Old June-12th-2006, 06:54 PM   #1
lynn
End The War
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,947
Guantanamo Suicides

U.S. Distances Itself From Gitmo Remarks
By ANNE GEARAN , 06.12.2006, 06:16 PM

The Bush administration distanced itself Monday from remarks by a U.S. diplomat that the weekend suicides of three Arab detainees at the Guantanamo Bay military prison were a "good P.R. move."

"I would just point out in public that we would not say that it was a P.R. stunt," State Department spokesman Sean McCormack said, using the abbreviation for public relations. "We have serious concerns anytime anybody takes their own life."

Colleen Graffy, deputy assistant U.S. secretary of state for public diplomacy, told the British Broadcasting Corp. that the deaths at the U.S.-run camp in Cuba were a "good P.R. move to draw attention."

Graffy also told the BBC the deaths were "a tactic to further the jihadi cause."

Graffy's unscripted remarks threw a monkeywrench in the administration's careful plan to demonstrate concern over the deaths and respond to rising criticism of the U.S. operation of the prison.

Bush expressed "serious concern" Saturday over the suicides, and he directed an aggressive effort by his administration to reach out diplomatically while it investigates.

"He wants to make sure that this thing is done right from all points of view," White House press secretary Tony Snow said Saturday evening.

Graffy's boss, Undersecretary of State Karen Hughes, is charged with improving the U.S. image in the Arab world. The former White House communications adviser and longtime Bush aide heads an office at the State Department that monitors and quickly responds to inaccurate or distorted portrayals of U.S. views and actions in the Arab media.

Graffy's remarks were quickly picked up in the Arab press.

"Her comments quickly appeared to be bad P.R. moves for the U.S. administration," an article on the Web site of Lebanon's The Daily Star newspaper said.

Two Saudis and one Yemeni hanged themselves Saturday, the first successful suicides at the base after dozens of attempts.

Military officials said the suicides were coordinated acts of protests, but human rights activists and defense attorneys said the deaths signaled the desperation of many of the 460 detainees held on suspicion of links to al-Qaida and the Taliban.

Only 10 detainees have been charged with crimes after more than four years behind bars. The Supreme Court is expected to rule this month on whether President Bush overstepped his power in setting up war crimes trials for those detainees.

The administration's controversial detentions at Guantanamo Bay is a point of contention between the United States and many of its allies in Europe in the Mideast, and the suicides renewed international pressure to shut the prison.

The European Union on Monday called the Guantanamo Bay detention center an "anomaly," and said it would urge Bush to shut it down when he comes to Europe for a trans-Atlantic summit next week.

"Humanitarian standards and human rights have to be observed" in the fight against terrorism, Austrian Foreign Minister Ursula Plassnik told reporters. "For the United States, a country committed to freedom, the rule of law and due process, this is an anomaly."

The Bush administration was well aware of the potential diplomatic headaches that the suicides could create. The deaths prompted an extraordinary round of global outreach by officials from the White House's National Security Council, the State Department and Bush's congressional liaisons.

Within hours of the deaths, the Bush administration had contacted the United Nations, the European Union, most European nations individually, the embassies of Mideast and near-Mideast countries, the International Committee of the Red Cross, bipartisan members of the congressional leadership and the ranking Republican and Democratic members of the House and Senate Foreign Relations and Intelligence committees, Snow said.

Graffy's remarks were sharper than those of other U.S. officials, but not entirely off-message. The camp commander at Guantanamo, Rear Adm. Harry Harris, told reporters Sunday that the detainees "have no regard for human life, neither ours nor their own."

"I believe this was not an act of desperation but an act of asymmetric warfare against us," Harris said.

Copyright 2006 Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed

==========================================

Can anyone explain to me what asymmertic warfare is? Is that like someone making you hold a gun to your head, forcing you to pull the trigger, and then the people who made you pull the trigger say you did it to make them look bad?

