Larry Ochs

shrugs · July-10th-2003, 08:00 AM

In my estimation, Ochs is one of the top saxophonist-composers of the past 20 years. However, it seems he rarely gets any ink and if he does at all it is because of his involvement in ROVA. That is understandable since that group has played more live shows around the country than Och's What We Live. It does seem odd that in a small community that thrives on originality that a musician like Ochs doesn't get more attention. And come to think of it, the only time ROVA gets mentioned is when they are on tour. Pick up any of the ROVA cd's and often the best compositions are by Ochs. His playing in the recent John Lindberg band was top notch. A great example his appearance on Bounce where we get a taste of what the blues can be. His rough and fiery tenor also was a highlight of Glenn Spearmann's Double Trio. On many of these recordings, we also hear what may be one of the greatest sopranino players around. I think the members of ROVA and Anthony Braxton are holding down the fort in that department.

I guess the west coast guys will never get their due. ROVA, Vinny Golia, Glenn Horiuchi and even Horace Tapscott to a degree. It's almost like their music is taken for granted. "It will always be there when I really want to hear it....."

Vince Kargatis · July-10th-2003, 08:19 AM

Full agreement from here, shrugs! I'm a long-time Rova and Ochs fan, no question. What We Live is one of my favorite improv trios. Not sure I'm surprised at the lack of attention to Ochs though - primarily due to Rova overshadowing the media presence, but also because he's not a flashy player and won't catch the attention of musical "passers-by", so to speak.

I think Bounce is another Lindberg project, not Dave's (tho he's in it).

Jason Bivins · July-10th-2003, 08:21 AM

Thirded, for sheazy. And you're right, Dave, that ROVA gets little ink anyway. One of the great ensembles in the world, as far as I'm concerned. I'm still needing to pick up "The Neon Core," by Ochs though.

Paul B, let's hear from you.

shrugs · July-10th-2003, 08:23 AM

Vince, thanks for the correction on Bounce. I think that cd is hiding somehwere in my apartment. I know he isn't a flashy player but neither is Dunmall and Ochs can write circles around the bagpipe player.

July-10th-2003, 12:11 PM

Hey shrugs,

Instead whining about how your faves never get props, why not gimme some good Larry Ochs recommendations?

I only have Saxophone Diplomacy and the John Lindbergh disc "Tree Frog Tonality." Unless I'm forgetting something, those are the only discs with him I own.

What else should I be looking out for? (I say looking out for, because I'm not in a position to buy any new CDs for a while...)

shrugs · July-10th-2003, 12:23 PM

Instead of whining about not enough information ie rec's, try doing a search!

Paul B · July-10th-2003, 12:44 PM

Couldn't agree more about Ochs...He's more happening than many players (I won't name names) on the "downtown" scene in NY who get all the props but seem far less convincing, both as players and composers.

And shrugs is right: Ochs is essentially the main contributor of original compositions to Rova--and perhaps the group's driving force as far as their approach to improv and compostiion--with Adams and Raskin making up most of the rest. But all along he has done his own thing.

What We Live is great; their first, and eponymous, CD should be on everyone's shelf. The group's other albums have guest players, and are strong too.

Also, check out "The Secret Magritte," which is under Ochs' name but is essentially Rova with other players (including a wonderful Marilyn Crispell) playing a tightly woven and constructed piece that, like much of Rova, brings together new strategies for composition and improvisation.

Living on the west coast does, alas, seem to consign players like Ochs to a certain oblivion. I've been startled more than once back here in New York when, after asking a player if he knows Rova, I get a strange and quizzical glance. Well, if you don't know Rova, you don't know about a major part of contemporary improvised music. These guys have done more to move the music ahead than just about anyone from the past 25 years I could name. It's no wonder that people like Braxton and Lacy hold them in the highest esteem.

Bye-ya.

ryans · July-10th-2003, 03:51 PM

i agree completely. i don't think there is anyone who has put forth so much effort towards a group idea as ochs.

frankpop1 · July-10th-2003, 11:44 PM

Quote:

I guess the west coast guys will never get their due. ROVA

nor the midwest or euro's until they invaded ny.

rova is a perfect example. they never made a bad recording. they have a powerhouse discography and were virtually ignored.

meanwhile, the world sax 4tet only made about 1 good recording and never really conquered the sax 4tet format compositionally in my opinion. yet, they were discussed all the time.

walto · July-11th-2003, 03:34 PM

Agree completely about Ochs. A real talent.

LeMo · July-11th-2003, 08:48 PM

Even if Larry Ochs is more and more today the driving force of the trio, it was Ellis who, originally, was, the nominal "leader" (oops, sorry Jazztronauts for using that term) of "What We Live".

