Civics & stuff

This little article has a few curves that go every which-a-way, should appeal to just about everybody. It contains the spectrum from simply 'standing your ground' to whining/racist insinuation.Enjoy.

English Only at Philly Cheesesteak Joint

By PATRICK WALTERS
Associated Press Writer

Philly Steak Joint Says Speak English, Please

PHILADELPHIA (AP) -- Bistec con queso? Not at Geno's Steaks.

An English-only ordering policy has thrust one of Philadelphia's best-known cheesesteak joints into the national immigration debate.

Situated in a South Philadelphia immigrant neighborhood, Geno's - which together with its chief rival, Pat's King of Steaks, forms the epicenter of an area described as "ground zero for cheesesteaks" - has posted small signs telling customers, "This Is AMERICA: WHEN ORDERING `SPEAK ENGLISH.'"

"They don't know how lucky they are. All we're asking them to do is learn the English language," said Geno's owner Joseph Vento, 66. "We're out to help these people, but they've got to help themselves, too."

Vento, whose grandparents struggled to learn English after immigrating from Sicily in the 1920s, said he posted the sign about six months ago amid concerns over immigration reform and the increasing number of customers who could not order in English when they wanted Philly's gooey, greasy specialty - fried steak, sliced or chopped, in a long roll, with cheese and fried onions.

Of course, it's not as if native Philadelphians speak the King's English either. A Philadelphian might order a cheesesteak by saying something like, "Yo, gimme a cheesesteak wit, will youse?" ("Wit," or "with," means with fried onions.) To which the counterman might reply: "Youse want fries widdat?"

The traditionally Italian community near Geno's has become more diverse over the decades. Immigrants from Asia and Latin America have moved in, joining longtime residents and young professionals seeking reasonably priced rowhouses. In the past 10 years, an estimated 15,000 to 20,000 Mexican immigrants - many of them here illegally, community leaders say - have settled in South Philly.

Vento said his staff is glad to help non-native speakers order in English and has never turned someone away because of a language barrier.

But the policy has "really upset a lot of a people," said Brad Baldia of Day Without An Immigrant, a coalition of immigrant groups. "For some people, I think we're just going to say, `Le gusta Pat's.'"

Juntos, a Hispanic neighborhood organization, said it plans to send people to Geno's to try to order in Spanish and may pursue court action, depending on what happens.

"His grandparents encountered the same racism and the same xenophobia," said Peter Bloom, the group's director. "Why would he begin that process over again?"

Vento said he has gotten plenty of criticism and threats. One person told him they hoped one his many neon signs flames out and burns the place down, he said. But he said he plans to hold his ground.

Customers placing orders on a recent morning seemed unfazed.

Angelica Marquez, 22 and originally from Puerto Rico, ordered in well-spoken English, but said some of her relatives struggle with the language. "They always come and just say `cheesesteak,'" Marquez said, adding that the policy "bothers her some" but not enough to keep her away.

When a non-English speaking customer showed up at the window a short time later, a clerk patiently coached him through the process. Eventually, both said "cheesesteak."

Vento, a short, fiery man with a ninth-grade education, arms covered in tattoos and a large diamond ring in his ear, also sells "freedom fries" to protest France's opposition to the Iraq war. He rails against Mumia Abu-Jamal, the black man who was convicted of killing police Officer Daniel Faulkner in 1981 and has become a cause celebre among some death penalty opponents. Memorials to Faulkner are posted at his shop.

Those who market the city, often using images of Geno's and other famous steak shops, are watching with concern.

"I certainly wouldn't want a national audience to think it represented all of the wonderful cheesesteak makers in the whole city," said Meryl Levitz, president and chief executive of the Greater Philadelphia Tourism Marketing Corp. "This isn't representative of the Philadelphia attitude."

Competitors are seizing on the controversy.

Tony Luke's issued a statement saying it welcomes all customers "whether or not they speak a `wit' of English."

And a manager at Pat's, Kathy Smith, said of Geno's English-only policy: "That's the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard in my life. I'd rather listen to the Spanish than the foul language of the college students."

[Gary Sisco]

What the sign meant to say was "This is the world. We are Americans. We are too lazy to learn a second language so we insist that you speak English."

It would be more accurate because they don't just expect English to be spoken here in the US. They expect it to be spoken wherever they are in the world. And the more adamant about it they are, the less likely they are to have the ability to speak more than one. (Or even their own with any evident skill.)