They should turn this over to NATO too,

Last edited by lynn; June-12th-2006 at 07:08 PM.
lynn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June-12th-2006, 07:05 PM   #2
Monte Smith
************
 
Monte Smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manchester United States of America
Posts: 15,521
Quote:
Originally Posted by lynn
Can anyone explain to me what asymmertic warfare is? Is thit like someone making you hold a gun to your head, forcing you to pull the trigger, and then the people who made you pull the trigger say you did it to make them look bad?
No. Asymmetric warfare describes conflict between two radically unevenly matched sides, in this case a nation with the capabilities of a conventional military force against a non-state terror group with only unconventional capabilities. Like suicide bombings or similar stunts.
Monte Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June-12th-2006, 07:17 PM   #3
lynn
End The War
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,947
Tell me what kind of conflict do they have at Gitmo. Hunger strikes.

Sounds more like dispair to me. But I'm glad some military strategist was able to come up with some twisted rationalization to describe the actions of men who see no future and have no contact with the outside world.

And how does the Bush administration plan to distance themselves from their own policy. Pin it on the Democrats?
lynn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June-12th-2006, 09:34 PM   #4
jazzbluescat
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
What would clear this Gitmo shit up real quick is if they would have a probable cause hearing in public, right out in plain sight. That probably won't happen because the defendants are being held because there is actual probable cause for their detention; the defense lawyers wouldn't allow it. From the thousands of suspects investigated, only the few hundred now being held at Gitmo were found to be probable enemy combatants. These people are "new age" soldiers that will not denounce fighting this jihad. Fact is, a couple were released and went on to assassinate and fight[according to some guy on NPR, nobody contradicted him]. So, why should these people be released right in the middle of a war? Soldiers that were captured in any of the previous wars were held prisoners until the wars were over. These people should be treated as military type soldiers, be held until there is international recognition of a resolution that this jihad is over, or until they die of old age. Fuck'em, sorry.

Last edited by jazzbluescat; June-12th-2006 at 09:37 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old June-12th-2006, 09:54 PM   #5
Monte Smith
************
 
Monte Smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manchester United States of America
Posts: 15,521
There was a wonderful review in the London Review of Books this week about a former Guantanamo prisoner named Begg, who has written a book. The LRB airily dismisses any reasons the US could have for holding this man and taunts America for thinking Begg could be a danger, "as though he was a blackbelt in jujitsu and spoke eight languages." As the book states, he's a blue belt in jujitsu and a green belt in taekwando and only speaks five languages. He also happened to have travelled to Chechnya, Bosnia, Kashmir, and Afghanistan, where he didn't stay at the Holiday Inn. By his own account (its his book) he stayed with jihad soldiers in their camps and barracks. But he claims never to have been a jihadist himself--just a crazy knack for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, I guess. Could happen to anyone. I hope he's been tagged.
Monte Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June-12th-2006, 10:49 PM   #6
Pedantic Wretch
Registered User
 
Pedantic Wretch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Terra firma
Posts: 656
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monte Smith
There was a wonderful review in the London Review of Books this week
Is this a publication you regularly consult? Do you mind that by purchasing it, you are subsidising an organ of Anti-Americanism (of the sort which caused the Stanford literary critic Marjorie Perloff indignantly to withdraw her subscription in the letters page after Sept. 11th, making an entertaining fool of herself in the process)?

Are not the combined forces of the LRB and those volumes of Brecht enough to sway you even slightly from Cheney-cheerleaderism?

(On second thoughts, the LRB is rather a tepid publication [I only look at the free bits online], and I suppose some people skip over the more political pieces.)

Last edited by Pedantic Wretch; June-12th-2006 at 11:14 PM.
Pedantic Wretch is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June-13th-2006, 08:29 AM   #7
Monte Smith
************
 
Monte Smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manchester United States of America
Posts: 15,521
PW, don't worry about my economic support being lent to the LRB. Despite six years of fundamentalist theocracy, there are still libraries in America. Although this seems to be known only to a select few. I guess it's always been this way. As the LRB itself notes in a review of Anglo-Saxon and ancient literacy this week, the library at Alexandria, greatest of the Hellenistic world, managed to get itself destroyed without generating much contemporary comment. We don't actually know what happened to it. But I'm sure it was a proto-Bush's fault.