IMO, the best Larry Ochs album under his name is "The Neon Truth" (Black Saint) with two magnificient drummers, Scott Amendola and Ochs long time partner Donald Robinson.

I liked all What We Live at the sole exception of "What We Live Fo(u)r" (Black Saint) where the multiplication of guess drive the music in no direction at all (the two following records, with Douglas and Smith, are just the opposite: they are tasteful and the two trumpets player are perfectly integrated).

But my favorite of them all is their last, recorded on tour and publish on Ochs own's label, Metalanguage. Untitled "Especially The Traveller Tomorrow", it's one of the best live I've heard from years. The fourth cut (who give his name to the record) is a fascinating piece a little over thirty minutes long where Ochs is at the pick of his indisputable talent. The one to have (if you must have only one) and one of my favorite record of 2002.

Captain Hate · July-11th-2003, 09:04 PM

Add me to the ROVA appreciation society; plus at Gordon Blewis' recommendation I picked up "Bounce" in Montreal.

Vince Kargatis · July-12th-2003, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by LeMo
"Especially The Traveller Tomorrow", [...] The one to have (if you must have only one) and one of my favorite record of 2002.

I like the record, but would disagree with it as first choice - I'd say it's a bit more difficult and abstruse than the others (generally undesirable characteristics for a first rec). Nate Dorward, for example, quite dislikes this record, iirc (and panned it in Cadence). I'd go with Paul B's rec for the eponymous release on DIW.

Not disagreing with your assessment, LeMo, just the choice as first one to get...

Jason Bivins · July-12th-2003, 08:39 AM

Does anyone have any recent info about the supposedly forthcoming ROVA disc on Black Saint? And have there been any rumors about reissuing the remainder of the early Metalanguage albums - on the resuscitated Metalanguage, on Atavistic, elsewhere?

LeMo · July-12th-2003, 08:40 AM

Vince, I never wrote that "Especially The Traveller Tomorrow" is the first one to have but the one to have, if you want only one WWL.
But the "eponimous" "What We Live" on DIW is a fine and great choice for a first buy.
And, btw, what Nate Dorward like or not (and write or not), doesn't interest me a bit, Vince, believe me.

Vince Kargatis · July-12th-2003, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by LeMo
And, btw, what Nate Dorward like or not (and write or not), doesn't interest me a bit, Vince, believe me.

No, no, I certainly didn't invoke Nate as an "authority", just as an example of a naysayer (to be viewed statistically), in support of recommending hearing another of theirs first, that's all. In fact, I think that part of the reason Nate didn't like it was that he was, iirc, unfamiliar with the rest of their discog - that is, I think familiarity with the group and their methods does help especially with "hearing" ETTT. Imho.

Btw, since Jason mentioned it, who's selling the Metalanguages? I'm behind in some of my purchasing, and have heard that the SOCIAL and/or SCIENCE SETS are now out on cd? I haven't seen them listed anywhere...

LeMo · July-12th-2003, 02:07 PM

As far as I know, Metalanguage seems to be distributed by Cadence.
I got "Especially The Traveller Tomorrow" from them.

shrugs · July-14th-2003, 03:55 PM

Och's composition The Drift on ROVA's Resistance is a new favorite. The title track and one by Wadada Leo Smith are the only other two on the cd. I love getting a cd that isn't over 60 minutes. Seems so many are and usually there's fluff.
Don't read any reviews of this until you hear it! They give away an important part!!

Paul B · July-14th-2003, 04:03 PM

ROVA's "The Social Set" and "The Science Set" are indeed out on a two-CD set (I have a copy sitting at home); they were re-issued on Greg Goodman's Beak Doctor label.

Bye-ya

Clay Fink · July-14th-2003, 04:26 PM

"What We Live (Four)" I like a lot, actually. The cuts with Winant and Plimley are wonderful. Haven't heard the ones with Douglas ans Smith. Also check out violinist India Cooke's cd on Music & Arts (I think?). It's basically What We Live plus George Lewis and India Cooke. Nice!

The Spearman double trios are excellent. I've got "The Secret Magrette" but haven't been able to totally get into it (yet).

Vince Kargatis · July-14th-2003, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by shrugs
I love getting a cd that isn't over 60 minutes.

Perhaps you need to listen to more indie rock, shrugs? :) I seem to remember a large handful of recent acquisitions under 40 minutes... np finding Love Supreme-length albums in that genre!

Paul B: Ok, Beak Doctor - where to get them? Latest Cadence and Verge show nothing... Is there a direct outlet?

Paul B · July-14th-2003, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Beak Doctor - where to get them? Latest Cadence and Verge show nothing... Is there a direct outlet?

Not sure where to get them (Bruce Ackley of Rova gave me the copy I have), but I'll check and post what I find. I'm surprised Cadence doesn't stock them...

Bye-ya