[Hudson Boy]

Which "second language" must we learn? Here in NYC, there are well over 100 languages spoken. I cannot understand many of my co-workers, the announcements on the subways, the waiters/waitresses in restaurants, the help in doctors' offices and hospitals, etc. If we want this society to function efficiently, we must be able to communicate with each other - and speaking English is the best way to do this.

We have neighborhood restaurants and shops that are immigrant-owned, and what little English, if any, is spoken is impossible for most people to understand. In some stores, the signs are in other languages.

I recently purchased batteries in a local electronics shop. I clearly told the worker behind the counter that I needed a dozen “C” batteries. When I got home, and opened the bag, they were size “D”. They exchanged them for the correct size, but only because I noticed that they were wrong before I had opened the packaging. If I had opened them, I would've been stuck with the wrong item.

Good luck if you have special dietary needs, due to a medical condition, and must convey this to waiters or waitresses with little English comprehension. Here's what some people say, in such instances: "Can you dial 911 for an ambulance if I eat food that is prepared wrong?"

I am not the most educated person in the universe, but I do manage to communicate well enough when I have to earn a living. Must we all be inconvenienced, or worse, just because others refuse to do this?

If I did not enjoy "diversity", I wouldn't work or live where I do. It is in the best interest of new Americans to learn our language - just as I would expect it to be if I moved to a country with another native tongue.

[Scott Dolan]

Originally Posted by Gary Sisco

What the sign meant to say was "This is the world. We are Americans. We are too lazy to learn a second language so we insist that you speak English."

It would be more accurate because they don't just expect English to be spoken here in the US. They expect it to be spoken wherever they are in the world. And the more adamant about it they are, the less likely they are to have the ability to speak more than one. (Or even their own with any evident skill.)

If I ever master the English language, I might give another a go. But I'm calling you on this one, Gary. Horseshit.

Originally Posted by Hudson

Which "second language" must we learn? Here in NYC, there are well over 100 languages spoken. I cannot understand of many of my co-workers, the announcements on the subways, the waiters/waitresses in restaurants, the help in doctors' offices and hospitals, etc. If we want this society to function efficiently, we must be able to communicate with each other - and speaking English is the best way to do this.

Absolutely. Very well said, my friend. It's really that simple. No racism, no xenophobia, or whatever other bullshit charge one may want to level on you for looking at this in a strip[ped down and reasonable fashion.

[Gary Sisco]

Bullshit. I've ived and traveled in other countries (8) and most Americans do in fact expect English to be spoken wherever they are, and they become amazingly frustrated and obnoxious when it isn't.

As for which second, take a pick. Any of the hundreds will do. But since people who speak Spanish will soon be a very healthy proportion of the population, indeed, I'd recommend at least the basics in that one. Which isn't really new. I lived in two neighborhoods in Albuquerque "way back" in '70-'72, where if you didn't speak Spanish you weren't understood and you didn't understand, either. The Indians used it, too. It was the language of the place. Not English. I don't recall anyone getting up in arms about it.

[Scott Dolan]

Originally Posted by Gary

Bullshit. I've ived and traveled in other countries (8) and most Americans do in fact expect English to be spoken wherever they are, and they become amazingly frustrated and obnoxious when it isn't.

So?

That has nothing to do with the point Hudson was making. Nor does it have anything to do with your previous statement. We're talking strictly about here in America. Not foreign countries.

[Gary Sisco]

I don't see any reason for imposing a language on anyone, nor do I find it an imposition to expect people who do to learn another themselves.

My reasons are that I am sick of people using the power of the state to force every issue they don't like (or do).

What ever happened to live and let live? People have been speaking Spanish (and many, many other languages) in America since long there was ever a US to speak English in.

I find issues like this to be stupid, simply put. They aren't issues of any real concern or consequence to anyone. So you make English a national language. Require it, even. So what? People will still speak their language of choice. Which is their right, so far as I'm concerned. If I am too lazy or self-important to learn how to use theirs, that's not their problem.

There has never been a time when many languages were not spoken in New York. In fact, it's been a very short time only when most of its newspapers were printed in English. Well on into the 20th Century, in fact. New York was cosmopolitan from the very beginning, most of the people in "Dutch" Manhattan, for example, weren't Dutch. Even as a village, it was multicultural and multilingual.

[Vince Kargatis]

Originally Posted by Hudson Boy

If we want this society to function efficiently, we must be able to communicate with each other - and speaking English is the best way to do this.

Who's this "we", and why the "must"? I agree that English speakers will have an easier time communicating in most parts of the country. Individuals can decide for themselves how easy they want it, and how they go about making it easier on themselves.