This review of Begg is astoundingly uncurious. "What brought the inoffensive Begg to Guantanamo?" the reviewer asks breathlessly and suspecting he already knows the answer (Begg is a different religion than G.W. Bush). But what is not asked, and what I suspect it is the same question, is what brought Begg to the barracks of the Kateebah mujahedin in Bosnia? What brought Begg to the Chechen militants with a sack of cash? What brought Begg to a camp of militants in Kashmir in 1993? And what brought Begg to Taliban-controlled Kabul in Afghanistan, whence he fled only as the Northern Alliance entered? Tourism? Begg and his Respect Party co-author tell us Begg did all these things, but they seem to be a little light on the reasons why and the LRB is perfectly content to accept this explanatory void at face value:

"There is quite a lot which is not clear in [Begg's] Enemy Combatant...Poor editing and haste, rather than evasiveness, may well be the reason for some of the more confusing parts of the narrative." Ha.
Monte Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June-13th-2006, 09:03 AM   #8
rollhead
Quitting @ 10.4k
 
rollhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: New York state
Posts: 11,085
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monte Smith
PW, don't worry about my economic support being lent to the LRB. Despite six years of fundamentalist theocracy, there are still libraries in America.
Well, if you had anything to do with it, you would do away with public libraries, right, Monte?
rollhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June-13th-2006, 09:53 AM   #9
Monte Smith
************
 
Monte Smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manchester United States of America
Posts: 15,521
No. For then I should have to pay for books. Enlightened self-interest, you see.
Monte Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June-13th-2006, 11:11 AM   #10
Scott Dolan
banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 0

Quote:
Originally Posted by Satan
Despite six years of fundamentalist theocracy, there are still libraries in America.

Yes but they're *gulp*........[whisper]watching us[/whisper]
Scott Dolan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June-13th-2006, 11:14 AM   #11
Pedantic Wretch
Registered User
 
Pedantic Wretch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Terra firma
Posts: 656
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monte Smith
Despite six years of fundamentalist theocracy, there are still libraries in America...

This review of Begg is astoundingly uncurious. "What brought the inoffensive Begg to Guantanamo?" the reviewer asks breathlessly and suspecting he already knows the answer (Begg is a different religion than G.W. Bush). But what is not asked, and what I suspect it is the same question, is what brought Begg to the barracks of the Kateebah mujahedin in Bosnia? What brought Begg to the Chechen militants with a sack of cash? What brought Begg to a camp of militants in Kashmir in 1993? And what brought Begg to Taliban-controlled Kabul in Afghanistan, whence he fled only as the Northern Alliance entered? Tourism?
Good to hear about the libraries; in Britain, underfunding of public libraries and an obsession with offering access to computers instead of books has led to their general decline - is the same trend visible in America?

As for Begg, I have not read that review or the book in question, but from what I do know of his story, there was no legitimate charge that could have been made against him, nor are the facts you cite of any a priori relevance. The indefinite holding of prisoners without trial (not to mention torturing them) is indefensible in any case, and the phenomenon of Guantánamo makes a mockery of any claims for the supposedly civilised values of American 'democracy'.
Pedantic Wretch is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June-13th-2006, 11:18 AM   #12
Coda
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,365
It isn't just Gitmo, those Canadians are gleefully torturing their own batch of suspects:

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...l=968793972154
Coda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June-13th-2006, 11:19 AM   #13
Scott Dolan
banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedantic Wretch
Good to hear about the libraries; in Britain, underfunding of public libraries and an obsession with offering access to computers instead of books has led to their general decline - is the same trend visible in America?

Not around here.

They tend to focus on both in our libraries.
Scott Dolan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June-13th-2006, 12:57 PM   #14
Monte Smith
************
 
Monte Smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manchester United States of America
Posts: 15,521
I'd disagree with Scott and say the same computer bug that afflicts British libraries is visible in our own, PW. I know that, for instance, when I checked on Professor Biven's book in the local library, I was offered an "electronic file" which I would be able either to "view" or to "check out for four hours." Either option hardly rises above an insult. In many ways, technology is the enemy of literacy. But not in all ways.

