jazzB.C. a "fellow conservative".

[Monte Smith]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

Hey! Did anybody catch the Mysteries of The Freemasons two part special on the History Channel last night? Really interesting stuff.

I did, actually. But I went to bed before it was over. None of that conspiratorial world domination/secret society stuff is news to me, of course.

[Tom Storer]

Originally Posted by Monte Smith

WTF? Nobody wears rags on their heads. Get serious.

The penny drops. It is only now that I understand the significance of the Nabob's turban!

[Scott Dolan]

Originally Posted by Satan

I did, actually. But I went to bed before it was over. None of that conspiratorial world domination/secret society stuff is news to me, of course.

Nah.

And all the dollar bill horseshit. But it is interesting though.

I dug the one expert that said that many of the meanings of many rituals the Masons performed have been lost over the ages so they still perform them but don't know why. But rather than saying that and sounding like total dopes they refer to the reasons behind them as "secret".

Hahahaha..........

[tristano's ghost]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

I'm not sure if you are directing this towards me or not, but I don't consider jazzB.C. a "fellow conservative".

No, I'm not, SD--I'm still happily imbibing the peace pipe we recently shared. Fabulous stuff, man! Clearly we all CAN get along, as long as we're metaphorically or literally stoned out of our gourds. I propose immediate & massive Ecstasy drops across the Middle East.

Another story re: massacre:

.S. commander to review Haditha report By FREDERIC J. FROMMER, Associated Press Writer
1 hour, 48 minutes ago



WASHINGTON - The No. 2 American general in Iraq will soon review a preliminary criminal report into the alleged massacre by Marines of Iraqi citizens in Haditha, a congressman just back from Iraq said Monday.

Rep. John Kline (news, bio, voting record), R-Minn., one of four House members who traveled to Iraq over the weekend, said the lawmakers discussed the investigations with Lt. Gen. Peter Chiarelli, the second-ranking U.S. general in Iraq. Kline said it was unclear when the report would be released.

"General Chiarelli expressed some concern in that he did not want to sign off an investigation until he felt like he had all of the information that he needed" from the Naval Criminal Investigative Service, said Kline, a former Marine. The investigative service is probing whether crimes were committed in the killing of two dozen Iraqis last November.

A senior defense official told the Associated Press last month that evidence points to unprovoked killings by the Marines involved. A separate probe is examining whether there has been a coverup of the incident by the U.S. military.

The four House members who visited Iraq took issue with comments made by Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, who complained that coalition forces have shown "no respect for citizens, smashing civilian cars and killing on a suspicion or a hunch."

"The prime minister has a platform and a pulpit now that he may not have had in the past," said Rep. Mike Conaway, R-Texas. Conaway said with that platform comes "responsibility to be very careful and to choose your words very carefully."

Kline said his group was told that U.S. military officials and embassy staff had told al-Maliki that his comments were not helpful.

Kline also said Iraqi generals told the U.S. lawmakers that they were frustrated about the slow pace in filling the new Iraqi government's security posts, saying it was hindering the training of the Iraqi military.

"The generals were very candid with us," he said. "There's no question that they understand that until you get a functioning ministry of defense, until you get a functioning Pentagon — Iraqi Pentagon — they're not going to be able to reach their full potential."

On Sunday, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice expressed confidence that Iraqi leaders will be able to fill key security posts in the next few days while downplaying recent sectarian violence.

Rice, who appeared on three television news shows, said of the vacant security posts, "Of course, they need to get this settled, but they will get it settled. When they get it right, and they will get it right, everybody will forget how long it took them."

An Iraqi parliament session was postponed earlier Sunday after al-Maliki again failed to reach consensus on candidates to head ministries that run Iraq's military and police.

Also Sunday, the top U.S. military officer pledged a thorough investigation in the alleged massacre at Haditha, acknowledging that the charges have raised concerns among Iraqi officials and in the United States.

Gen. Peter Pace, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said it is not clear exactly what happened last November when as many as two dozen Iraqis were killed during a U.S. attack in Haditha. Still, he said it was important not to rush to judgment.

"You don't want to have the emotions of the day weigh into the process," Pace told The Associated Press in an interview Sunday. "We need to stick with our judicial process. We want to be sure that it moves forward without any influence."

Rice appeared on "Fox News Sunday," CBS's "Face the Nation" and CNN's "Late Edition."

I loved this passage in particular:

>>The four House members who visited Iraq took issue with comments made by Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, who complained that coalition forces have shown "no respect for citizens, smashing civilian cars and killing on a suspicion or a hunch."

"The prime minister has a platform and a pulpit now that he may not have had in the past," said Rep. Mike Conaway, R-Texas. Conaway said with that platform comes "responsibility to be very careful and to choose your words very carefully."

Kline said his group was told that U.S. military officials and embassy staff had told al-Maliki that his comments were not helpful.<<

Yeah, you know, it's really not HELPFUL when you bitch about how we're shooting up your civilian population. Will you please be quiet, please? (There's another solution for peace--widespread teaching of the works of Raymond Carver. Nothing like bleak, late-20th-century American minimalism for numbing a heated populace.)

We're smack in the middle of a civil war, and incidents like this--the massacre triggered by the death of a fellow Marine, the freaked-out shooting-up of a pregnant woman at a checkpoint, etc.--will only multiply. Our modern military is great at knocking down regimes and bad at occupation... much of which can be blamed on the arrogance and doctrinaire ignorance of Rummy and crew.

[Gary Sisco]

Nationality matters not. In wartime, some guys are going to lose their shit and do ugly things. This is an inevitable result of unleashing legal murder, which is what warfare is, and troops from every society in every war have done these things.

The test of the morality of the society lies in how it deals with those responsible when they do step outside the bounds, as the Marines at Haditha clearly did. The investigation into My Lai was too late coming and its results too limited for credibility -- leaving not just a permanent memory to stain the rest of the soldiers' honor who did not behave criminally but also helped very much to breed the kind of cynicism that people accept today as normality.

There is still the opportunity to deal with Haditha morally and credibly, and so far the command is taking the proper moral and legal course in its two-pronged investigation: One, in establishing the physical facts as to what happened and who did what, when; the second, in establishing who created the official lie and subsequent effort to cover up the murders. Those responsible for both should be tried and if found guilty -- I can't imagine a different just outcome given the physical evidence already in play -- imprisoned for some very serious time in a Marine brig, the worst of all possible fates, along of course with loss of rank, pension, and etc., and a dishonorable discharge.

There is no excuse for behavior like this in any situation. What happened in Haditha was cold-blooded, willful, revenge murdering of the unarmed, and a criminal effort to cover it up, which is perhaps even worse in some ways.

Time will tell. The world is watching.

[Gary Sisco]

It is amazing how long it is taking for people to realize that nothing is secret today and can't be, with instant communications worldwide, digital cameras, and so forth.

The moral courage of the journalists and editors at *Time* should also be roundly noted, for refusing to go along with an official story that just didn't add up with the physical evidence at hand.