You realize you can substitute "Spanish" for "English" in your statement and that it will generally apply in Spanish-dominant sections of the country, right? Those sections will only grow with time. Hopefully English-supporting people will listen to their own advice and learn the appropriate languages that make communication easier in whatever situations they commonly find themselves in.

[Scott Dolan]

Originally Posted by Gary

My reasons are that I am sick of people using the power of the state to force every issue they don't like (or do).

That is not an issue in this case.

So you make English a national language.

Yes, our tax dollars at work. Just think, if they iron out this whole gay marriage thing, and the desecration of the flag deal that's also coming up, they'll have accomplished the most inane trifecta ever to come out of Capitol Hill.

[Gary Sisco]

Now you're getting closer to my thinking.

My point is Americans expect English to be spoken. Period. Not just in the US but anywhere they go. If you travel, you will see this for yourself. There isn't much more pathetic than watching a gringo speak English very ... very ... slow...ly and increasingly LOUDER each time, expecting someone who doesn't speak English to somehow understand it just because the English speaker in the picture is behaving like a buffoon.

If people are expected to speak English when in the US, why can't Americans be expected to speak whatever language prevails in other places when they are there?

That's my question if people must be led by the nose through each logic leap.

[Scott Dolan]

Originally Posted by Vince Kargatis

Who's this "we", and why the "must"? I agree that English speakers will have an easier time communicating in most parts of the country. Individuals can decide for themselves how easy they want it, and how they go about making it easier on themselves.

You realize you can substitute "Spanish" for "English" in your statement and that it will generally apply in Spanish-dominant sections of the country, right? Those sections will only grow with time. Hopefully English-supporting people will listen to their own advice and learn the appropriate languages that make communication easier in whatever situations they commonly find themselves in.

Good idea, Vince.

Complicating communication, in general, is very progressive.

[Gary Sisco]

Yeah, no communication at all won't be complex, that's for sure.

[Scott Dolan]

Originally Posted by Gary

My point is Americans expect English to be spoken. Period. Not just in the US but anywhere they go.

I'll take your word for it, Gary. Sounds absolutely insane to me.

But here in America is a different story. If I go to Italy, I wouldn't expect them to speak English. If an Italian comes here it would be pretty silly for them to expect us to speak Italian.

Now you're getting closer to my thinking.

And here I thought having particia agree with me yesterday was frightening.........

[Scott Dolan]

Originally Posted by Gary Sisco

Yeah, no communication at all won't be complex, that's for sure.

Well, let's look at it this way, Gary.

How many languages do you want to have to learn? I don't think it's outrageous in any way to have a single language for a single country.

In Italy they speak Italian.

In France they speak French.

And so on.

[Gary Sisco]

Might be silly, but millions of Italians did come here without being able to speak English.

And millions of Jews came speaking Yiddish.

And so forth.

And they had their own newspapers, schools, civic organizations, mutual aid societies, and so forth. It's called being an immigrant.

Eventually they, and much more so their children and still moreso their grandchildren simply became Americans with time (and hence forgot the other language...).

The immigrants of today and their children are no different in that regard.

[Gary Sisco]

Get off it. Many, most, even, countries have more than one language. Italy is multilingual, in fact, in the north. Switzerland is multilingual. Spain has those damned Basques (no other language in the world resembles it). And so forth.

[Vince Kargatis]

Originally Posted by Scott Dolan

Complicating communication, in general, is very progressive.

Scott, I can't tell what your point is here. Are you arguing that multilingualism is a bad idea? Do you disagree with a point that I made? I support the recommendation to learn languages that facilitate communication - that's clear from my statements.

What's obviously laughable about the 'English' shouters is the statement that "America is an English-speaking country". Much more accurate is to state that English dominates in most areas, and Spanish dominates in a few areas (with small pockets of many others scattered throughout). It's not controversial to note that the Spanish-dominant areas will grow with time. The free language market will sort itself out as it always has.

[Scott Dolan]

Originally Posted by Gary Sisco

Might be silly, but millions of Italians did come here without being able to speak English.

And millions of Jews came speaking Yiddish.

And so forth.

And they had their own newspapers, schools, civic organizations, mutual aid societies, and so forth. It's called being an immigrant.

Eventually they, and much more so their children and still moreso their grandchildren simply became Americans with time (and hence forgot the other language...).

The immigrants of today and their children are no different in that regard.

Yeah, but c'mon Gary.

If I were to move to France, I would eventually have to learn to speak french. Would I not?

[Gary Sisco]

Yeah but the word there is eventually. Eventually immigrants to the US, or their children, speak English, too, and -- gasp! -- become Americans.