As for Begg, and the other Gitmo captives, they are being held in a war and not in a police investigation. I shouldn't expect "charges."
Monte Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June-13th-2006, 02:06 PM   #15
claude
Registered User
 
claude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: New Brunswick
Posts: 2,325
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monte Smith
As for Begg, and the other Gitmo captives, they are being held in a war and not in a police investigation. I shouldn't expect "charges."
What country has this "war" been declared against?
claude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June-13th-2006, 02:23 PM   #16
Scott Dolan
banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 0
The one they attacked.
Scott Dolan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June-13th-2006, 03:44 PM   #17
claude
Registered User
 
claude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: New Brunswick
Posts: 2,325
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coda
It isn't just Gitmo, those Canadians are gleefully torturing their own batch of suspects:

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...l=968793972154
At least the question as to the legality of the process is going to the supreme court.
claude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June-13th-2006, 03:50 PM   #18
Coda
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 1,365
Did you read about the size of the cells they're forced to live in? My God, Gitmo is like a palace in comparison. And those cells wern't just built yesterday, just how much torture has been going on up there? Shit, you keep the lights on??!!
Coda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June-13th-2006, 04:00 PM   #19
claude
Registered User
 
claude's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: New Brunswick
Posts: 2,325
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coda
Did you read about the size of the cells they're forced to live in? My God, Gitmo is like a palace in comparison. And those cells wern't just built yesterday, just how much torture has been going on up there? Shit, you keep the lights on??!!
Those are just normal living conditions up here
claude is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June-15th-2006, 08:24 AM   #20
Brian Olewnick
Unflappable
 
Brian Olewnick's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Jersey City, NJ
Posts: 15,849
Lengthy front page article on Begg in today's NYT:

June 15, 2006
Jihadist or Victim: Ex-Detainee Makes a Case

By TIM GOLDEN
When President Bush ordered Moazzam Begg's release last year from the Guantánamo prison camp, United States officials say, he did so over objections from the Pentagon, the C.I.A. and the F.B.I. — all of which warned that Mr. Begg could still be a dangerous terrorist.
But American officials may not have imagined the sort of adversary Mr. Begg would become in the war of perception that is now a primary front in the American-led campaign against terrorism.
"The issue here is: Apply the law," Mr. Begg told an audience earlier this spring at the Oxford Literary Festival in England, one of many stops on a continuing lecture tour. "If I've committed a crime, we say, take this to court. After all of that, if they can't produce something in court, then shame on them!"
With a new book about his experiences and a small blizzard of media attention, Mr. Begg, a 37-year-old Briton of Pakistani descent, has emerged over the last few months as a minor celebrity in his home country.
Human rights groups have hailed his courage. University students have invited him to speak. Journalists have generally taken at face value his claim that he is an innocent man, unlawfully seized and arbitrarily held. After the three suicides at Guantánamo last Saturday, Mr. Begg instantly became a sought-after commentator for British newspaper and television reporters.
The respectful reception for Mr. Begg — whom the Pentagon still portrays as a terrorist — is one of many markers of the waning credibility of Washington's detention policies overseas, and particularly in European countries that are closely allied with the United States in fighting terrorists.
A British feature film that is to be released in the United States on June 23, "The Road to Guantánamo," depicts another group of former detainees as innocent, good-natured men cruelly mistreated by their American captors. The British attorney general, Peter Goldsmith, recently called the prison "unacceptable" and said it should be shut down.
Whether Mr. Begg is the potential threat the Pentagon claims or the harmless man he professes to be cannot be fully resolved from the available evidence. But the mystery makes Mr. Begg one of the more intriguing case studies in the trans-Atlantic divide on detention policy.
He and another Briton, Feroz Abbasi, were among the first six Guantánamo detainees designated by Mr. Bush in 2003 as eligible for trial by military commissions there. Pentagon officials say Mr. Begg trained at three terrorist camps, "associated" with an array of operatives of Al Qaeda and was ready to fight American-led forces in Afghanistan but fled into the Tora Bora mountains when the Taliban lines collapsed.
The British government's refusal to accept the Guantánamo tribunals, in which rights of due process are sharply limited, eventually forced American officials to set aside the prosecutions of Mr. Begg and Mr. Abbasi. Officials said they and two other Britons were finally sent home, in January 2005, after Mr. Bush overruled most of his senior national security advisers as a favor to Prime Minister Tony Blair, who was then being harshly criticized for his support of the Iraq war.
Now, the Bush administration finds itself in the awkward position of insisting on the danger of a man it set free. "He has strong, long-term ties to terrorism — as a sympathizer, as a recruiter, as a financier and as a combatant," said a Defense Department spokesman, Bryan Whitman.
In interviews in Britain and in his memoir, which is to be published in the United States on Sept. 11 as "Enemy Combatant: My Imprisonment at Guantánamo, Bagram and Kandahar," Mr. Begg denied that he ever supported terrorism, knowingly associated with Qaeda members or took up arms against the United States. Rather, he offers himself as evidence that the wide American net had trapped many Muslims who never threatened United States interests.
A Professorial Air
A small, soft-spoken man with a professorial air, Mr. Begg has distinguished himself from other former prisoners partly by his tone.
While others have told (and, in some cases, sold) the British press lurid tales of American interrogators' tempting them with prostitutes and torturing them to confess, Mr. Begg avoids the word torture. He was sometimes badly mistreated, he says, and kept in prolonged isolation. But he makes a point of telling audiences of his friendships with some of his military police guards, and he espouses a tolerance that seems incompatible with the hatred of militants to whom American officials link him.
One British interviewer described Mr. Begg as "devastatingly reasonable."
Of nearly 20 American military and intelligence officials who were interviewed about Mr. Begg, none thought he had been wrongly detained. But some said they doubted that he could be tied to any terrorist acts. At Bagram, where he was held for 11 months, Mr. Begg's interrogators nicknamed him Hemingway.
"I don't think he was the mastermind of 9/11, but nor do I think he was just an innocent," said Christopher Hogan, a former military interrogator who oversaw some of Mr. Begg's early questioning there but said he did not have access to top-secret American or British intelligence files on him. "We compared him to somebody who went off to Spain during the civil war — more of a romantic than some sort of ideologically steeled fighter."
Like other military and intelligence personnel familiar with Mr. Begg's interrogations, Mr. Hogan also described him as having been unusually forthcoming. "He provided us with excellent information routinely," he said.
Yet if Mr. Begg is a more ambiguous figure than the Bush administration now describes, the story of his life before he was seized in Pakistan in January 2002 is also more complicated than the account he has put forward, and full of questions.
Like many from Europe who fell in with Islamic militants in the 1990's, Mr. Begg was a son of immigrants who settled in a working-class environment where economic struggles fueled racial prejudice.
During high school in Birmingham, the industrial capital of the English Midlands, he joined a gang of mostly South Asian teenagers who banded together against skinheads, punk rockers and other anti-immigrant legions of the day. Mr. Begg, who now stands 5-foot-3, was the smallest member of the gang; he said he rarely joined in the fights.
But much of his upbringing did not fit the pattern. His family was relatively comfortable and liberal. His father, a Muslim born in India, was a bank manager who wrote poetry in Urdu. He sent Moazzam and his brother to a Jewish primary school, where they wore blazers with the Star of David.
Inspired by Mujahedeen
Moazzam's interest in Islam was awakened during a trip with relatives to Pakistan and Saudi Arabia in his late teens. On a second visit to Pakistan in late 1993, he writes, he crossed into Afghanistan with some young Pakistanis and visited a camp where mujahedeen rebels were training to fight the Soviet-backed Afghan government.
Inspired by the guerrillas' commitment, he threw himself into helping besieged Muslims in Bosnia and Herzegovina. He said he traveled to the Balkans 9 or 10 times with a small aid agency, Convoy of Mercy. But the group's founder, Asad Khan, said he had no recollection of Mr. Begg.
Defense Department officials said one of Mr. Begg's former associates was Omar Saeed Sheikh, who volunteered on a Convoy trip in 1993. Mr. Sheikh was later convicted of kidnapping Western tourists in India and is facing execution in Pakistan for the murder of the Wall Street Journal correspondent Daniel Pearl. Mr. Begg insisted he did not know Mr. Sheikh.