The truth is, being the world's imperial power, English is the lingua franca for power reasons. You could in fact live in many countries now and not have to learn any of their native languages. People in Norway speak better English in my experience than most Americans -- and they can write it as well or better, also. I've met many who can also translate English into French and Spanish, at conferences and such.

The unilingual thing is largely an American national trait, and even then, it's an anglo-american thing.

[Scott Dolan]

Originally Posted by Vinny K

Scott, I can't tell what your point is here. Are you arguing that multilingualism is a bad idea?

No. I'm not calling it a bad idea. If one wants to learn multiple languages, that's fine. But I do disagree that one should be expected to learn another language just to get by in their own goddamn country.

Do you disagree with a point that I made?

Yes, I do. I think communications should be simplified not obfuscated.*











*irony meter alert

[Hudson Boy]

Originally Posted by Vince Kargatis

Who's this "we", and why the "must"? I agree that English speakers will have an easier time communicating in most parts of the country. Individuals can decide for themselves how easy they want it, and how they go about making it easier on themselves.

You realize you can substitute "Spanish" for "English" in your statement and that it will generally apply in Spanish-dominant sections of the country, right? Those sections will only grow with time. Hopefully English-supporting people will listen to their own advice and learn the appropriate languages that make communication easier in whatever situations they commonly find themselves in.

Of course,if you deal primarily with the Latin-American community it's important to speak Spanish. The same would be true with Russians, Haitians, etc That is not what I was talkiing about.

We will not be able to function well, as a community and society, if there are hundreds of languages spoken by a large percentage of people that do not speak English. This has already started in NYC, and other places, and it will spread, unless the proper steps to resolve the problem are taken soon

Now it's time go to lunch, and see if somebody can understand me, and vice versa.

[Scott Dolan]

Originally Posted by Gary Sisco

Yeah but the word there is eventually. Eventually immigrants to the US, or their children, speak English, too, and -- gasp! -- become Americans.

The truth is, being the world's imperial power, English is the lingua franca for power reasons. You could in fact live in many countries now and not have to learn any of their native languages. People in Norway speak better English in my experience than most Americans -- and they can write it as well or better, also. I've met many who can also translate English into French and Spanish, at conferences and such.

The unilingual thing is largely an American national trait, and even then, it's an anglo-american thing.

So the majority of Italian people do not speak Italian?

Were I to go into a restaurant there, wouldn't the simple communication of ordering food be made 100 times easier if I spoke Italian?

[Gary Sisco]

I'm not anti-American by the way. I used to get a charge out of goading my political friends from Quebec about how come just English and French? What about them Crees? Talk about "distinct societies." It would normally get the steam to shooting out of their ears.

Once some anarchist friends caused an outrage by making stickers that said "Don't Touch Law 101" -- a direct English translation of the Quebecois slogan for that particular election. It was funny as hell in context but it pissed a whole lotta Quebecois off, even though it was in fact their own slogan.

[Gary Sisco]

No, Scott. The majority speaks Italian. The point is that they don't *only* speak Italian. Apparently, there's a genetic defect in Anglo-Americans that renders them retarded when it comes to learning other people's languages or even to be able to grasp the idea of why it might be a good thing to do, if only for learning's sake. You can often learn as much about your own that you didn't already know, in the process. Americans might learn what a participle is, for instance, since they apparently don't mention them much in schools anymore.

[Scott Dolan]

No, Scott. The majority speaks Italian. The point is that they don't *only* speak Italian.

And communication would be so much easier if everyone who visited their country did also.

No?

[Gary Sisco]

Communication can't happen in any language between people who don't want to communicate.

[Scott Dolan]

That is not an answer to my question.

But I'll take that as a yes. And that is my only point in all of this.

[Gary Sisco]

Likely because I didn't understand the context of your question as the bbs doesn't actually run in real time.

See? Even in English, or at least American, miscommunication.

One thing I found funny when traveling. Motherfuckers in England are as hard to understand as any Nica ever was, lot of them.

[Scott Dolan]

Bottom line.

I think communication should be simplified, not complicated.

I don't have a problem with people who choose to learn another language. But it also should not be expected of them unless they are in a foreign country.

I'll be more than happy to learn Spanish should I decide to move to Mexico. I wouldn't move there and expect everyone to learn English just so they could speak to me.

[Gary Sisco]

You wouldn't. Many other gringos do and have, however. Costa Rica, too, where any gringo with a guaranteed income can go and live. Social security will do. And they can speak English all they like.

Hey, maybe some New Yorkers could move there!