There are some notable gaps in Mr. Begg's memoir. The book does not mention that while working as an interpreter at a government welfare office in 1994, he and a friend were arrested and charged with defrauding the agency. The police found a night-vision sight, a bullet-proof vest and what news reports called "extremist literature" at Mr. Begg's home.
The charges against him were later dropped for lack of evidence, but his friend, Shahid A. Butt, pleaded guilty and served 18 months in prison. Mr. Butt was later convicted with seven other Britons of plotting a terrorist bombing in Yemen, where he served a five-year sentence.
In early 1998 Mr. Begg, by then married, with two small children, moved his family to Peshawar, Pakistan, on the border with Afghanistan. He describes the period as idyllic, with evening strolls through a local park and a quick trip to visit another training camp in Afghanistan, this one run by Iraqi Kurds. He and his wife socialized primarily with members of the town's small Palestinian community, as well as some Arab and Afghan veterans of the anti-Soviet jihad.
But the book does not mention one Palestinian friend, Khalil Deek, who also lived in Peshawar at the time. The United States 9/11 commission described Mr. Deek, a naturalized American, as an associate of Abu Zubaydah, a senior Al Qaeda lieutenant of Palestinian descent who was also in Peshawar then, recruiting new operatives and sending them to train at Afghan camps.
An American counterterrorism official who began tracking Mr. Begg in 1999 said the Central Intelligence Agency and MI5, Britain's domestic intelligence service, suspected Mr. Begg of working with Mr. Deek to create a CD-ROM version of a terrorist manual, "Encyclopedia of Jihad," which Mr. Deek gave to two Palestinians who plotted with Mr. Zubaydah to bomb tourist sites in Jordan.
American intelligence officials also said Mr. Deek helped arrange transportation to Jordan for some operatives in the foiled plot, but after being held in Jordan for 17 months, he was released without charge.
Mr. Begg acknowledged in an interview that he had met Mr. Deek in Bosnia and later invested with him in a small business deal to sell traditional Pakistani clothing. But he said he had never met Abu Zubaydah — something Pentagon officials said he had admitted to his American interrogators.
He also denied an assertion by Mr. Whitman, the Pentagon spokesman, that he spent five days in early 1998 at Derunta, a notorious Al Qaeda-affiliated training camp in Afghanistan, learning about poisons and explosives.
Two Defense Department officials read to a reporter from what they said were lengthy sworn statements Mr. Begg made to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, admitting that he had supported jihad in Chechnya and Kashmir, knew a half-dozen Al Qaeda figures and had trained at Derunta and two other Afghan camps.
Mr. Begg said that he had never told the F.B.I. anything of the sort, but that he did sign some documents in custody because he feared for his life.
After he returned to Birmingham in the summer of 1998, he and a friend opened an Islamic bookstore, which he described as a meeting place for young Muslims, including some who later fought in the separatist struggle in Kashmir.
Mr. Begg received a first visit from an officer of MI5 soon after the shop opened. A year later, in late 1999, dozens of police agents searched the book shop and Mr. Begg's home. They were raided again in February 2000, and Mr. Begg was arrested under the Prevention of Terrorism Act, but was quickly released without charge.
'It Was Going Too Far'
Mr. Whitman, at the Defense Department, said the British government cited Mr. Begg's "proven or suspected links to persons who have been arrested or convicted of terrorist offenses worldwide," including Richard C. Reid, who was later convicted of trying to blow up a trans-Atlantic flight with a shoe bomb. Mr. Begg said he had never met Mr. Reid or two other men, Ibn al-Shekh al-Libi and Abu Qatada, whom Pentagon officials linked to him.
"Up until this time I had thought it was all just a silly mistake or a fishing trip," Mr. Begg wrote of the security services' interest in his activities, "but now I knew it was going too far."
He said in an interview that he had never even heard of Al Qaeda before 9/11. He knew something about Osama bin Laden, he said, but generally agreed with those who saw Mr. bin Laden's conflict with the United States as counterproductive for Muslims. He said he opposed attacks against civilians but saw justification for jihadi assaults on "military targets" in "times of war."
In July 2001, little more than a year after his brief arrest, Mr. Begg moved his wife and children to Afghanistan. Despite the Taliban's status as an international pariah for its treatment of women and its hospitality toward Al Qaeda, the Beggs saw it as a fine, inexpensive place to raise a family. The memoir describes Mr. Begg's work on charity projects and his fascination with the atmosphere of Kabul. But without television, he writes, he did not grasp the enormity of the Sept. 11 attacks. Only when bombs and cruise missiles began to strike on Oct. 17 did he realize "it was time to go."
But, he said, he became separated from his family and reunited with them only after he crossed the border to Pakistan. They had been in Islamabad only a couple of months when, on Jan. 31, 2002, Pakistani intelligence agents and C.I.A. officers burst into their home, pulled a hood over his head and took him away.
Mr. Begg's memoir recounts a three-year odyssey from a safe house in Pakistan to a prison camp in Kandahar, Afghanistan, to the main military prison at Bagram Air Base and finally to Guantánamo. He describes endlessly repetitive interrogations, with soldiers sometimes demanding information about events that took place after his capture.
Even now, he says, the accusations against him remain maddeningly vague.
"There is no specific allegation; there are no specific charges," he said in one interview. "Whom did I recruit? When did I recruit them? Who told them this? What is the corroborating information — names, times, places?"
After repeated questions about Mr. Begg by The New York Times, Pentagon officials offered some information they said had been declassified from intelligence files. Mr. Whitman said the files showed Mr. Begg to be "a sympathizer, a recruiter and a financier" for terrorists. But officials offered almost nothing to corroborate such assertions other than excerpts they read from the F.B.I. statements.
Still, Mr. Begg has hardly been ignored by the administration. Earlier this year, a State Department public diplomacy official, Colleen P. Graffy, challenged his supporters, saying, "Guantánamo is not a spa, but nor is it an inhumane torture camp." The department's little-known Office of Countermisinformation has also sought to refute Mr. Begg's claims.
But other American officials said their secrecy about the detainees was partly responsible for having Mr. Begg's version of events accepted as credible.
"This has been the story of our lives here in trying to convince the world about the propriety of keeping people in Guantánamo," said one senior administration official in Washington, who asked not to be named because he was criticizing government policies. "It's been difficult to persuade all U.S. government agencies to release enough information publicly to show that individuals like Begg represent a significant threat."
Brian Olewnick is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June-15th-2006, 08:38 AM   #21
Gary Sisco
The Bluegrass
 
Gary Sisco's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: no country for old men
Posts: 30,835
From Sullivan's site:

I've long discovered that many Americans don't want to know what's going on in Gitmo or elsewhere in the law-free, non-Geneva military prisons set up by Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bush and Gonzales. We know that many inmates at Gitmo have no credible evidence against them and no way to get a fair trial. We know thaht many are there because of evidence procured through torture. Yes, some are also the worst form of Jihadist murderers, and they deserve to be detained indefinitely. But many aren't. And we have no sane procedures to distinguish between the two. We also know that some prisoners have been tortured and abused, and many are regularly assaulted, or "IRFed", for often minor infractions. If you don't know much about the process of "IRFing," read this. Eric Umansky has another excellent post on the subject. A lawyer for one of the prisoners met with his client shortly after such an "IRFing":


One of our clients was a mess. He'd been IRF'd a couple of days before and he was sickening to behold. One eye was swollen shut, the other a deep black and blue. Contusions all over his body, cuts on his head and legs. He couldn't swallow and could barely talk. The "offense" meriting his forcible extraction was that he stepped over a line that they painted in his isolation cell.


What are those cells like? Eric debriefs a lawyer who's been there:


[T]he detainees who hanged themselves last week were in cells where "there's nothing on the ceiling and the meshing is far too small to allow a sheet or anything to be tied to it. They would have had to slowly strangulate themselves by wrapping a sheet around the toilet bowl or something like that."


That, according to a military spokesman, was a "good P.R. move." Those with no hope of trial, release or Geneva POW protections have gone on hundreds of hunger-strikes. Here is an account of what one individual, who was a teenager when picked up in Afghanistan, has been put through:


According to medical records obtained by TIME, a 20-year-old named Yusuf al-Shehri, jailed since he was 16, was regularly strapped into a specially designed feeding chair that immobilizes the body at the legs, arms, shoulders and head. Then a plastic tube, sometimes as much as 50% bigger than the type commonly used for feeding incapacitated patients, was inserted through his nose and down his throat - a procedure that can trigger nausea, bleeding and diarrhea.


This is America in the era of Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld. You can either look the other way or deal with it.
Gary Sisco is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June-15th-2006, 08:58 AM   #22
jazzbluescat
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
I was willing to give Mr. Begg the benefit of a doubt up until:
Quote:
He said in an interview that he had never even heard of Al Qaeda before 9/11.
I think that he is very slick, but there's still reason to believe that he is a terrorist collaborator, at least.
  Reply With Quote
Old June-15th-2006, 10:57 AM   #23
Scott Dolan
banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 0
On To The Point yesterday they were discussing the Guantanamo suicides and had Ruhel Ahmed on the show. He's a former prisoner that has made the movie Road To Guantanamo.

When Warren Ulney asked him why he was arrested Ahmed stated that he and his friends had gone to Pakistan for a wedding, but then ended up in Afghanistan hunkered down with the Taliban.

I couldn't stop snickering the rest of the night.
Scott Dolan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June-15th-2006, 11:23 AM   #24
Pedantic Wretch
Registered User
 
Pedantic Wretch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Terra firma
Posts: 656
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Dolan
I couldn't stop snickering the rest of the night.
Yes, because everyone in Afghanistan in 2001 must have been a terrorist. The Road to Guantanamo is well worth viewing, by the way (it was shown on TV here).
Pedantic Wretch is online now   Reply With Quote
Old June-15th-2006, 11:33 AM   #25
Scott Dolan
banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedantic Wretch
Yes, because everyone in Afghanistan in 2001 must have been a terrorist. The Road to Guantanamo is well worth viewing, by the way (it was shown on TV here).
No, because they went to Pakistan for a wedding, and oopsie boopsie, just happened to end up pinned down in Afghanistan with a bunch of Taliban.

Dagnabbit!!!
Scott Dolan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June-15th-2006, 11:34 AM   #26
Scott Dolan
banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 0
I can just see Billy Crystal saying "I hate it when that happens".
Scott Dolan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June-15th-2006, 11:54 AM   #27
rollhead
Quitting @ 10.4k
 
rollhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: New York state
Posts: 11,085
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Dolan
.

I couldn't stop snickering the rest of the night.
I am sure that torture and suicide -- especially of the innocent -- just send you into fits of hysterical laughter.
rollhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June-15th-2006, 12:01 PM   #28
jazzbluescat
Guest
 
Posts: n/a


The more I hear about these bozos the more I commend Bush and the military for not caving to some public's opinion and politically correct. There's no real protocol to follow here, it's got to be played by ear, like it's being done.

I don't buy in to their whining about being abused and tortured either. All this shit is really only their lawyers trying to get public sympathy. fuck'em
  Reply With Quote
Old June-15th-2006, 02:35 PM   #29
Monte Smith
************
 
Monte Smith's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Manchester United States of America
Posts: 15,521
I'm amazed at the number of captives who were in Afghanistan "accidentally." It's not that they were in Afghanistan for legitimate reasons and then accidentally swept up in a military offensive; no, they were "accidentally" in Afghanistan. That's never happened to me. I've never accidentally been in a country. It's got to be almost as rare as being that Muslim student from Germany or Britain or France who's so keen on getting the computer training in Taliban-controlled Kabul that they just don't offer in Europe. Or even as rare as the antiwar type who is going to question any fairy tale that a jihadist offers as testament to their gentleheartedness. C'mon.
Monte Smith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old June-15th-2006, 02:54 PM   #30
Scott Dolan
banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 0
Quote:
Originally Posted by Satan
It's got to be almost as rare as being that Muslim student from Germany or Britain or France who's so keen on getting the computer training in Taliban-controlled Kabul that they just don't offer in Europe. Or even as rare as the antiwar type who is going to question any fairy tale that a jihadist offers as testament to their gentleheartedness. C'mon.

Combine PW's statement with all the crickets you've heard from our fine anti-war types, and I think you just may have a case here, Monte.

I'm feeling a poll coming on.
Scott Dolan is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Lower Navigation
Go Back   Jazzcorner's Speakeasy > POLITICS, WORLD ISSUES & WORLD EVENTS

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
All material copyright 2009 jazzcorner.com